 Poster: A snowHead
|
There's been a bit of discussion recently about piste gradings, with one man's (or woman's!!) blue being another's red or even black. Some of the discussion has focused on safety. For advanced skiers of course it's not that big a deal, the worst perhaps being disappointment at the lack of challenge. However for the less experienced, especially those of us at the lower end of the ability spectrum it really is a major consideration. Even if I succeed in moving on a reasonable way in Vallandry, I'd still not be able to go down even a blue run that I didn't know without taking advice on it first, because there is no apparent standard as to what "blue" means.
From the adult novice perspective, I'd really like to see a voluntary standard grading policy where gradient/width are taken into consideration. Resorts might be encouraged to display the maximum approximate gradient & min approx width; for example "Super-Duper"'; Blue, Max Gradient 15 degrees, Min Width 10m. "Extraordinaire, Blue, Max Grad 10, Min Width 4m.
I know that Xscape's slopes are 10/15 degrees, so I have a reasonable idea what that means (I like 10, I can do 15, but currently it is at the edge of my ability range). Additionally instructors could advise pupils to tackle anything up to Gradient x, width y. I suppose the possible drawback would be incompetent idiots who'd seek out the hardest challenge irrespective of their ability - but you can't do anything to stop that.
What do others think?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I think that people get too hung up on the colours. It's all subjective, and if you're having lessons the first thing you should do is trust your instructor. If you're out with friends, it's a little more difficult - nowadays I can judge whether an persona I'm skiing with will be able to cope but in the past I have led groups down runs where people have panicked. It's worth remembering though that they're usually okay until someone mentions the colour of the slope, at which point the mental bit kicks in and all bets are off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
The difficulty of a single piste can vary enormously with conditions, and the perceived difficulty can depend a lot on your past experience of a piste. Last year I skied a busy, blue slope with substantial mounds of loose snow on it which to my mind was more difficult than a steepish, black slope which was nearly deserted and had a firm surface. I've skied an icy red from Courchevel into Mottaret in a state of terror on one pair of skis and found it challenging but not scary on another pair of skis (in pretty much identical conditions). Like many people I'm a bit funny about edges, so "Extraordinaire, Blue, Max Grad 10, Min Width 4m, tree-lined" is much worse than "Extraordinaire, Blue, Max Grad 10, Min Width 4m, precipitous drop down one side"
Approaching new runs is pretty scary, and scoping runs out before skiing them is useful (that's one of the reasons I liked branching out for the first time in Val Thorens - there aren't any trees to hide the runs). Seeing other people skiing on them is particularly useful...
I think the bottom line is green, blue, red and black is probably about as accurate as piste grading can get.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
nbt, HappyMouffe and I skied our first black piste by accident!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
nbt, I take your point and I would (mostly) trust an instructor, though the first one I had took me down a slope way before I was ready for it - took 1hr to get me down 1100m - and at the start I believed I could do it, so it wasn't that - it really was too hard, given the icy/muddy conditions.
I'm fine with the colour, but would appreciate some sort of objective guideline, that the slope was within certain parameters so that, for example in the afternoons after lessons I'd know whether or not to trust the judgment of friends - just because they think a slope's easy......!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Butterfly, There are so many variables. It could be that it would be easier to take a skier down a Black run than a Blue, if say the Blue was icy, very busy, a few bald patches, than the Black that was empty with good snow. Steepness and width are not the only concerns, better to have good snow @25 degrees, than ice at 15 degrees.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Hoppo wrote: |
I think the bottom line is green, blue, red and black is probably about as accurate as piste grading can get. |
fine - if different countries/resorts agree on the definition!
Spyderman - that indeed is a good point. At what level though does one begin to be able to explore, say blue pistes, without having to rely on asking others what the piste is like today?
At least I am getting bold enough to be thinking of exploring one day, rather than just stick to the same one the instructor took me down 
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 8-02-08 20:37; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Butterfly, they didn't agree for us - they're not going to agree for you 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
The Santons blue in Val D'isere is much, much harder than the Trolles black 90% of the time due to the fact that moguls form on it almost instantly.
I guess that's my opinion but all my learner friends have experienced the same thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I’ve just been checking….. and the steep pitches on the reds were I ski are 31 degrees and on one of the black runs it’s 33 degrees the black is a black run because there are rocks on either side and the run is very narrow (at times). There is also a red run which is very shallow for most of it’s length with just one steepish narrow bit lasting no more than 50m. This is a red because once skied the only way down is via much steeper reds and blacks.
The grades are meant to be a guide for each resort. The difficulty of the run changes with the snow cover and condition. A black on good snow day can be easier to ski than an icy blue on another day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Butterfly,
| Quote: |
| hoping to do so by stimulation of conversation/argument |
We're friendly now, we don't do 'argument' anymore. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
So how would YOU grade pistes? Serious question from novice!!
|
Chuck beginners down and count how many come out crying at the bottom.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
They should do as with road signs in Irish counties: list the number of deaths in the last couple of years. It's the only objective system. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
You asked when you are fit to explore, I've now seen about 20 folks learn to ski during our various hols over the years - seems to me almost everyone has been comfortable to explore blues in decent conditions after an absolute max 3 weeks, icy conditions adds up to another week to that. Once you learn to sideslip, basicc parallels and a solid plough turn to fall back on as long as it isn't icy while you may not like it, you'll get down it cleanly enough. There is the odd exception, especially older skiers, and ime those folks know who they are, and accept they need to find trusted instructors or friends to guide them. Trying to grade for those folks (and I was one) is probably a dimishing returns type endeavour.
I used to strongly feel adding another colour would be handy and I still do - beginners are those that need the colours most so green, blue-green, blue, red, black makes sense to me, but in reality it's SOOO dependant on conditions, what your particular fears are, how you feel that day etc that resorts are never going to win. There are books you can buy that do run by run analysis, or you can use the internet, both these latter will let you avoid the truly badly graded pistes.
I can understand your reluctance to trust friends guidance btw, it's just a fact of life that when you reach a certain level you don't notice the 'bad' bits anymore. I have been firstly a very nervous intermediate, and then a very effective nervous skier guide (as I was still able to tell which slopes made me nervous), I now only offer guidance on runs if I have run them with said beginner in mind, as otherwise I find I am just no longer aware of the precipitous drop, wierd steep bit or funny cambered corner, or indeed on our last trip the apparently impossible powder bumps I hadn't even really noticed were there...
In short your experience of the mountain will be subjective not objective, and there is a limit to how much even the best objective data is going to help...
aj xx (p.s. for laughs you can go back and see how 2 years ago I was very definately on your side of the discussion  )
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
What do others think?
|
I think that by the time I'd worked it all out the lifts would have closed and the whole issue become moot. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
a.j., I like the idea of blue/green, but some places don't seem to understand "green"! I am delighted to see you remember being where I am now and also do understand that when you've moved on, you quickly forget what made bits seem scary. Even I remember that a year ago on my first ever ski lesson Xscape's nursery slope seemed terrifying - can't imagine why now .
You also mention camber. What my instructor AND friends deemed easy was horrendous to me in Serbia because it had a camber - I was (ok - still tend to be!) so slow that a slope with a camber meant I had REAL issues with travelling downhill across it any faster than at a creep because of fear of going off the far edge, so there was a vicious circle, as of course I had too little speed with which to turn and make any progress the other direction, which as well as being across the piste was uphill too.
I just can't wait to be able to cruise happily down just ONE decent length slope for the 1st time and really hope it happens this year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
For me a simple improvement would be for each piste to carry a Max gradient % posted on the map, and at the bottom of the lift. After all if you are looking for a challenge you want to know how exciting it's going to get, and if you are a nervous beginner you want to know how bad. It's not the 90% of the blue run that scares you its THAT STEEP BIT at the top/middle/bottom that give you the old tightened sphincter. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
AxsMan, ah but, it's also THAT STEEP BIT that will put the nervous right off doing the run in the first place. Under the current scheme we just say to them "don't worry it doesn't get any worse than what you can see at the top" and they'll happily trundle along behind you, then when you hit the steep bit they have no choice but to do it
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Quote: "Extraordinaire, Blue, Max Grad 10, Min Width 4m, tree-lined"
I think a system similar to this would be very useful, but with the addition of some kind of board at the top to describe conditions on that day. Ok could be a pain if you got to the top, realised you didn't feel comfortable doing it and it was the only way down but you take that risk as it is! Also another flaw in my plan is that if the pisteurs could be arsed doing it, or only did it in the local language. One run that scared the life out of me was according to my piste map a blue (the top of ranfoilly in les gets) I got to the top and it was just scarily steep, to later find out on another piste map the top section was shown as red!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Butterfly, although I understand your points about the desire for more consistent piste information I think the idea of increased signage on the slopes is one most would be against.
Whenever I'm in the mountains, summer or winter, I'm aware that we are guests in this beautiful enviroment. The visual impact of uplift infrastructure is already significant - especially in summer.
I sense from your posts that you are relativly new to skiing - taking your first steps on that beautiful road from Butterfly to Caterpillar  and without meaning to sound patronising, one of the most satisfying and significant landmarks on that journey is when one starts to get enough mountaincraft knowledge to take responsibility for ones own safety. Reading this back, and your OP, I do sound patroninsing....  Truth is, in climbing and mountaineering the less experienced employ a guide, as the dangers are so obvious, but skiing is deceptivly 'safe' and I've known people launch themselves down the mountain without a single lesson, on their own, devil may care. What's that? Courageous or foolhardy?
you're taking lessons when you go - I saw your post re NewGen - and that's got to be the sensible way to go. Build up that experience under professional supervision until you feel the urge to strike out on your, blue runs dispatched with aplomb and the scary but compelling world of Reds calling you, irresitably...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
a.j., yeah - good post....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The camber comment is how you know I still haven't forgetten the fear - if I ski something with a view to the nervous I can tell you if they will find it scary or not - I just (joy is me!) no longer find it scary myself.
It will come, I'm living proof! I may never be as gung ho as the boys (and I HATE bad vis still) but I realised half way down an unintentional ice mogulled black last week, that instead of being in tears I was in fact laughing and trying to chase my other half to hit him with my poles for leading us down it, and it might be time to admit I'm not quite the nervous intermediate I think of myself as anymore
I've seen friends I thought would never get it make remarkable turnarounds, and seemingly once you get it, the hours you spent getting there do pay off, because us ex-nervous folks seems to come on much faster for a while once you break through that initial problem.
Think positive!
aj xx
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
My personal opinion... piste maps and piste grading is always going to be a flakey subjective thing and is only ever a guideline. I'd suggest IF you can't comfortably ski blue pistes then you should really still be taking lessons (is it contentious to suggest that until you can comfortably ski 'most' reds you should also still be taking lessons?) ... one of the advantages of a lessons is that the instructor will show you round the resort and guide you to pistes that are suitable to YOUR ability... That way, when you ski outside of the lesson, you should be able to go to a view familiar runs to improve your skills and confidence for the next days lessons. If they feel you are ready, they will take you to a 'flattering' red, so you can gain some confidence and it will make even the harder blues feel less challenging. As you are ready they will build your confidence and ability to ski most reds. In general, once you are comfortable on reds, you can always get round most resorts no problem (it being very difficult to travel round a resort solely on greens, and still a challenge to link a bunch of blues together). If you choose NOT to have lessons, then you really should be skiing with a 'friend' who you trust to take you to places within your ability.
Of course, conditions and number of skiers on piste can make the piste feel harder than it is ... but lets be fair, IF you are at the point where you are exploring the resort and get caught out (say by a slightly harder red, or worse conditions making the red feel harder) you really need to be at a point in the learning curve where you can side slip and get yourself out of trouble...
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Until my most recent holiday (early Jan), I was terrifed of blacks (after a few experiences a few years ago, maybe refer to thread on Harikiri), I then had a lesson with easiski in LDA, during which whe took me down something pretty steep (between valentin and sapins if you know LDA). Anyhow, after that, I skiied every black with ease... I reckon after a bit of skiing and when you have sound technique its all about fear, if you can ski in control down a steep red, I reckon you can get down a black. If anyone comments on people without sound technique...this is when I reckon instructor is a good idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
red 27, Richie_S, yes, I am indeed taking lessons and intend to do so whenever I can, however when chances of short weekend breaks come up (as one may do end of March), lessons may not be an option and relying on friends' perceptions might be all I can do. I do realise that piste conditions alter day-to-day, and that in any resort an expert might say all blues are equal but novices know some blues are more equal than others (with apologies to George Orwell!).
On the topic of lessons, NewGen yesterday contacted me saying they regretfully have had to cancel my lessons due to being short of an instructor! They are booking me in with ESF instead - not at all sure how I feel about that! It means I'll be in lessons 3hrs a day instead of 2 and in a larger group - I just hope I can keep up and they don't throw me off the course for failing to make the progress the rest of the group want to make.
KateF, I am having a lesson or two in L2A with EasiSki in June!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
When you've skied Goose Gully on an Ice Day you'll understand how grading can't cover everything!
I don't really see how grading can get away from having at least some relative factor for a given area. If you try to impose an absolute system, some resorts would have only green and blue, some only red and black. This would end up not telling you anything about what was the most challenging terrain on offer, or at the other end of the scale what was the easiest way down the mountain.
What would have some merit I think is having a standard in terms of number of grades, I think in places using just 3 the range in the terrain in the easier classification is often to wide.
A recurring theme in these threads on here seems to be a call for more grades. What about adopting a single range of grades:
Green
Blue
Red
Black (Diamond and extra diamonds as merited. Doesn't Craigieburn in NZ have Triple black diamonds graded as Suicidal!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Butterfyl (don't understand how to make to text black to show i'm replying to you), Glad you're having some lessons with easiski, she really is very good and I would recommend her to anyone - in my experience as much as 1 hour of easiski tuition is easily worth more than 2-3 -4 (infinte) hours of ESF.
My problem was confidence and i used to ski too much on 2 skis and she fixed that in 2 lessons (not that im a great skiier now, but have the confidence to do any black now); my boyfriend was a 'one piece skiier' as she put it - which was solved in about one hour of her lessons. HOpe all goes well!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
KateF, two ways to make the text bold - click on the person's name on the left of their message and it automatically enters it for you in bold - you will see that it surrounds it with a control character of b in square brackets to start the bold text and /b to switch off the bold again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Experienced skiers would probably prefer runs graded by the overall difficulty/average gradient etc, with perhaps a weighting for the most difficult significant pitch. However learners need a grading system that reflects the latter in order to ensure their safety. The alternative is a more complex and sophisticated grading system which offers all this info and up to and including dynamic notices with day-to-day or time of day variations in conditions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Butterfly, Thanks! - assume you're gonna be in LDA with easiski - have fun, she is an excellent ski-coach (never actually had a better and more effective ski teacher) - might even see you there - not sure i can cope a whole season withot skiing so may try some summerski in LDA
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Butterfly, I fully appreciate where you are coming from... all blues are definately not equal and when my gf ,now wife, was learning this point was definately hammered home! However, I don't think the ski resorts need to or should do anything more than they are doing today... this is just part of learning to ski... take lessons, learn to read a slope, learn how to get yourself out of trouble, go with trustworthy friends who will take you to pistes within your ability (not what they think you can manage) and over a period of time it won't be a problem. My wife was maybe 5 weeks of boarding before I (or her) felt happy that if I left her to find her own way on the mountain she wouldn't get caught out by a run she couldn't get down (other than the blacks which you know to avoid)
The only answer to all of this is more time on the slopes and in a relatively short period of time, it will not be a problem... all of which can only be a good thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
we just say to them "don't worry it doesn't get any worse than what you can see at the top" and they'll happily trundle along behind you, then when you hit the steep bit they have no choice but to do it
|
I know a ski instructor who makes a nice living from restoring the confidence of people whose 'friends' have done that to them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Lizzard, I am surprised there aren't more instructors who advertise that they specialise in confidence restoration! I am making it perfectly plain to whoever it is that I am going to end up with in ESF next week that this is what I need, and failing that I shall rely on my summer trip to L2A.
KateF, we are going to be in L2A 21-28th June. When the main season's drawing to a close I am going to start a thread asking if there are others of a similar standard to me who fancy forming a little group for Easkski to work on that week! I hope after next week's TLC from ESF, my standard will have risen a bit though!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think a board with run conditions for the day is posssible - it would have to be modified 3 or 4 times a day. Often the difference between morning and late afternoon is much greater than from day to day. For example when the sun is hot over a few days but it freezes overnight (as it generally does with clear skies) pistes will tend to be icy in the morning till the sun softens them, and perhaps a bit slushy in later afternoon. Also heavy traffic can expose old ice quite quickly. (And moguls can develope very quickly too.) I don't know if runs that have a greater tendency to get icy are ever given a tougher grade? Other than runs which are deliberately allowed to develope big moguls, it seems to me this is the only case where the argument about conditions being the most important factor are relevant to the discussion.
Resorts do tend to use gradings to indicate which is the toughest or easiest way down a particular face. They also like to have a full range of easy to difficult grading, regardless of the fact that one resort may have generally much tougher runs than another. I mentioned elsewhere that one run in Kitzbuhel was graded a black when in, for example, St Anton it might have been a blue. This was a combination of the generally easier nature of Kitzbuhel and the fact that the particular run was next to another which was very slightly easier - and they wanted to distinguish them. (By the way this was 15 years ago and the grades may have been changed).
Usually a piste is graded according to the hardest part but occasionally the considerations mentioned abovelead in the other direction, to situations such as at Val d'Isere where the supposed easiest run down to La Daille suddenly becomes more of a black on the last pitch (on the right as you look up). It is situations such as this that lead to lack of confidence in gradings.
But how long a "pitch" should count as the "tough" bit we grade it by? 10 yards? (I suspect II's 32º pitch on a red was something like that ) 50 yards? 100 yards? 200 yards?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
snowball, unless it has, on average got an awful lot better on average than when I was last at Val D'Isere, Verte should be graded at least red rather than green; the typical combination of boiler plate ice and trees and rocks merits it IMV.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't know if this can be a nominal guide against slope grading but it is another way to look at it.
Suppose an average skier would spend at least one full week in a skiing holiday in each year it is possible that he/she would become "comfortable" in the first year with the green, second year with the blue , third year with the red and would not in the fourth year reject going down some easy black runs as long as they are groomed.
There are of course skiers able to ski some black slopes in their first trip. However one can be in a "comfortable" position after 4 years of skiing 4 seasons continuously and the color of the slope while important would not be able to stop an average skier exploring the whole resort.
The condition of the slope is of course a big factor but that is more to do with experience and the use of skill. I don't think it is right to assume in any slope the grading is decided on the ideal/perfect snow condition. The weather can leave too much, inadequate or no snow on the piste but it is up to the individual to come up with the skill to overcome it.
Thus if a skier feel "uncomfortable" with any slope grading despite having done the corresponding number of seasons then he/she would need extra trips/practise.
The above is my observation/speculation for adult skiers who try to learn skiing late. Younger skiers are of course in a different category. I have a nephew who was too young to understand the instructions given to him and had to ski with a rope pulling by his dad behind in his first year. He was able to do all the slope the next year. In the third year he followed his elder brother charging down the black slopes in straight lines. Technical young children, who have short skis, small weights and low centres of gravity, find it very hard to ski fast. Slope grading to them is different to us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Hopefully you will get someone as kind & considerate 