 Poster: A snowHead
|
Looking at the brochures, you might assume that everybody will be skiing off piste for most of the holiday.
So skis are described in terms of 1) how they handle off piste then 2) how they carve on piste and 5) lastly in terms of turn variability and moguls.
Terrain parks get nearly as much coverage.
Is this aspirational marketing at work ?
Most people still spend most of the time on piste surely ?
Apart from the gear, the off piste conditions need to be attractive. Piste conditions will always offer something unless the resort is closed. For off piste you may also need a guide/insurance/ability.
If there is a huge dump then you can hire appropriate skis, although I would prefer to rent a board.
Having said that, on the last couple of trips I took snowboard boots with me but there were no powder days, so they got no use.
I like to have a ski that could handle moguls even if the user struggles. Similarly short radius turns. Carving very fast GS turns is fine, but on crowded slopes you need other strings to your bow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
A very good point Latchigo. Many people uses skis that are totally inappropriate for their intended use or skill level.
Two good examples are people hiring pocket rockets for the week and then spending the whole week on the piste, the second example being people who or buy twin tips and then never go near the fun park. What is the point? They'd have a much better time on an all round ski, which would stiil work almost as well off piste or in the fun park.
It is absolutely a triumph of marketing over common sense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I kinda disagree.
Perhaps this is true for skiing in Europe, but when I look at the resorts in Utah or Wyoming, the important thing is about how your skis handle off-piste. How they carve on piste is important, cause that's what modern piste skis are about. If you're interested in skidding your turns, then get straight skis.
I agree with kramer about people with inappropriate skis, or ski setup. I made sure my Pistols were mounted up for powder, not park, so the main use of the rear tip is in creating champagne rooster tails 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
I kinda(sic) disagree.
|
I have skied Utah and Europe.
I agree that the piste/trail sking is more limited in the US than in Europe. That still does'nt mean that most Utah skiers are off-piste.
Certainly not in Alta, Snowbird, Brighton, Solitude. Definitely not in Park City.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Latchigo, fun discussion.
Regarding short turns: does *no one* hire or buy hyper-carvers anymore? My ancient Atomic 9'11s can have more fun in 50m of slope than a pair of miniskis.
Regarding Kramer's triumph of marketing: YES! Notice that newer skis (for more money) can make you a hero in powder, and a player in the pipe, but there really is very little exciting *gear* they can market for bumps that hasn't been there for aeons. Hmmm. Anyone done Dendix bumps?
Disagree with Kramer on twintips, though, unless he's skinning someplace. They are not new, however, and even "classic" skis now have a bit of turnup at the tail, see Elan M666/M555 for example.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I agree, they all have a tiny bit of a turnup at the back, but I think that again this is for marketing reasons rather than any other reason. I always thought that twin tips served one purpose, and that was for skiing backwards, although I am willing to be corrected on this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Kramer wrote: |
| I agree, they all have a tiny bit of a turnup at the back, but I think that again this is for marketing reasons rather than any other reason. I always thought that twin tips served one purpose, and that was for skiing backwards, although I am willing to be corrected on this. |
No, the whole point of twin-tips is as wtfh pointed out, to spray anyone tailgating you with snow
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ok, I stand corrected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Interesting. By piste you mean a groomed run? For many here you ski groomed runs to warm up, to get from the off-piste areas back to the lift and when your legs finally give out at the end of the day. Or if off-piste conditions are really bad and cruising fast on the groomers is all that is available. It is true that most beginers and intermediates stick mostly to groomed runs but I think most upper intermediates, advanced and expert skiers have more fun off-piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A piste is a marked run on the map, for which your standard ski insurance will cover you.
It may be prepared, but not necessarily on a frequent basis. They may just let the moguls build up.
A piste will certainly be patrolled and swept by pisteurs before the lifts close.
As regards fun, there is off piste and there is off piste.
Straying a short distance from a prepared run, in good conditions, is different to hiking off to virgin slopes, far from the madding crowd.
In Europe pistes are often a lot wider than trails in the US. They can be big open areas, not just road-width passages through the mountains.
From what I have seen in California and Utah, it is my belief that most US skiers, not just beginners and intermediates, are on piste rather than off piste for most of the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
ski on slalom skis, the modern ones are brilliant in moguls, and short turns are what they're made for.
|
Easiski fair comment about slalom skis and short radius turns.
However, slalom skis, surprisingly, are not that well-regarded for moguls.
I think the tails are a bit on the stiff side or something. I am no expert on ski construction. I just remember the explanations from a few years back.
Race skis do badly for both versatility and moguls in the Snow & Rock table for example. Worse than any other category, including basic on piste skis. That may also tell me something about S&R, of course.
I apologise for quoting from S & R. I know it is boring, but other surveys will show similar results.
If you go back a few years, Ski Magazine actually had a separate section for mogul skis.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Latchigo, The citizen "race" slaloms (Atomic 9.12, SL9 ) release the tail very, very well and do famously in bumps. It's the top race and race room models you have to be careful with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Isn't bumps skiing way more about technique than kit? Glen Plake seems happy ripping lines on 223 DH boards and that's down to him knowing how skis work and how to ski bumps.
That said, anything that grips like a demon and turns on a sixpence should work well. Although I rather enjoy my Rossi GS skis. I think it's cos they're ony 167 long. Definitely better than my old 203 slalom chums.
On the original topic, it does sound as though we're all off piste the whole time. I would have thought that 90% of the skiing population were on piste 90% of the time? in which case "All Mountain" is kinda inappropriate...
Triumph of marketing over reality indeed.
Utah Wyoming experience limited, but again I would imagine that anyone seriously off piste would be free heeled.
Thought Alta gave you the offpiste experience in a totally controlled environment - fully patrolled, minimally groomed and generally awesome!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I think that there are bumps, and then there are bumps. Some are really good fun, and enjoyable to play on, others are just an exercise in masochism, you feel as if you have to ski them to improve your performance in the smaller bumps. All in all I think that it doesn't matter what ski I'm on, I will never enjoy skiing down steep, icy, narrow, bumps the size of volkswagen beetles.
As for easiskis comment on the colour of pocket rockets, last year, staying the same hotel as me was a lady who went to the boot fitting lab to buy boots, rejected the technicians choice "because they were the wrong colour" and insisted on buying a pair "to match my skisuit"! Unsurprisingly at the end of the week after many visits to try and sort them out, she decided to return them and get a refund under the shops comfort guarantee. Surprisingly the shop actually agreed to this and refunded her money in full!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Easiski, it's one of the reasons that I always recommend Precision Ski in Val d'Isere to anyone who asks. I figure that if they're prepared to refund in those circumstances, then anyone else who goes is either going to get a good fitting pair of boots, or their money back. It probably doesn't cost the shop that much either, they get some good publicity for their comfort guarantee, and they just put the returned boots in with the rest of their hire boots and make their money back on them that way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| easiski wrote: |
fiddler, You make me almost want to come to the States - I thought you got arrested for going really off piste over there 
|
Easiski, you have articulated one of the misconceptions about North American skiing that is commonly held by people who have not skied over here much. As well as skiing safely throughout the entire "in-bounds" area, whether groomed or not, every skier/rider is perfectly free to leave the ski area via "backcountry access gates", and go absolutely anywhere they choose - at their own risk, of course. East Vail Chutes, Mushroom Bowl, Seibert's Stash, Shaft, Minturn Mile, Stone Creek, The Bald Spot, Grandpa Glades, Alta Chutes, The Ace of Spades - these are all names of popular backcountry runs accessible from Vail or Beaver Creek, none of which I had heard of before I moved here - because none of them are marked on trail maps. But plenty of locals ski/ride them. As far as I'm aware, most N. American resorts now allow similar access to the backcountry.
Comprex, Sheffield Ski Village used to have a mean Dendix mogul slope, which I actually used for shooting a ski instructional video in 1998. According to their website, they have now re-laid it with Snowflex.
easiski, you're right, all you need to ski the zipper line easily is something light, short and straight, so that the swing weight is low for the purely pivoted turns that are used. Something like this:
http://www.snowandrock.com/shop/activity/ski/equipment/skis/type/skis_for_freestyle/products/ESATO.htm
If you want a good bump ski that will also carve a turn, you'd be best off following Comprex's advice, and going with a "slalom carver" rather than an out-and-out slalom ski, which as Latchigo rightly says, would be tougher because of the extra stiffness.
I have skied bumps on DH boards from time to time, and I can tell you that it's not easy. I can only think Plake does it to give himself more of a challenge. Soft snow helps - I don't know if he would do it if he lived in Killington rather than Heavenly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I was just scanning this section and Atomic 9.11 caught my eye, though totally for the wrong reasons. I keep hearing the numbers on the news. 
Martin Bell,
While I love my 1080s, at 180cm they don't seem short by todays standards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I thought the Fischer Lunar was specifically designed for moguls.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lunar skis??
That reminds me of Wallace and Grommit's grand day out. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I hear blades are excellent in the bumps....
....I still won't try them though!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Nogs wrote: |
| I thought the Fischer Lunar was specifically designed for moguls. |
Correct. Other mogul-specific models: Head Mad_Trix Mogul, K2 Cabrawler, Dynastar Twister.
Other companies make them only in limited amounts for their mogul comp skiers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Latchigo wrote: |
| Is this aspirational marketing at work ? |
Isn't all marketing aspirational? After all, would anyone be tempted to buy anything perceived as anything other?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mark Hunter, top comment!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Mark Hunter wrote: |
| Latchigo wrote: |
| Is this aspirational marketing at work ? |
Isn't all marketing aspirational? After all, would anyone be tempted to buy anything perceived as anything other? |
Maybe I have used the wrong phrase.
By way of example, if I buy a potato peeler, say, I usually just want something to peel potatoes efficiently.
If I buy an expensive sports car, but I never drive anywhere, there may be other buttons being pressed by those who are paid to persuade us.
Status symbol, popularity with opposite sex, keeping up with the Clarksons etc. etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Martin Bell wrote: |
| [ Sheffield Ski Village used to have a mean Dendix mogul slope, which I actually used for shooting a ski instructional video in 1998. |
Any chance of that one in NTSC?
(I was going to bring this up earlier, but it appears to be a good time: feel free to suggest other titles that might complement US teaching).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Martin Bell, - I agree with your summary of misconceptions that people have about North American skiing - anywhere "in-bounds" is OK to ski, as long as it isn't actually marked "closed" (that's when you might get into trouble!) And you are not limited to resort area skiing - if you want to hike you can ski in most of the National Parks.
However, if you say"off piste" around here, you do get teased (I would have put that another way, but I don't want to be censored!  )
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Without poles, how does that work?? 
