 Poster: A snowHead
|
This is still a mystery to me. For now poles are things I use for pushing myself along on flat bits and try not to drop from lifts. I have not really worried about the proper use of them as I know I'll get told when I need to start doing so. However my cousin (who tends to be a bit of an "expert" on things  ) just visited. He still skis on straight skis as he doesn't see the need to buy new ones while they are still serviceable. He was telling me that he learned to parallel by learning to plant the poles, the technique being plant the pole a bit ahead and to one side, then ski round it. I didn't persist with the conversation, but later mulled it over in my head. Now it seems to me, on trying to imagine this technique, that it would make me lean towards the pole and weight the inside ski not the outside one, which surely can't be right.
Can someone tell me when and how you start to make use of the poles?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Butterfly, My instructor has taught me to pole plant during both of my holidays. Same drill as you describe - plant the pole and then turn around it. As you know we have a bit of language problem and I don't know why they teach you this, I assume it is to help you control when and how you make the turn - to force you to make it when perhaps you wouldn't and to make it tighter that you would without a pole plant. However, I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell us the real reason.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
the technique being plant the pole a bit ahead and to one side, then ski round it.
|
I've never heard that.
And I can see why you are confused.
It seems to me "ski around it" will be half a turn too late. I was taught to swing the outside pole forward so it touches the snow when I'm about the change edges.
So I wouldn't be "skiing around it" at all. By the time I'm "around" where the pole WAS, I would be swinging the OTHER pole readying for the next pole plant.
Or perhaps he meant ski around where the pole ONCE WAS? (instead of keeping the pole there while turning around "it") 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
makes sense to me - but then I learnt on straight skis and transferred to shaped skis. If you really don't understand pole plants then you should ask the insturctor at your next lesson. It's not essential but t really doe help with getting the flow and rhythm
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Butterfly, I use Poles apart from the obvious of pushing yourself along and in lift queues to stop people pushing in, for Short Radius Turns, Steeps, Powder and Bumps.
Until you're at this stage, just hold them with your hand out to the front of you and to the side, pole tips angled back.
Pole plants are used as a timing point, a 3rd point of contact with the snow and to arrest the momentum of the upper body.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
abc, What is described is as I've been taught. Its more than just swinging the pole through for the sort of plant you use as you ski fluidly along which can be little more than a walking forwards action with each arm in turn. Ins tead you reach forward with the pole plant it very positively in the snow and literally ski round it - the instructors do it brilliantly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks all. I think it's definitely something I will be leaving until an instructor advises doing something constructive, but I was just curious. That "arm posture" clip is really interesting - I do have problems getting the arms out front, tending to keep them in a defensive, close-to-me position until I think about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| Instead you reach forward with the pole plant it very positively in the snow and literally ski round it - the instructors do it brilliantly. |
That's a bit "old school". Very, in fact.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Butterfly, the arms out front position works wonders for your posture, it fundamentally shifts your weight forward where its supposed to be, also stops all the arm swinging which can upset your balance. If you look closely at the clips you will see all the movement is in the wrists, and the poles are continuously moving. Also the pole plants are quite strong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
rob@rar, Well its what I've been encouraged to do. Why is it considered old school - what's wrong with it and why?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 2-02-08 21:45; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Megamum, I worry that it leads beginners to do just "one type" of turn (short radius). I think that novice skiers should be encouraged from the moment they can control and link turns to vary the turn shape to suit the terrain they are skiing on, and to gradually improve their ability to steer their skis using a range of methods (rotation, pressure & edging). I think an old fashioned approach of turning around the pole from the first few days on skis (which is how I was taught when I first went skiing in 1979) inhibits that. Turning around a pole plant is useful in certain circumstances (the things that Spyderman listed, for example) but until you are doing those things they are best used as an aid to balance which shouldn't get in the way of anything else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Butterfly, Please read what rob@rar, says above , and read veeeight, 's reference. One of the dangers of 'volume & quantity' in BZK is that the 'informed' get drowned out.
No idea what level I'm really at yet but none of my instructors have yet really given a 'fig' about pole-planting, but ..veeeight, 's reference will give you a good feel of when pole-planting fits your own ability and needs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
abc, happy to oblige 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Agenterre wrote: |
Butterfly, Please read what rob@rar, says above , and read veeeight, 's reference. One of the dangers of 'volume & quantity' in BZK is that the 'informed' get drowned out.
|
Have done so - and with great interest.
As I said before, I was just curious really to read various views so I start to understand their use more, but on the practical side my poles will, until an instructor advises otherwise, continue to be used for
moving on the flat
negotiating the lift queue awkward bits
taking my skis off
somewhere to put my hands that encourages me to get them somewhere near the right place when skiing!
Oh, and as advised above, in lift queues, for stopping people pushing in . Might actually have the confidence to do so this year - last year I spent most of the time in queues worrying someone was going to knock me off balance!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
| I do have problems getting the arms out front, tending to keep them in a defensive, close-to-me position until I think about it. |
That's very common. Poles as safety blanket. The best thing many early skiers can do with their poles is leave them at home for a day or so. Lots of ski instructors do exercises without poles. Most skiers on the slopes, most of the time (including me) are doing nothing remotely useful with them. Watching the old French skiers mincing their way down the slopes doing pointless waggling about with their poles is always a good laugh, though!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
pam w, I would leave them behind, but find it hard negotiating those flatter and even slightly uphill bits around lift entrances! What I did find useful was when my instructor had me do specific things with them rather than just "carry" them. Eg he had me hold them horizontally in front, and then had me trace a wide arc in the snow with the downhill pole to encourage a better stance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Butterfly, I quite panicked mentally when I was first asked to 'play' with my ski poles, but it was doing so that finally convinced me that was actually skiing and balancing on the skis rather than thinking it was the poles that were keeping me upright. I'm interested that you were asked to trace a wide arc in the snow. I couldn't produce a wide arc with the way I ski - Z shapes (still not those elusive S's) with a long traverse across the mountain in between. Are you already being taught to go 'down' the mountain and make those lovely linked turns that I hanker after? If so how do you feel about the speed issue that this implies?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| Are you already being taught to go 'down' the mountain and make those lovely linked turns that I hanker after? If so how do you feel about the speed issue that this implies? |
S-shaped, or rounded turns, don't automatically mean increased speed. To control your speed simply hold the turn until you are going across the hill (or even slightly up it) until the point you feel comfortable to start the next turn. Much better than Z-shaped turns, and so much easier to do than sharp turns interspersed with long traverses.
I hate to say it, but a sharp turn followed by a long traverse is also a bit "old school". Modern shaped skis work best when they are always turning rather than running in a straight line.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ......Modern shaped skis work best when they are always turning rather than running in a straight line. |
Unless you're Kramer
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
spyderjon, you're assuming he uses his skis well.
I can say that safe in the knowledge that he's in Val this week and probably won't get to see this thread
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, I like that description - it is something I can visualise - I will try it next weekend. We were watching last February's video this afternoon - primarily to remind the children what they were capable of last year. I was certainly guilty of the turns I describe  However, its just occurred to me that MK might well have helped in that respect. There was no room for much of traverse there and I there was no option but to go downhill and turn around the various obstacles. I retrospect this may have been very good for me - the mountain next week will prove one way or another. Sorry Butterfly, I promise not to railroad your thread completely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Megamum, try using as much of the piste's width as it is safe to do. You'll get a much better feel for speed and direction control if you do long, rounded turns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Megamum, I think one of the reasons for tracing the arc with the pole may have been to get me to do more rounded turns without thinking too much about it! I hate speed and was going all the way across, delaying and delaying the point at which I had to turn and then getting it over as soon as I could! Tracing the arcs gave me something else to think about. However I found I could only do it on a not-very-steep slope, but then I did only have 3 mornings of skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Butterfly, tracing an arc around the outside of the turn is good for getting your skis onto their edges, so you have more grip on the snow. Leaning out with your arm to trace in the snow encourages your hips to lean into the hill (as a counter-balance) meaning better edge angles with your skis. It is tough to do on steeper slopes as you have much further to lean out to reach the snow (although this does give you big edge angles with your skis).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
rob@rar, so that's the theory of it eh? I read the fact that the arc was carved around the outside of the turn and thought 'well how on earth does that help the tipping of the skis onto their edge'. I might try it just to see it work - its difficult to imagine that it would - though I understand your description of why it should.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| rob@rar, so that's the theory of it eh? |
Well, it's my theory but don't treat it as gospel. I've been taught that drill by a couple of different instructors and the point of it for me was to get a feel for the ski gripping the snow with it's edge. Other instructors and other clients might well use it in different ways.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Instinct would seem to suggest that it would actually encourage a lean the wrong way. I was under the impression that a lean into the hill was desirable
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| Instinct would seem to suggest that it would actually encourage a lean the wrong way. I was under the impression that a lean into the hill was desirable |
The lean into the hill with the hips occurs as a counterbalance to leaning out with the arm & shoulder. Always think about what is happening to the skis when you are doing drills like this (the drill is simply a means to an end). If drawing an arc in the snow helps to achieve greater edge angles (or a more rounded turn if that was what Butterfly was doing) then it is successful. If it is flattening the ski when you are trying to get more grip then it isn't working and you should try something else. There's no one way of making progress, and different things will work for different instructors and their students.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Megamum, hips "into" the hill perhaps, but where did you get the idea that "leaning" into the hill was desirable?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Yoda, Nowhere, it just seemed a logical conclusion to the action of putting the skis on their edge. Your picture however shows that it is more an action of the lower body only.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| Your picture however shows that it is more an action of the lower body only. |
In a lot of skiing your upper body and lower body should be doing different things. It's an important skill to master.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I got very confused when told "lean down the slope, not into the hill", because it gave me mental images of a straight body leaning away, however photos like this one show that you're bending sideways at the waist, so while the upper body is leaning away, the hips are pressed in towards the slope. The arc tracing exercise, as well as getting me to focus on rounded turns and stop hugging the poles to my body, was also making me bend sideways a little at the waist in order to get the pole tip to make contact with the snow, but at my snail's pace any edging was miniscule! On trying it a couple of times back at Xscape, I got a bit of a shock when I started to go a tad faster and ended up with the skis moving much more smoothly and found myself turning a bit uphill at the end of the turn - I think I might have found the edges, if only briefly. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
| I found I could only do it on a not-very-steep slope |
It's much better to practice new skills on a really easy slope and do them right, than to take them to a harder slope and revert to defensive rushed zig-zagging. One thing which people in group lessons do learn, provided they all follow the tracks of the person in front (not always the case!) is how to take a nice curved line down the hill.
| Quote: |
I would leave them behind, but find it hard negotiating those flatter and even slightly uphill bits around lift entrances! |
It is hard, but that's one of the reasons it's good for you - you learn to get your weight right, and use the edges. That's why a day on snowblades can be so very good for early skiers - you have to get the weight right, and use a much more "two legged" style, shifting weight from ski to ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| In a lot of skiing your upper body and lower body should be doing different things. It's an important skill to master. |
This was a large portion of my lesson yesterday; I now know this is called "separation". One of the exercises John got me to do was to drag the tips of the poles in/on the snow a little less than arms length either side (and a little behind so you don't jab the snow) while making turns. This did two things (for me) it kept my body angled correctly with relation to the slope and it forced my legs to do the work while my upper body remained stationary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
my pole planting was poor until an instructor made it clear to me that it was not, in fact, required in all types of turns. big, fast, carved turns on your edges don't need a pole plant, but shorter turns on steeper or bumpier slopes do. you are actually using the poles for balance in the shorter turns. once i got this point all my turns got a heck of a lot better. previously i had been trying to pole plant in every turn and it had really hampered my ability to carve.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
