new boot pain - ouch.

A snowHead

Hi All,

I went to lockwoods as reccomended and came away with a pair of Xwave-10 boots.
I finally tested them at a dry slope for fit etc......

OUCH !

had to take them off after 10 minutes - major big aches on the outside edge of both feet, esp right foot - from the little toe down a couple of inches. now worried that they are the wrong boots for my feet ?

Also, i'm worried that they are too stiff ! I'm very much a struggling intermediate skier. and I had taken out the funny bolts that supposedly make them flex a bit more.

anyhow on the dry slope discoverd that I can't ski for toffee - nightmare ! couldn't get on and off the edged properly and couldn't get my for-aft ballance right - i was trying to get forward (bend ze knees) but was getting thrown back onto my tails.....

THEN I decided to try and speed up and carve.

cue comedy fall - lost hat and specs and had to get a fellow skier to find them for me !
sprained little finger - touch of whiplash as i nutted the slope- bruses to temple, arm back & nice graze on my temple too...
might go back thursday night for more damage.....

Anyone got any advice ? could the boots be too stiff (they say flex110 on them) ?

are my feet so wierd that i need a podietrist to tilt my foot beds or are my boots too narrow in the toe box ??? - i didn't have the clips over the foot tight.

cheers,

Gareth.
(grazed and confused)
I was told that i tend to stand on the outside of my feet 'normally' so this may explain the nasty ache ?

A snowHead

Do you have superfeet or custom footbeds in them?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

fatgaz, Go back and get them to check the cuff alignment, helped my exact same problem

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=31267

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I had super feet orange in the boots.

no adjustment was made for the cuff alignment - anyone know of a self-test for checking if the cuff-'canting' is badly off ??

Dr eeyore, hello ! (do they sell the same boots to everyone ???) anyhow, what black magic did CEM do ? just fiddle with the canting bolt thingys ?
also Dr eeyore - do your custom footbeds tilt your feet at all ?

I'm not near lockwoods or bicester. so can't just pop-by too easily.

Gareth.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

fatgaz, ouch sorry to hear that.

Remember that dry slopes are quite tricky and you'll tend to end up on the ground if you make any mistakes, particularly if you're not used to the surface. Add to that boot issues and you'll have even more problems - in my experience if your boots are giving you serious grief the skiing goes out the window so don't be downhearted just get the boots fixed and blame them for any problems in the meantime (at the very least it's good psychologically Toofy Grin

).

As doctor_eeyore says take them back and get more adjustment but consider other things too - are you doing your buckles up too tightly for example? I had bad problems with a pair of boots last year which led on one occasion to my being unable to ski and it came down to a combination of factors. Firstly the footbeds I had were cut too long and were badly made which misaligned my foot and pushed my toes and consequently foot up and back. The solution was to get new ones made by a qualified person and get rid of the old ones - I guess if you don't have any footbeds you might need some decent ones made up. Secondly the boots were actually a bit too big and in combination with the poorly made original footbed I was compensating by doing the buckles up too tightly, this led to bad foot pain with areas of my foot aching and then going completely numb, particularly the areas you describe. Once some volume had been taken up by the new footbeds and my feet were properly supported in the boot and I was careful how tight I buckled them up the problems were mostly cured, a few pads were added later in the season as the inners padded out. However I have to say that I have invested in a new pair of boots for this season that fit properly but I do ski a lot both here on dry (instructing and training) and on snow for 3/4 weeks a year so I got some of my moneys worth out of them.

Although I haven't used them Lockwoods are by reputation excellent bootfitters so they should be able to help and advise you - just remember one thing though, however painful they may be when skiing on dry here the boots will be far worse in cold temperatures when the plastic is hard and even more unforgiving so make sure you try to sort the issue out here as best you can no matter how many times you have to go back to the shop, it'll be well worth it and wherever you go for the snow try to find out where the decent local bootfitters are so you can take them in for more adjustment if necessary.

Best of luck Very Happy

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fatgaz, CEM took the liners & footbeds out of the shell and had me stand barefoot in the shell, on the footbeds, and 'flex' my ankles. My 'right inside ankle bone' touched the inside of the boot. He muttered something along the lines of 'typical X-Wave problem', undid things, muttered a bit more and gave me back a pair of boots that fit nicely.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

fatgaz, 5mm allen key on the outside(lateral) cant rivet, turn through 180° and your set. Salomon X-Wave had the coller mountings set at 4°, twice as much as needed for the average Joe. We spent years widening boots in this problem area often without sucsess, then Salomon let it slip. Little Angel

After all it is free

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fatgaz, Just do it. The little arrow on the rivet should face down, with the gap above. wink

If it doesn't work, get them stretched.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

You know it makes sense.

I wouldn't blame it all on the boots, have you ever been to a dryslope before? I think they show up ALL your flaws, I went once after feeling I was coming along nicely on snow and have never been back, couldn't turn at all on the steeper bits, just kept falling and I ended up just snowplowing lost as that was the only way I felt in control Sad

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

^^ From info on the net the flex index on the 10 seems to be 110 and the 8 around 75/80 so you'll need more than a 10% reduction to get it down to the same flex as the 8.

Again there will be experts around here who'll be able to advise you and depending on your weight, height and ability will be able to tell you what sort of flex you should be looking for and whether the 10 can be detuned to that level.

From my inexpert POV the 10s don't appear to be the best solution but I might be completely wrong. Toofy Grin

A snowHead

roga, it depends on the size of the skier too. Judging by user names our fatgaz is no skinny get. wink

Also Mr NukeEmAllKeeper will tell you that removing bolts/cut outs/carbon will jigger up the boots return to center, or summat.

Sadly my boots appear to be set up for Mr Bandy, whereas I'm a bit knock-kneed, and I've had the soles ground down Grrrrr. Evil or Very Mad

A snowHead

Mosha Marc, So true. A Booster is the only solution after.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Cunners, that would be right Little Angel

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Then I shall equip myself with my superfeet & custom moulded numbers and venture forth. I shall also bung 50p or so in the snowheads meter, by way of thanks for that very useful bit of info. Ta

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I'm very interested in this I got boots from profeet two weeks ago, custom liners + footbeds I went to Hemel Sunday (as I do every Sunday) I could do two runs and that's it before i was scrabbling to get the boots off..in agony. They were set on the first (loosest) buckle setting..There is no way I would be able to get the top buckle on the second buckle setting - you'd need Arnies muscles for that and my foot would fall off.

I'm going to wear them at home tonight and tomorrow to see how I cope other wise they are going back. I'm hoping thay take a bit of time to bed in..felt fine in the shop!

After all it is free

cfc5mu0, foam liners....did you wear them for an hour or so the evening that you had them fitted, this is somthing i always recomend with foam liners, it just helps the foam settle back and takes some of the issues away from break in, get them on as much as you can between now and when you ski

Had a similar problem myself after buying new boots. Agony after a couple of hours and the feeling that the toe box wasnt big enough becuase my toes were being crushed. Went back to Lockwoods, they did another shell check. There was enough room in the boot and after looking at my feet the chap referred me to a podiatrist with the view that I had a forefoot varus. After xrays and a biomechanical study it turns out that as well as the forefoot varus I have an old fracture injury in my left foot that I didnt know about. I have an equinus deformity with the smallest ankle joint motion that the guy had ever seen in 27years of practise!

Ive ended up with stretching exercises for my calf muscles and some orthotics on order which I get fitted on Friday. Hope it works, will let you know after a session at the Snowdome on Sat. The message in this ramble is that the boots may be ok. It may well be your feet that are the problem (I note you mentioned that you walk on the outside edge of your feet. Take a look at your shoes and see where the wear is). A good bootfitter will be able to recognise this and refer you to the right people for help. Very Happy

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cfc5mu0, I'd second the wearing them on the evening of the day you had them fitted. CEM & LARGEZOOKEEPER did mine in Tignes in October. I felt like a numbty wearing them in the bar that night, but they've been perfect ever since. Very Happy

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Well chaps I have them on now sitting at my computer...15 mins and counting..Ouch..

I'll be back with a report..

snow reports

cfc5mu0, the reason for doing it on the day is that the foam is still expan ding a little ...putting them on helps to push it back and reduces the expansion to any more thsn it should be.....sounds like they will be fine, just take a little longer to break in than they could have done

ho hum......

Well, I'm properly confused now. it may well be that my boots (X wave 10) are too stiff for me ?
apparently the 10's can have the flex reduced to the 9's level '110' to '100', where as the x-wave 8's are a '90' flex rating. also read something that said you don't need stiff boots these days with modern piste skis ?

so still worried i have the wrong boots and it will have been a very expensive mistake !

ALSO, regarding the canting bolts to adjust the cuff alignment, both bolts are set the same on each side,
so the wide part of the washer is at the bottom on both sides. this is apparently the neutral set-up in the little user guide that came with the boots. should i really be fiddling with these ?

I had a quick word with the nice chap who sold me the boots in lockwoods and he said i might be having hassles due to a forefoot varus tilt. I do stand normally with my feet at a 10 to 2 angle; my right foot at a larger angle than my left. will i need to throw even more cash at this problem ? it seems that orthotics to accommodate this might have a tilt/ramp to raise the big toe up a bit and/or a heel raise might help in spreading my weight over more of my forefoot ?

if CEM or a zookeeper have any comments ?

thanks all,

Gareth.

oh I'm not that fat - just a skinny unfit chap wrapped in a flabby 30-something body. 83-ish kilos at the moment. would like to be 73-ish kilos !

You know it makes sense.

fatgaz, at 83 kilos, you may need a name change, compared to some of us around here. Suggest mediumsizegaz instead...

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

<DIY>

OK, currently sat with tweaked boots on

(1) altered flex by removing bolts; they're are noticeably less stiff, but not by a huge amount....

(2) I have canted the boot uppers inwards - tricky to tell the difference, but it may be better, I can feel both sides of my ankles more evenly ? doesn't feel like there is a major misalignment - but I guess that I need to try skiing to find out ? it might be my imagination, but i think i'm more centred with the boots flat on the floor.

(3) I have also made some shims that i've put between the inner and the boot shell. made from 4mm hardboard, a weetabix packet, doubles sided tape and a rotary sander. i have a ~5 deg tilt under the bigtoe to the middle toe area going back to the arch and I have put a 4mm heel lift in.
Result ? well as expected, the boots are snugger, i can still wiggle my toes, but not as much as i used to. I will leave the boots on for 15 mins to see if i get any pins-needles that might indicate I've runout of volume.
if this seems to sort things then I probably do need to visit a podiatrist.....

</DIY>

Planning to go to the slope again tomorrow for a test. will report back with my injuries.....

Gareth

(well, I feel fat so i'll stay fatgaz until i loose the extra flab.... my belly is definitely in the way sometimes, especially doing yoga or when in the drops of my road bike)

A snowHead

You're doing too much at once so it will be hard to determine which solution solves which problem. Just change the canting and go from there, trust me, we've sold a couple of X-Waves over the years. wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Another idea that might be worth taking into consideration is the "styloid process". This is an area behind your fifth toe (on the metatarsal) it's a bony lumpy bit which is more extreme with some people than others - Attached to this bony protrusion is a tendon that links up to a muscle - very painful/achy when pressured. This is obviously is exacerbated by boot pressure (especially people with wide feet).

Normal solution here is
Provide more room for the styloid process – reducing the pressure

If you google (images) - 'styloid process foot' you'll see some x-rays of the area I am talking about - if it is the same it might be worth pursueing.

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I've taken the heel lift out, left the forefoot wedges in. feels like there is a bit less room in my right boot, probably my bigger foot. i think my right foot might have a worse 'forefoot vagus' too - but I ain't no medic....

G.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I'd never heard of 'forefoot varus tilt' - so I googled it. (Google being the indispensable tool for a jobbing GP)

http://www.drpribut.com/sports/spgait.html

Hmm. It seems it's a misnomer. Varus (and the opposite, valgus) refer to angulation away/to the midline (eg genu valgus = knock knees; the lower leg is angulated away from the midline / genu varum = bow legged; the lower leg is angulated towards the midline). What that site would suggest is that it's a supination (inversion) of the forefoot with respect to the hindfoot.

And to my semi-educated mind, it would be the sort of problem a foot bed ought to sort.

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firstly apologies for the techy post

doctor_eeyore, a true forefoot varus is vary rare, forefoot valgus is much more common, but often forefoot varus is wrongly diagnosed due to the examination technique [depending on where the examiner has been trained, west coast USA very little forefoot varus, east coast USA loads of forefoot varus, i can only guess that this is down to the preferences in examination technique between professors teaching biomechanics, the UK is a real mix probably do the the same reasons ]

a footbed will support the foot but if the varus is severe then it is probably not strong enough to do the job [this is when a corrective orthotic is required] if the foot is heavily pronated, often times the foot will sit in an abducted position [abduction being one of the three key components of pronation the others being eversion & dorsiflexion....supination being a combination of inversion, adduction & plantar flexion] when the foot is rotated to a parallel stance as in skiing there can be a muscular imablance which can cause an aquired forefoot varus [often times being refered to as forefoot supinatus] if the forefoot varus is flexible then it may be compensated for by the mid tarsal joint in these cases often the secret is to balance enough support to allow the foot to sit in the compensated position, if the varus is rigid then the footbed/orthotic has to fill the gaps [bring the ground up to the foot] to allow pressure to be evenly distributed over the whole of the foot

the correct footbed, stretching of calf muscles and possibly a small heel lift to reduces pronatory forces can all help. an off the peg footbed will not support any forefoot differencial from flat as they must cater for all

as you can see it is a a mine field and this is just the basics of the position Skullie

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After all it is free

arrgh...... Sad

well I tried again, and my feet still hurt like buggery. I think I may have some 'plantar faciitis' like symptoms too.
DRAT and DOUBLE DRAT. (was skiing a bit better this time - fore-aft balance still feels v. wrong; my stance is rubbish)
Pain might be better distributed across my feet, but still mostly on the outside. I think I need professional help......

Anyone know of a podietrist that is closer to cardiff than either bicester or sutton coldfield & who knows about skiing ?

I've been recommended a place in cardiff, but i don't think they have much knowledge of ski boot issues. (they seem to be good enough with running etc. though to serve prof sports people) I can't really run at the moment either, as that hurts too.

CEM, you think you might be able to sort my feet out in one go ? I'm not sure I can manage repeat visits to somewhere so far.

(a dejected and defeated) Gareth.

PS, i noticed this morning that I stand with my left foot at about a 15-20deg angle out, but with my right foot at about 30-40ish angle out. Maybe I need to give skiing up and take up snowboarding* as the binding are set more to these sort of angles.....

* luke, that way the dark side lies.

doctor_eeyore, eeyore's hoof sounds just great to me

fatgaz, without seeing the foot it is impossible to say if it can be done in one hit[without the use of a hammer wink

]

why not go see the local pod and see what his thoughts are, if it is mechanical then he should be able to help, if it is boot related then i am pretty shure if it is fixable then i can do that for you...if it is a combination of the two that is when the problems start

it may be that a simple change of footbed to something a bit more powerful will solve all the problems but as i have said without seeing the foot Puzzled

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Help!!

new boot pain - ouch.

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