 Poster: A snowHead
|
Hey guys -
The recent Mission thread got me wondering - I tend to set all my skis edge angles to 2 (side) 1 (base) - which seems to make them easier to hold an edge on and sit on edge for long cat tracks etc. Is there any disadvantage to this? For example, my powder/soft snow skis don't really need amazing edge hold but I figured it can't hurt - is there any reason to not go this way?
Cheers,
Dave
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
2 degrees isn't steep & many factory set-up's are a 2. I'd recommend going to 3.
IMO there's no downside to a 3 degree side angle whatsoever & I tune all my skis to that as well as many of my customer's skis. A few say the edge is is not as durable but I disagree & have seen no difference in dulling between 1, 2 or 3 degree side edges. Intrinsic edge durability is IMO more a function of how smooth the edge is, ie no/minimum striation so that there's no 'peaks' to burr over. 4 degrees & over is probably too extreme unless your racing (or ski on Vermont ice) & it does have durability issues.
Atomic ship all their skis, including all their powder skis, with a 3 degree edge so if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. You never know when you need your edges until you need them so why not be prepared. And if you get fresh snow/powder you won't need the edges anyway.
The only downside with a 3 is that if you ever want a shop tune ( ) you'll struggle to get them to set their machine to 3.
I set-up a pair of slalom skis for a Europa Cup racer last summer with a 0.3 base & 5 degree side. Now that's aggressive!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
It's worth mentioning that a sharp angle, or any edge for that matter, needs to be regularly deburred & touched-up/sharpened to be effective. How often depends on the snow conditions & rock hits etc. In Tignes at Christmas 06 I had to deburr & diamond stone every night due to the minimal amount of very hard snow but on perfect snow in Courchevel this Christmas I didn't touch the edges all week.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
DaveC, me and Steve Kirby set the girls skis to 3 for our last trip and to be honest they both did well, probably the best yet, and I'm sure the extra edge angle helped with edge hold.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Hmm.....food for thought.....how much do you charge for an angle change on missions jon??
Wouldn't trust myself to do it 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I stuck a 3 side bevel on my Missions using my tooltonic tuning file the same device also goes in my pocket for touching up with a diamond stone. So far so good.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 3-02-08 22:44; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Why would you need it..is my 1st question..?
If you aren't getting enough edge..look at your technique...same old, same old..IMV
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
kitenski,
Deburr
Touch-up base edge if required
Sidewall strip
B'stard file
Med file
Fine file
100grit diamond
200grit diamond
400grit diamond
600grit diamond
1500grit diamond
Remove hanging burr
As part of a tune/service it's £7 but on it's own it's £10
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| JT wrote: |
Why would you need it..is my 1st question..?
If you aren't getting enough edge..look at your technique...same old, same old..IMV |
JT, edge hold is the combination of both technique & sharp edges. Edge hold on hardpack/ice is a combination of both better technique & sharp edges on sharp angles.
Wider skis in particular can benefit as they're generally not as longitudinally & torsionally stiff (as you described in the 'Mission' post) & also the edge is not directly underfoot. As you usually hire skis it's highly unlikely (unless you've demo'd Atomics or Fischer piste skis lately) that you've skied a 3 degree edge so don't knock it till you've tried it. Anyway, there's nothing to loose but potentially a lot to gain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I changed my base angle from 1º to 0.5º on my slalom skis (the ski service centre in Les Arcs did it for me, although it took some persuasion from me that's what I wanted). They did feel different on the ice at Tignes pre-season: seemed to bite earlier in the turn, although were a bit twitchy when I had a half-hearted cross-over.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 3-02-08 23:22; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
spyderjon,
If you are being so specific with an edge, then you're going to have to keep it that way if it makes so much difference to you, so that means having to do it yourself on hols as you can bet that ski shops aren't likely to bother with this if they have a stack of skis to prep.
I don't believe it does, as I think if you wanted more grip you just roll them over a bit more. I used the same egdes for nigh on two weeks on pretty hard pack home runs and they did fine there. I knew the ski was upto this...some skis are better than others admittedly, but that is all about knowing the ski.
There is a lot about the Mission I don't like much... it wants to turn all the time and that brings its own problems, and the shovel is weak, IMV which are some of the reasons I don't use it.
And taking that much metal off the ski can only limit the amount of services you can give that ski, so if you must sharpen them all the time, you'll likely go through the ski pretty quick....
I think it more useful to be able to adapt your technique to cope with these quirky things..the mountain is pretty unforgiving if you can't roll with the punches.
I've tried the brand new Race tiger last year...good fun grippy ski, and I used the Fischer WC series at the PSB amongst others
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
JT, each to their own but one of the benefit's of having & maintaining you're own gear is that you can try stuff that you can't when renting.
| JT wrote: |
| And taking that much metal off the ski can only limit the amount of services you can give that ski, so if you must sharpen them all the time, you'll likely go through the ski pretty quick.... |
Not true as it takes boogerall off the life of the ski to set 'em up initially as the 'top' of the side edge is only moving 1 or 2 parts in 90 & junction of the side & base edge isn't moving at all. Once set the edges don't need any more maintenance than a 1 or 2 degree edge so there's no additional wear. If you want to wear a ski pretty quickly then frequent shop tuning by machine edge & base grinders is the way to do it. If you rent it doesn't matter though.
On thing I notice on customer's skis is that the better skiers get noticeably less burring of the edges from hard snow which I presume is because on-piste they tend a lot more time with their tails following their tips than skidding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| JT wrote: |
Why would you need it..is my 1st question..?
If you aren't getting enough edge..look at your technique...same old, same old..IMV |
Same old, same old stupid argument. Why do I ski fat skis in powder rather than 65mm carvers? It makes skiing easier and more fun. Why do I want grippier edges? Why wouldn't I!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Jon, are there any advantages to 1deg side angles then? Seems really weird that the factory default has no obvious benefits...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
DaveC, ask around with the L3's and L4's at your resort. My bet is that the vast majority of them ski with 1,1 or 1,2. You don't exactly see them struggling for grip all mountain now, do you.........
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| veeeight wrote: |
| ....all this quibble about 0.5, 0.75, 1 base etc. - you'd find more inconsistency in your boot/leg alignment, and the play between bindings/boots...... |
Not on my set-up
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
i had some K2 recons that had a 1 base 2 side and after a UK machine service set the side angle to 0 i could really notice a difference in the ski when in resort. I got them re tuned during my trip and the difference was very noticable to me..
spyderjon, Interesting to hear that you dont feel there is any difference with regards to quicker dulling on a 3 versus 2 degree. How about burring and rock hits? I am sure i heard before that a 3 will dull quite quickly
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| DaveC wrote: |
| Jon, are there any advantages to 1deg side angles then? Seems really weird that the factory default has no obvious benefits... |
DaveC, the guy that taught me was an ex Volkl WC tech & is now their Product Manager. He sets all his edges to 3 yet Volkl ship all their skis with a 2.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
skimottaret,
| spyderjon wrote: |
| .....Intrinsic edge durability is IMO more a function of how smooth the edge is, ie no/minimum striation so that there's no 'peaks' to burr over.... |
A rock hit is a rock hit & is gonna do the same damage whatever the angle is, although most rock hit damage is to the base edge. Obviously the hardness of the edge is a factor & although Atomic claim they have harder edges I've not found them to be any different when working on them.
Whilst not exactly an scientific comparison I've regulary skied with mates who've been on a 1 or 2 edge & who are similar weoghts/abilities etc & there's been no worse wear on my edges than there's - & I'm not just been on my Atomic's, the same has applies to my High Society's when I was skiing with Mosha Marc on his 8800's the other week. There's loads of stuff supporting this on Epic if you do a search.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
spyderjon, I am sure you are right as you know alot about this subject and see a lot of skis. I was toying with trying a 3 degree on my SL skis and it is interesting to hear that they wont dull any quicker....
my base edges are a bit bashed and dented after the early season. when do you feel the need to redo your base edges? or should i only touch them after a base grind?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A 3deg certainly wears out your gloves quicker!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Whereabouts are the angles measured? Anyone got a link to a sketch?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DaveC,
You have a typically 90 degree angle which you will have to bevel to increase.... no point otherwise...which will reduce the metal available on the edge.
Two downsides to this...IMV..is that you take more metal off in one hit to get the angles started
and you have to maintain this angle if you think you can tell the difference which will reduce the life of the metal on the ski as you continously go for this set-up...
Then there is boot slop, technique, different buckle tightness..all of which may negate the precision you have gone for.
All to deal with an icy patch...
You might get hooking with the ski as a benefit which you might not like.
All this when all is required is a better edge set.
Now, if you're after FIS points you might need every little gain you can get but not for the recreational skier and certainly not if you can't put your feet where you want/need to..!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| ......my base edges are a bit bashed and dented after the early season. when do you feel the need to redo your base edges? or should i only touch them after a base grind? |
You can of course touch them up with a file or diamond anytime but you've just got to be careful not to over bevel them or to lower them below the level of the p-tex base. If they're well bashed then a stone grind will re-flatten the base & flatten the base edge angle to 0 degrees, ie dead flat.
The base edge angle will then need to be re-cut. This is were it's useful to cut them to a shallower angle than the factory set-up, say 0.7 degrees as opposed to going to straight to the 1 degree K2 set-ep as this allows you a bit of 'tuning room' in the future as when they get a bit bashed you can take them to a 1 to get a clean edge again without over bevelling etc.
You can even start at a 0.5 base angle & ski 'em to see if you like 'em as this will give you even more tuning room in the future - the edges will hook up a lot quicker (slalom racers usually have a 0.5 degree base) & but if they're a bit grabby you can add a bit more base angle at the contact points (don't detune!) to feed the edge in more progressively. I can definately tell the difference between a 0.5 & a 1 degree base edge angle but as V8 says it can depend how well aligned you boots are etc. I can just about tell the difference between a 0.7 & a 1 but after a couple of runs I'm used to it & don't notice the difference. I've got a well fitted & aligned boot/binding set-up so I find 0.5 a bit keen.
Stone grinding will also restore the base structure but the base will be a bit 'fuzzy' after the grind so it'll need plenty of brass brushing & fiberpad passes to smooth it up, & then plenty of wax of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
spyderjon, thanks Jon, but I couldn't seem to get to that page from your site and I did try - that is very helpful 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
spyderjon, thanks matey that is most helpful... I like the idea of starting with a 0.5 and then to a 1 as they get mashed up and will do after next grind... I may even order an 87 holder from you
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| JT wrote: |
DaveC, You have a typically 90 degree angle which you will have to bevel to increase.... no point otherwise...which will reduce the metal available on the edge.
Two downsides to this...IMV..is that you take more metal off in one hit to get the angles started
and you have to maintain this angle if you think you can tell the difference which will reduce the life of the metal on the ski as you continously go for this set-up... |
JT you said that earlier but it takes boogerall off the life of the ski to set 'em up initially as the 'top' of the side edge is only moving 1 or 2 parts in 90 & junction of the side & base edge isn't moving at all. Once set the edges don't need any more maintenance than a 1 or 2 degree edge so there's no additional wear.
Of course the best/sharpest edges in the world won't help if the skier is unable to get a good edge set in the first place which is obviously a technique thing. However their appears to be a bit of confusion as to the function of the two edges angles on the ski so I'll clarify:
The base edge angle determines how much the ski has to be tipped for the edge to engage.
The side edge angle determines the amount of bite the edge has once it's engaged, ie how sharp the point is to cut in to the snow.
So the base edge is the one that affects the skier's ability to set an edge, ie the greater the angle the more the ski has to be tilted.
The OP's question was basically whether a greater side edge angle increased grip & were there any downside & the techincal answers, for any given ski/skier ability/snow condition will always be yes, it increase grip & (IMO) there are no downsides - whether the skier can actually needs or can utilise that is for them to decide.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
spyderjon, Is this something that you can have done in resort? I have my own beloved skis and have had them serviced in Zermatt, Val d'Isere and Hull but I have never been asked what edge angle I want and don't know what they left the factory with.
I am going to Val d'Isere again in March for 2 weeks (Hurrah) so will have plenty of time to drop them in somewhere and ask for them to be "tuned"? to 2 or 3 degrees,
I wish I lived nearer your workshop as I am very wary of botching my own skis and won't attempt it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
spyderjon,
You take a 90 degree angle...and bevel the base... .5 or whatever... if you got 1 or more it is even worse... you have had to grind off quite a bit of metal to get to that in the 1st place and then you are at a point much further into the edge than normal grinds might be, hence reducing the amount of metal than can be taken off at any later stages
Fig 1 base edge angle on your web page shows that quite clearly.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
JT, I think you're mistaken as to what's being altered when an edge angle is inreased. To go from say a 1 or 2 degree side angle to a 3 degree side angle the base edge angle is NOT being touched at all.
As per the red lines showing each different side edge angle in my fig 2 diagram, it's only the 'top' of the side edge that's effectively being pivotted around, the pivot point being the junction of the base & side edge, which (when done properly & carefully in stages with a range of files & diamond stones) doesn't move at all so there's no loss of material in the thickness of the base edge. Admittedly you're loosing 1 or 2 parts in 90 off the top of the edge but if you examine a piece of raw edge stock you'll see that there's plenty of material there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Hullite, you're only 90 mins away & many of my customers come from further afield.
You should be able to specify what you want in a resort shop but they often won't alter their machine settings. And machine tuning takes off waaay more material than hand tuning. What's the make & model of your skis?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
spyderjon,
All your pics show a base bevel which has to come off somewhere so are saying your diagrams are wrong...? How do they get like that? Even if factory shipped that means a planing which takes away metal in the first place. Also, most resort planers will be oblivious either by design or ignornance so don't expect them to mantain it which means you have to do it yourself.
And if you talk about cutting into the side angle then again you are eating into metal that you might need later... it is ok to say, there is plenty there, but there would be more there if you didn't eat into it in the 1st place.
You are basically reangling a 90 degree angle and to do that you have to eat some metal you might want later, hence I maintian that is shortens the life of the edges. Even every file or deburr will eat more metal away. It doesn't grow back..!!!
If you want to say it doesn't take away metal, then fine, people can make up their own minds. Its pretty obvious
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| kitenski wrote: |
Surely more metal must have been shaved away for 1:3 than 1:1?
|
Yes, initially, but not from the tip of the edge, only from further back.
Once the angle has been increased, then any filing will still remove the same amount of metal, whether it is to maintain a 1:1, 1:2 or 1:3.
The bigger issue with increasing the angle is if you decide to decrease it again, then you need to take off a lot of the tip of the edge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JT,  , sorry matey but I think you're missing something & my no drawings aren't wrong.
The base edge angle & the side edge angles DO come preset from the factory. For example a Volkl comes with a 1 degree base edge & a 2 degree side edge which is know as a 1,2. The angle subtended by the two edges is therefore 89 degrees (but this is never refererred as it's easily confused with an 89 degree side edge).
To increase the side edge angle to 3 degrees to make more of a 'point' at the junction of the edges to give more bite in the snow then ONLY the side edge angle is altered. The existing base edge is NOT touched or altered at all.
So if you increase the angle of the side edge to 3 degrees (as per the red lines on fig 2) you end up with the same untouched base edge angle but a lightly more sloping side edge angle, ie a 1,3. The subtended angle is now 88, which being less than 89 means that the junction of the edges is now more pointed/sharper. As I said above, the pivot point for altering the angle of the side edge is the junction of the existing base & side edges so the usuable width of the base edge from a wear point of view is not reduced.
(As a seperate note the base edge angle can only ever be increased so to reduce it the ski's base & base edges have to be flattened totally with a base/stone grind).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
Surely more metal must have been shaved away for 1:3 than 1:1?
|
Yes, initially, but not from the tip of the edge, only from further back.
Once the angle has been increased, then any filing will still remove the same amount of metal, whether it is to maintain a 1:1, 1:2 or 1:3 |
Exactly! 
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| The bigger issue with increasing the angle is if you decide to decrease it again, then you need to take off a lot of the tip of the edge. |
But then you'd never want/need to do that as you'd never what less hold.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
So, what we're saying is besides the "you don't need it, why bother, my technique compensates because I'm awesome" (again with the no offence meant disclaimers) and misconceptions about the process, it's a personal preference with no downside?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
