 Poster: A snowHead
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I wonder if you can help me with a few questions that aren't answered by the BASI web site?
I haven't been skiing very long but have done 10 weeks now, with some excellent tuition. I've been told by a BASI Trainer that I'm a good enough skier already for BASI Level 1 Alpine, and some aspects already good enough for Level 2. Level 1 would allow me to teach at the Snowdome. I don't hold any ambitions to teach in the mountains, because my breathing difficulties mean that, although I'm extremely fit, at altitude I struggle to ski for long bursts without a rest to get my breath. I can get down a blue of a mile or so without a break, but steep bits of reds or blacks or bumps or off-piste leave me requiring a breather every few hundred yards as the technique is more aerobically demanding. The breathing problem is not reversible by training as I'm already extremely fit and have a very high lactate threshold - my lung function will always remain limited.
I'd like to do a Level 1 instructor course, but...
1. I still haven't done 16 weeks. I have done probably the equivalent of 3-4 weeks at the Snowdome too, since I live near to it and go at least once a month. It has been mentioned to me that there is no way they can check up, but the concept of lying doesn't appeal to me. However I won't have done 16 weeks until next the end of season (2008/9) if the Snowdome doesn't count. Should I just book anyway and not say anything about only doing 10/13 weeks?
2. I'm a bit concerned that I will be prevented from passing because I need to take a breather on steeper terrain. Or does that only affect Level 2 (I've been told I should aim at doing Level 2).
3. How do the courses work? Do you spend a lot of time sitting in a classroom doing the first aid and child protection stuff? Mr DS may want to do it too, but doesn't like kids and would be bored out of his mind when he could be skiing!
4. I'm not entirely clear whether you can buy the BASI manual and have a look to see what the syllabus is first before joining. Is this possible?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've just dropped you a PM 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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docsquid, re 1. I don't know the answer but if I as a student found out that my instructor had only been skiing for 10 weeks in total, it wouldn't exactly inspire confidence. In fact even 16 weeks would be pushing it for me - I guess that requirement is aimed mostly at people who've done a full season and hence have probably experienced more of what the mountain can throw at you in those 16 weeks than an ordinary holiday skier is likely to encounter in 16 weeks AND have spent 16 weeks consolidating their ability and knowledge, whereas a recreational/holiday skier will be spending time catching up at the beginning of each week. I can ski every weekend and I find there is a massive difference in sliding back/fitness/muscle memory between skiing on consecutive weekends and when I miss a weekend.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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docsquid, I've seen you ski and you're well up to doing the L1 easily. The number of weeks spent on snow is a guide for the average experience required for someone to consider taking the course.
Are you doing the L1 in the UK? If so your breathing difficulties will not be an issue. I would think that a Trainer would allow your breathing time outs on the L2 as it's a medical issue.
First Aid needs to be a 2 day HSE recognised one, ideally BASP are the best ones to go for. Child Protection Module is 3 hours in a classroom.
35 hours shadowing, at Tamworth is fine.
BASI Manuals are available from BASI as you will have to join BASI as an assc member in order to do the course.
Some practice in the Central Theme before the course, would be beneficial, just ask rob@rar
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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If a Trainer says your skiing is at the right Level then I don't think that the 16 weeks is a big issue (it's a guideline isn't it?). However, on the L1 course I did recently it was easy to see which skiers had a lot of mileage under their feet, especially when it came to developing personal performance, so I think you should be entirely confident that you will be able to make the most of the course before you sign up for it (it's not cheap, and it would be an expensive mistake if you had to re-sit the entire thing).
Skiing is normally from 9am to about 4.00pm, with 45 minutes for lunch. That's then followed by about two hours in the classroom. The Trainer on my course kept the day moving along fairly quickly, so there's wasn't a lot of time for taking in the scenery  The terrain ranged from flat, through nursery slopes, blues and steep reds. We didn't do any particularly steep terrain, bumps or off-piste, but I don't know how typical that is. The 1st Aid and Child protection modules are done separately from the L1 course.
You can buy the Alpine Manual (and the Generic Manual) from BASI although you don't get member discounts. They are not really a syllabus as such, more a reference manual which describes the BASI approach.
I'd say that unless Mr DS definitely wants to teach he would be better doing a personal development course rather than climb on the BASI ladder. While we did do some really good work on our own skiing, we spent a long time on Central Theme stuff which would be "dead time" if you had no plans to teach.
Have you thought about doing the L1 course at a snowdome/plastic slope? It doesn't have to be Alpine based since this summer's changes.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| Some practice in the Central Theme before the course, would be beneficial, just ask rob@rar |
Absolutely!
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Spyderman, rob@rar, granted I understand that L1 is intended for artificial slopes, but is experience really such a non-issue? Surely mileage is important? If someone proposed to become a driving instructor 10 weeks after they passed their driving test - even if they'd been driving every day for 10 consecutive weeks and therefore had no breaks in which to forget things and get rusty (which is rarely the case for a recreational skier) - wouldn't you/we be slightly alarmed at the lack of experience? Since an instructor is responsible for the safety of their student and the people sharing the slope with them (I presume), isn't it a comparable situation to driving? In fact I can't immediately think of any other activity that considers 10 weeks sufficient experience to become an instructor
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eng_ch, if your skiing and teaching is good enough to pass I'm not sure whether the difference between, say, 12 weeks and 16 weeks is that great. I don't think those extra weeks will give you significantly extra or different experience. The two Trainers who ran the L1 course I did a couple of weeks ago were very thorough in their assessment of their students' abilities and failed 4 (out of 14) who did not reach the level. Although I don't know for certain I'd say that at least 2 of those people had fewer than 16 weeks on snow, while 1 of them had considerably more experience than that.
I agree that I would be alarmed if I ended up with an instructor with such little experience, so I choose my instructors carefully, but L1 is at the level it's at and I don't have a problem with some people reaching that level very quickly.
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rob@rar, I know there are people who reach technical proficiency very quickly. But still, surely any instructor qualification is about more than just individual technical proficiency? I wonder if I'm wondering about where the bar for L1 is set? Did you feel almost over-qualified/over-experienced for it? Has it taken on a different complexion since it has been decoupled from the L2? i.e. is the standard of candidates now generally lower because they only have to pass the L1 as it's now a qualification in its own right whereas before you really had to be seriously thinking about "ski instructor" before you even embarked on "trainee instructor"? I'm just concerned that someone with only 10 weeks' experience - or even 16 for that matter - can't yet know what they don't know and being told they're good enough ("know enough") to instruct could make them overestimate their abilities, cause them to become complacent, ergo make them a potential danger? I'm sure that's not the case in docsquid's case, but do you see what I'm driving at? Isn't there a risk of creating a situation of the blind leading the blind? Or am I being excessively pessimistic?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 25-12-07 0:27; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, fully agree. The number of weeks skied is, and should only ever be, a guideline. 25 weeks of skiing the same snow conditions day-in-day-out and without having tried off-piste, bumps, trees, gates etc. would (in my mind) be less suited than someone who has skied 10-15 weeks and has skied in different conditions (icy, slush, dry/wet snow, perfect conditions) and have tried all the different parts of skiing.
Let's also be fair, that anyone with L1 (be it BASI or another group) will almost certainly spend their entire time instructing people how to get down a regularly groomed green or blue run, so whether they've encountered varied skiing and experienced lots is fairly irrelevent (by the time they progress up to a level to start working with intermediate/advanced skiers they will probably have spent a number of seasons in-resort, so will have gained this experience).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skisimon wrote: |
| rob@rar, fully agree. The number of weeks skied is, and should only ever be, a guideline. |
Oh, I hasten to add I certainly agree with this in principle - I guess I just think the experience level required to embark on teaching others is a lot lower than I would expect for a risky activity in a potentially hazardous and hostile environment. Even though the old grade 3 also had 16 weeks as the entry requirement, in practice the majority of candidates needed much more to be ready for it - I'm slightly concerned at the prospect of instructors with so little experience having a realistic chance of passing L1 and being "let loose" on the paying public. Does anyone know the requirements for similar activities (rock climbing?)?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 25-12-07 0:35; edited 1 time in total
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eng_ch, I ski almost every week at the Snowdome, so I'm not an average recreational skier who goes skiing one week per year. When we go skiing in the Alps we get instruction every time we go. I wouldn't go for this if I didn't think I could do it, and didn't think I could teach beginners to ski properly at a Snowdome. What I do have is almost 20 years of teaching experience, albeit in different fields, and I think that the ability to teach is as important as the ability to ski.
Personally, I would have no problem being taught to drive by a person with 10 weeks' experience, provided they had demonstrated the technical ability in assessment and the ability to teach and self-evaluate. What matters is the level they have reached, and whether they can teach me how to ski or drive, not how long it took to get there. It has been said to me I'd be a good instructor because I can still remember how it felt to be terrified snowploughing down a nursery slope - many instructors can't!
rob@rar, I thought about doing the course at a Snowdome, but none are currently on offer.
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You know it makes sense.
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eng_ch, I think you probably are questioning whether the bar is set correctly for L1. I didn't feel over-experienced for L1, although I did well on my overall assessment on the course (putting in some Central Theme practice with spyderman was a huge help). But L1 is very much an introductory level - I certainly don't consider myself a "ski instructor" simply because I passed this course. I think it is pitched correctly if you are only thinking about teaching beginners or very inexperienced skiers in a snowdome/on plastic, but it's not even remotely close to preparing people to teach in an alpine setting. I'm not convinced that the L2 course is set at a high enough level for Alpine teaching even though it does qualify people to teach in a good number of countries (although I reserve the right to change my mind about this when I do the L2 course in March ).
As the L1 course is so new I don't think there is enough experience to say whether it is attracting different people to it compared to the Trainee Week. I booked onto the course before the changes were announced this summer, so it had no bearing on my decision to start with BASI qualifications.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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eng_ch, the ASSI course only required the same level of experience as Level 1, and was a qualification to teach in its own right at an indoor slope or artificial slope. I looked into it last year but decided to wait until BASI got their new system up and running.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| docsquid wrote: |
eng_ch, I ski almost every week at the Snowdome, so I'm not an average recreational skier who goes skiing one week per year. When we go skiing in the Alps we get instruction every time we go. I wouldn't go for this if I didn't think I could do it, and didn't think I could teach beginners to ski properly at a Snowdome. What I do have is almost 20 years of teaching experience, albeit in different fields, and I think that the ability to teach is as important as the ability to ski.
Personally, I would have no problem being taught to drive by a person with 10 weeks' experience, provided they had demonstrated the technical ability in assessment and the ability to teach and self-evaluate. What matters is the level they have reached, and whether they can teach me how to ski or drive, not how long it took to get there. It has been said to me I'd be a good instructor because I can still remember how it felt to be terrified snowploughing down a nursery slope - many instructors can't! |
I agree with much of this, but.... I don't know, maybe I'm just getting my knickers in a twist over nothing? I just know at 10 weeks I thought I was getting the hang of things very well and the more experience I get the more I realise what a gap there is between the level we ski at and the level I would expect to be skiing at consistently to consider teaching anyone else... Oh, just ignore me! It's past my bed time
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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please bear in mind that once the L1 course is passed 35 hours of shadowing has to be done before you're let loose on the public and that will only be in an artificial environment.
L2 is a whole different ball game, a further 35 hours and a 2 week alpine course to much higher standards.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| ... 35 hours of shadowing has to be done ... |
My shadowing starts tomorrow 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Spyderman wrote: |
| ... 35 hours of shadowing has to be done ... |
My shadowing starts tomorrow |
Hope they give you at least Double Time on Christmas Day
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman, top idea! I'll suggest it...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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docsquid, Go for it. The amount you have skied for it totally irrelevant. Think back to the start of any class you have done, has any instructor stood in front of you and said "Class, I have skied for 798 hours in my life and this week I will be teaching you to clip your boots up?" If you are able to ski adequately enough but more important pass on your learnt knowledge and to have passed the test you are good enough. Back to my own hobby horse being able to put accross the technique is far better than being able to ski a GS course fast. The French system is BS, because it is protectionist there to keep others out.
Again Go for it if you have the time and really want to do it. My better half does not bother these days as the time is so precious when you are out on the slopes she wants to enjoy herself. Nice to have in the bag though!!
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docsquid, go for it 10 weeks or not, if you are technically good enough number of weeks on snow doesnt matter. once you have your shadowing hours under your belt the snowdome wont initially be throwing experienced skiers at you for private lessons. you will cut your teaching teeth on beginners and early stage skiers and figuring out what works for you and your students.
Roy Hockley, dont want to debate it but becoming an instructor in france isnt just about racing, for a bit of education on how good the french system is have a look at this explanation of the ENSA system here..
http://snowmediazone.com/the_zone/data/500/74-IainMacluskie-le_systeme_francais_2004.pdf
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skimottaret, I agree as with most snow sport authorities the rounded approach is always better.
The point that the article proves it is still biased in favour of those potential instructors that have had race training, it would ignore and even hinder those skiers with exceptional style like someone that has a skiballet background So it can preclude a very good / exceptional skier that could be a better motivator / communicator just because he/she has not had the racing background. The FIS based speed test is based on ....... speed, not language skills or teaching skills.
I have no gripe with the educational requirments about reading mountain conditions (although does not apply to most recreational ski lessons) etc., as you would want to be in a safe pair of hands in a hazardous environment. The skitest does not prove anything about teaching!!! Just fast skiing!!!!
docsquid, If your instructor feels you are good enough to take the instruction do so, and keep smiling as you're coming down the mountain.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Personally I found the BASI system a wiast of time. Little help once secured in actually working. In the end I ended up doing the PSIA instead and was sponsored by a resort (Squaw Valley) so had work guaranteed all season. And they paid you to do that ! That was a long time ago however so maybe BASI is better now. Water under the bridge now, but I did not enjoy my BASI experience and support after they had taken all your money.
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Curtains, it was pretty much as per the other posters . . . . but go for it, better to do it sooner than later
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks everybody for your help.
I have done a lot of different types of skiing in my limited experience - I did a private lesson on bumps and very useful it was too. I've only done a bit of off-piste and would need to do much, much more experience and instruction on both of these to do Level 2, should I pass Level 1. I've also had a bash at a GS race course.
I live 2.5 miles from the Snowdome, and would like to have the option of working there. Doing the BASI training to Level 1 and possibly Level 2 would give a good focus to my skiing improvement. I love teaching, and do a lot of it. I don't ever intend to teach in the mountains because of my breathing difficulties.
Am thinking of doing the training in Summer 2008, when I will have had 14 weeks experience in the mountains plus my many hours at the Snowdome.
I don't have the option of going to North America as I can't get travel insurance outside of the EU/EEA due to my medical condition.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Update and another question:-
I have been in touch with Tamworth and they are running a Level 1 BASI course in May this year, and I intend to book onto this.
Eventually, after a lot more practice and work, I'd like to try and get my skiing up to the standard for Level 2. Looking at the requirements on the BASI web site, nothing fills me with alarm, although it will for sure be a challenge, and involve a lot of work and practice.
However I note with some alarm from the BASI web site that you need to be Level 2 in Freestyle as well! Now, I can do the odd jump and on snow 360, but can anybody tell me what the Freestyle requirement is? I should add that I'm 50 years old this year, and teaching this old dog new tricks, whilst feasible, might hurt quite a lot! Do you really have to do fakie 360's with an Iron Cross?
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docsquid, It really depends on the BASI trainer taking the course as to how much time you spend in the park. Most of the trainers that I know just give the terrain park a brief visit and certainly no heroics. they don't want to risk personal injury.
All that we did was ski through a skiercross course a couple of times. Our Trainer had a previous back injury, so didn't want to kill himself.
The pass level is only at the practice phase for the Freestyle element, so as long as you have a go, that's fine, you don't have to be Jonny Mosely.
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You know it makes sense.
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Spyderman, Ah, that's OK! I've had a go at a Skiercross course, and been through the parks a couple of times doing the easier jumps. Sounds a bit less worrying than I first thought, particularly with my dodgy knee.
I wish Mr DS would get off the phone so I can book my place on the Tamworth Level 1 course in May!!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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docsquid, the freestyle portion is just another set of skills to do like bumps or off piste. On the level 2 course i took last year we needed to demonstrate being able to make turns skiing switch on a green/blue slope. You need to be able to do a 180 and land fakey. also did a little in the half pipe. that was it and you dont have to score 5's in these i think by memory it was only 3's which is very easy.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ah right - it doesn't look too bad then. I need to get into the park a bit more, just like I need to do a lot of off-piste, bumps and steeps practice. It doesn't sound too alarming!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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flowa, thank you. I'm booked now so can't get out of it!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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