 Poster: A snowHead
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It's obvious to all that race skis are getting longer and less turny (and softer?). Please can someone explain why this is?
I was told it was to protect peoples knees, but this makes no sense as surely there will be much larger twisting forces applied during a crash. Other idea was that it is to slow down the racers in order to make the sport safer. In which case why, if you're not racing to FIS level, would you go out and buy a pair of the new crop? surely the old ones would be quicker?
Finally, could someone still racing/coaching please explain how the skis handle differently (especially in GS), what's the best way to compensate for the change in radius? have courses or at least the lines within them evolved at all?
Thankyou for your time
MATT
(p.s. educated guesses are very much appreciated, but please if you don't know, dont bulls**t!! it doesnt help anyone)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dulcamara, are they? not obvious to me...but I don't race, I just ski on them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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under a new name, I've just seen your entire ski collection, horrified, 78mm the widest? I took a sneaky photo.
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From memory i think they've gone from 181 to 185 and are now all 190 cm and from 18m to 21m to 27m maybe its just to keep us guessing but still need the advice
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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dulcamara, It isn't obvious to me that race skis are getting longer, the length aspect of the regulations hasn't changed in quite a long time.
The newer ones do protect peoples knees, the problem with the previous generation of GS skis was that they could suddenly hook up and carve a smaller arc than you were expecting. I still use my older >21m skis for course inspection when I'm racing and for when I am coaching anything other than SL, I got high-sided this Easter when carrying stuff down the stade in Meribel, I haven't had any problems like this with my newer race skis.
One result of having different radius rules for men and women is that some manufacturers make more different sizes than before, this makes it easier to pick the ski to match your bodyweight.
I haven't noticed any difference in race courses and haven't needed to make any technique changes but skied several training courses last season that were too tight for >27m skis.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| From memory i think they've gone from 181 to 185 and are now all 190 cm and from 18m to 21m to 27m maybe its just to keep us guessing but still need the advice |
Nope, depends on the manufacturer but you can get 181cm >27m skis.
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Ahh ok I stand corrected but they are deffinitely not making it easier to make the turns!
Sounds like a plan to be honest Rjs, Having lost what little strength I had in the old legs I think i'll be moving for the shorter versions. How much do you weigh? Have you moved all the way up to 190s and how different are the varying lengths?
I was contemplating having to engage my edges a little further round the turn or have they softened up the skis to allow them to turn tight enough without the same kick?
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dulcamara, I weigh 75kg and am using 188cm Fischers which are the middle length of the three The new skis are easier to turn than the older ones, not harder.
What kind of races are you planning on doing ?
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It's just for club level races in Austria, instructor champs etc.. also will be needing a pair for my speed test at some point.
My old skis were knicked from the instructor hotel so i was looking for something a little softer as i'm not racing properly anymore and have discovered alcohol and lazyness!! I weigh about the same as you so I reckon the 185 sort of region may do.
Been working a 9-5 for the past year so not kept up to date. Have there been any changes in the shape of turns or are the skis pretty much doing the same job in a different way?
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http://www.skiracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3821&Itemid=2 - changes to width and radius for top-level racers were to reduce injuries. I don't think courses have widened out and we're seeing more stivot turns in WC than three or four years ago. For Eurotest or beer-league racing where the courses tend to be more offset to control speed go shorter and turnier, 180-185 in a 21m to 24m, you'll find they're quicker than the 190/27m boards as you'll be able to be cleaner through the turns.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Excellent! question 1 nicely answered.
If mr Bob is to be trusted over Rjs, this Raises another question, Where does one look to get a pair of shorter turn radius GS skis that will grip and kick nicely? any ski suggestions from the last few years? Found some old Factory skis but I have the feeling they will kick my ass! looking for the Race department type now.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sideshow_Bob, It would be worth checking whether the Eurotest will require >27m skis next season, it has followed FIS regulations until now.
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quick google, yup FIS regs
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You know it makes sense.
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rjs, not seen any radius regs for Eurotest, only length ( http://www.basi.org.uk/course_disc.aspx?did=9) . Do you have any links to the new regs? PITA if they have changed, I'll have to change skis if I ever get round to doing it.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 13-08-09 18:04; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| Have there been any changes in the shape of turns or are the skis pretty much doing the same job in a different way? |
One change is described here but I wouldn't worry about it unless you are below 30 points.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sideshow_Bob, That page isn't even a correct copy of FIS regulations from last season, the tolerance is -5cm not +/-.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hehe it's not been that long since I skied, seen that acrticle before, though that's just a general passage to do with the fact that skis are turning tighter now we have carving skis. might not be sub 30's material. Can I ask who you guys are? may have met before (its ok if you dont want to say online).
FIS regs are here http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/insidefis/fisgeneralrules/equipment.html incase anyone cares, in this case length is just a minimum length. Just skimmed through the austrian rules and i'm gonna take FIS rules to include the turn radius.
So >27's will probably be the best option... next question, looking for the softer/lighter/bouncier make, what do we suggest?
p.s. thanks for the help here, really appreciating it, felt a bit lost earlier
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I reckon it's a conspiracy, just like changing football shirts every season, it makes people keep buying new skis..... Down with the corperations!!!!
still which corperation has the best skis for me?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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primoz, Salomon made a 181 last season, there is an Atomic/Salomon 181 next season. The regulations have not changed that much, the >27m skis were brought in at WC level first, CoC the following year, then FIS two years later. Length requirements haven't changed since 2002.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| still which corperation has the best skis for me? |
What can you get deals on ?
Atomic/Salomon and Fischer are the brands that make three lengths, the rest just two if it helps.
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Rjs at least for WC they did. I'm (almost  ) 100% sure, last year GS skis were 190cm. Also with radius I think they are sticking with >27m for GS only 2009 and 2010, but before was >23m if I remember right. I didn't know about those 181cm, so thanks for info
Dulcamara I don't really consider this as conspiracy  For normal skiing I believe people would be just fine with 5 year old skis. I got new ones this year only because old ones (180cm >21m race stock women skis) were bad enough so it was time to change. Otherwise I would keep them for next few years But if you are competing then I believe you can consider this as conspiracy... expensive one But then again, I doubt companies are living from skis sold to racers
Which company? I think they are all pretty pretty close to each other. In WC they are telling that at the moment Fischer has best package for SL and GS, but considering people are winning WC with any other skis too (and even more then with Fischer), I would say anything will do From "store" skis I heard lots of good responses about Stoeckli as being really good and with consistant quality, and closest one to race stock skis. I went with Fischer because I have been on Fischer for all my life (including my racing years) and since I know people to get me race stock skis, which would be a bit harder with other brands. That's only reason, but as I said, I'm 110% sure any other brand would do just as fine for me
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, you know me, no slave to fashion.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Excellent, will take a look at the Fischers they do seem pretty cool. I should also be able to get hold of heads, Dynastars and possibly Atomic on the cheap (VISTs that may be worth a look-in)
That said generally avoid buying because people are winning world cups on them. cuz if its not the fact that the skis (even race stock) are completely different, they will most likely be skiing on the make which paid them the most.
Still have a decent idea what I want now, cheers all
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rjs, I'm not claiming it's FIS regs, rather Eurotest regs. I've not seen anything about specs for skis to be used for Eurotest other than the BASI page.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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To stop gays from skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thankyou Parlor, nothing like some good old fashion discrimination there..... could be in the FIS rules but I haven't gone through it properly yet.
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dulcamara, that's definitely true. WC racers will ski on skis they get. In 99.99% of cases they don't chose skis which are (suppose to be) the best, but those which brings them most of money. It's pretty simple... everything spins around money. So it doesn't mean Atomic are best since Svindal is skiing on them. It just means they gave him best offer. Personally I avoid buying skis which "won WC this year", and based on mark standings Fischer is somewhere around place 3 or 4, so I'm out of that wagon 
But as I wrote, top level skis are all more or less the same. Definitely same enough that noone of us (because I doubt there's any top 10 WC racers present here in Snowheads) would notice difference between different marks. There are some minor differences between brands, and there are skis which are a little bit better then rest in particular year (few years back these were Atomic in all disciplines, now (last 2 season, but noone knows for 2010) they are suppose to be Fischer for GS and SL), but this is something which might matter for top 10 in WC, not for us. And even then, it's still about skier not about skis. Considering winners list, you can see there were pretty much all brands on winning stand this season, so noone can say you can't win with particular brand.
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You know it makes sense.
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Fair enough for the Factory skis, they're pretty similar, but there are huge differences between the Race dept skis. What I want is a light, bouncy ski. Which, from what I can remember hasn't been the atomics for ages, cuz the plates and bindings weigh a million billion tonnes. Sounds like Dynastar (Used to love these) have gone smooth and grippy. So where do we go from here?
Are the Fischers gonna give some nice bounce or do they just stick you to the floor? RJS, care to weigh in? what about Volkl's Retro thingies?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have been skiing almost all my life on race stock skis, but I would doubt there's all that much difference between different brands. I admit I was never skiing enough on anything else then Fischer to be able to comment on this. Therefore I also can't answer your question about "giving nice bounce". For this I should ski on some other skis much more then I did. But to be honest, I doubt any race binding would be half lighter then the others. I can tell you exact weight of Fischer WC GS (183cm >27m) with WC plates and Z18 FF binding later on evening, but I doubt it would be much different weight then any other package.
But as I said, I got used to Fischer, but I can't really tell how they would compare to Atomic, Dynastar or something else.
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Poster: A snowHead
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dulcamara, I have no idea what you would consider a "light, bouncy" GS ski.
Just pick something, you will still need to ski on them for a while to get used to them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Sideshow_Bob wrote: |
| changes to width and radius for top-level racers were to reduce injuries. I don't think courses have widened out and we're seeing more stivot turns in WC than three or four years ago. For Eurotest or beer-league racing where the courses tend to be more offset to control speed go shorter and turnier, 180-185 in a 21m to 24m, you'll find they're quicker than the 190/27m boards as you'll be able to be cleaner through the turns. |
This is a complete contradiction in terms, as I'll explain.
Oh, and hi Dulcy! (it's Max - say hi to Katy for me)
So here's the question: what do you want them for? If the answer is "I want them to run GS gates at a Eurotest level, both in training and for races", then you want the closest to a factory ski that money allows!
Having skied with you, you'd easily be able to handle a factory ski IMO. Yes, a super stiff one designed for a very strong WC racer might require some gym time. But they make a huge number of much softer factory skis, especially for club racers and women. (All factory skis have a number embossed on them at the end of the batch number. The big boys on the WC are on 60+. I'm on 18s.)
Roughly speaking, here's the theory: for maximum acceleration from a turn, you want to be pushing a ski to its limit. The rebound from a ski that is released from its tightest possible turn accelerates faster than the same ski released from a longer turn. Therefore, in order to go as fast as possible, you want a ski with a radius that is about the same as the length of the turns you are doing. (this is also the theory behind recent attempts by manufacturers to create a ski with variable radius).
The displacement of gates on a WC GS course is far wider than on a Eurotest course (Sideshow Bob, you want to see those things. A typical Nastar course is not more offset or turnier. It's not even in the same league!) so whilst you or I might seriously struggle to guide a 27m ski round a WC GS course (indeed, some of the turns are so tight that 'stivot' turns are required to get round them, and the increase in pivoting on the WC is as a result of the increased radius), on a Eurotest it is much straighter. As a result, if anything you want a longer ski with a longer radius! Why? Long skis are faster in a straight line than short skis. The more surface area, the less the friction, the faster the top speed. So on a straighter course, you definitely want a 191!
FIS changes in recent years have indeed been as a result of safety and knees. Unsure how that works; I'm no doctor. I guess pivot turns are not as hard on the body.
So the answer is, if you want to run a GS to the best of your ability, and you are an expert skier and a reasonably strong and athletic male, you want a WC factory ski. In 191 (the length will take some getting used to, but you'll adjust within a day's skiing), or 185 if you must be a big girl about it. If a WC skier is able to guide them round a WC course, as a club racer you have at least an equal chance round a course that pales in technical comparison. Naturally, if you aren't an expert skier, ignore all of the above!
As to obtaining some factory skis, as an instructor you ought to be able to get hold of some lower grade factory skis on a "pro deal" if you talk to the factory yourself. I'm on Rossi, and they are easy enough to get hold of if you get hold of the French factory. Atomic are having financial problems, but the UK distributor is good for race stock. And there's always Bartletts... Don't settle for 'Race Dept' or 'LAB'. That is code for slightly-stiffer shop skis.
Now, if the answer to the question is "I want a GS ski that I can ski on all day but can also use for the Eurotest", then we're talking trade offs.
As I've said you definitely could handle a soft factory ski, and the power in those would give you a much better performance through a GS. But, if you're going to work those things on the hill all day, you are going to get knackered, and by late afternoon you'll hardly be able to steer them. There's a reason alpine teams only train in the morning.
The softer the ski, the less power, but the easier it is to flex it to its maximum. You won't accelerate as well on a GS, but you'll be able to ski on them all day. The amount of work you have to put in has a direct effect on the amount of power you get out. Similarly, a shorter radius will be more forgiving. You can ski GS turns on an SL ski all day. Similar reasons: you don't have to flex it to its maximum to turn a long turn, so it ain't as difficult.
As an expert skier, the softer you go and the shorter you go depends on your strength and your laziness. You can't cruise all day on a factory ski, but you can't win a FIS race on an intermediate "piste carver" ski.
PHEW! Hope that all helps. I wrote a lengthy article on the trade offs of ski purchasing on welove2ski a while back. Here's the link: http://www.welove2ski.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=b01&featureid=737&desc=What%20ski?§ion=20
EDIT: Oops! I forgot to answer your other question. Weight. Heavy is good pal. The heavier you are, the less air resistance you have, the faster you go. Why do you think Bode weighs 102kg? If you can gain a weight advantage through your bindings and skis, for god sakes do it! But if you're lazy and don't want to carry around heavy skis, then think about the fact that every kilo you dock is time lost. For my own part, I'm sick of the taste of weight gain powder, but if I can't hit the dreaded 85kg its another season of watching the big boys fly past me on the flats...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| welove2ski wrote: |
| All factory skis have a number embossed on them at the end of the batch number. The big boys on the WC are on 60+. I'm on 18s |
Just a small correction, or better to say remark. This is probably brand specific. With Fischer racing dept. skis, first 2 numbers and letter tells stiffness and tuning (T or S tuning with Fischer), and lower the number stiffer skis are. Mine are 68T which goes to something like "medium soft" while stiffest are 64. But as I said, it can be different for Rossi or Atomic.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yeah, point well made. Wasn't thinking there; this is a Rossi and Atomic rule. The fact remains that on speaking to the supplier, there's always a range of stiffnesses available. A good club racer of Dulcamara's level should be strong enough to handle a softer factory ski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Max my friend
I'm so glad you have as much free time as me these days! but seriously, thanks for was just what i was looking for.
Been thinking long and hard about it. Definitely need something for the Eurotest, I'm a little concerned that as soon as the slope is less than a million degrees steep i will end up side stepping round turns like a cross country skiier. Hoewever think i'll go for the full 190 ish toys and perfect my steering pivot and British Racing snow plough.
Bartletts have offered some Atomic "lab" skis dirt cheap if I want to take it easy. However Mr Kiwi1 from the other post informs me there may be a pair of VIST gs skis knocking about which should be stiffer than the majority of race dept skis and also are VIST and therefore cooler than Liam Nieson on a really cold day. Seen a good deal on the stockli GSRs as well, they also win cool points by being swiss and made by men in leather shorts.
I would love to have a look at the Rossis and Dynastars because I've trusted my life to them for the last 8 years but they all cost far too much these days. Contacted the main distributor for Dynastar and came out well over £100 more expensive than any the others? any other contacts? could you text me if you have any ideas, or even if you just feel like a heart to heart... p.s. how is ur curly haired lover?
I am rubbish others should pick my skis for me. Open to suggestions from the rest of the board.... preferably with less writing than Welove2tryandski.com
PEACE XX 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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p.p.s thanks for not telling everyone on here how pooh I really am 
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ha, I think that might catch on (but I hope it doesn't). sorry for the ridiculous last post - unfortunately it required a lengthy explanation.
Stay away from those VISTs. A national team skier I know got a pair last winter and the bases were not flat. Plus the sidewalls seemed to be made of polyethylene (ie p-tex), which shreds in great chunks. I've heard good things about the bindings and plates though!
What are we talking budgetwise here (ski+bindings?)? Tell me you ceiling and I'll see what I can do. Secondhand skis from the FIS circuit that have only been raced on are always a good bet if there's a decent amount of edge left. Because they will have been waxed heavily as so they'll be fastttt. And they'll be cheapish.
You'll get used to skiing around on 191s quite quickly, I promise. It's just tiring!
Haven't got your number, but you can reach me on max at hardkoractionsports dot co dot uk if you like.
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welove2ski, sorry but Race department is not code for a little stiffer than shop skis, dependant on the brand...on the atomic the race department is the *standard factory* race ski you then move to yellow tape or blue tape skis as they are sometimes known, blue tape is reserved for world cup skiers and top of the class europa cup, they are highly tuned as they leave the race department and normally not suggested for anyone who is not skiing at that level, yellow tape is aimed at europa cup and heavier fis level skiers and some of the women on the W/C again stiffer than the standard factory ski but not as stiff as the blue tape..... i skied the yellow tape race GS ski from Atomic last season on the ski test and to be honest i found them easier to ski than shop ski as they were more solid under foot
you can then go on to A grade and B grade skis if you want to talk semantics
as for companies in the poo-poo Atomic may well be a bit tight for cash, but not nearly as messed up as Rossignol group, fisher and a few others out there 
having spent most of last week with the head of Atomics race department i was suprised how few racers actually get special treatment in terms of skis built for them only
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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welove2ski, got to agree if you can get used skis off the circuit they will be very very fast, had a pair in here last season to be picked up by a race and the finish was like no shop serviced ski i have ever seen..... the base was solid with impregnated wax
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As lovely as the circuit skis might be, the fact they are waxed a lot will mean little in a years time when its all turned into my £5.99 wax sparingly applied by Argos travel iron!!!
Also I have always been a little nervous around used skis that have been heated and cooled excesively as from experience the skis tend to soften and lose grip (i will conceed this may be helpful if they are super stiff to start with.)
As for the VIST skis, not sure what these walls are made of but I could probably get someone to check the base is flat and hey presto one problem solved. Is it worth sticking to the big companies though?
So we have established, lots of experienced skiers on here, I am looking for a ski with a good kick out of the turn as I am not heavy enough to really drive a full fat smooth carver (discovered that on my old Dynastars). Think I'm aiming at a race dept or used factory ski to allow me to turn it if the course starts on the flat.
PLEASE could someone recommend a ski then i'll have a look around for deals, Max I'll email u what i found so far and an idea budget... (dont trust the rest of you yet)
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FAQ
