 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Also if you are skiing in an area that requires transceivers all of you should have them or you shouldn't be skiing those areas.
Mountain Rescue will have them though. So if you all get stuck at least you will have a chance of being pulled out.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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yes it is worth it because other rescuers may have one, or you may be able to help someone else.
Sounds like your first need is more sensible friends though. 
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i know - i have told them time and time again
i have never used one before - am I right in thinking that I would keep the transceiver in my ski back-pack and when going off-piste tie it roubd my stomach?
i was looking at this or this
any further knowledge on these?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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read the reviews and if possible try them out in the store each is a little different to use and yes I keep mine in my BC/off-piste pack and put it on when headed out.
Definately need safer friends but hey at least you're going to get dug out before spring with it on. I always wear mine even on piste when there is more than 4"/10cm of fresh.
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do those just tie round your stomach?
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Transceiver needs to be strapped to you at all times. If you got one then you should ski with it on always and if you know how to use it properly you can be of use in a rescue effort should you come across one. Other than that I would echo what stoatsbrother said.
With regard to choice of kit have a look at www.facewest.co.uk they have a good review/FAQ section, or of course the ultimate off piste resource www.pistehors.com
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shenryo, the transceivers come with a sling. Like BGA, I would advise that
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Transceiver needs to be strapped to you at all times
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People wearing back-packs who get avalanched often get their back-pack ripped off them by the force of the avalanche and it would be a shame for the rescuers to dig out an unattached bag (because you forgot to put the transceiver on as you moved from piste to off-piste) while you lay a few feet away buried and dying. 
They are completely comfortable and, a bit like helmets, only really noticeable when you put them on in the morning and take them off in the evening.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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that makes perfect sense - so basically, I would put on in the morning and forget about it? do they just run with batteries? also, are they noticeable when skiing throughout the day?
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Slightly off the side question, if you go off-piste with a guide, wouldn't he insist you hire an avi kit?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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yeah, pf course - they usually provide - I just mean in general day-to-day recreational skiing when off-piste may happen or may not happen
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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i want something really effective but also very comfortable and as unnoticeable as possible 
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I'd be a little worry about skiing off-piste with friends who RESIST getting a transcerver.
Do they also resist attending any avalanche traning too? How good are your group at avi accessment?
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You know it makes sense.
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I would put on in the morning and forget about it?
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Yes.
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are they noticeable when skiing throughout the day?
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Not in my experience.
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do they just run with batteries?
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Yes - one set will last a week in transmit (normal) mode. When searching they use up more battery power.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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abc,
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Do they also resist attending any avalanche traning too? How good are your group at avi accessment?
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You are sort of implying that shenryo should find some more wise people to ski with. I would agree.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I would question the logic in wearing a transceiver whilst skiing off piste with people who aren't wearing them. In that situation you are relying on ski patrol or the pisteurs (or some properly equipped passerby) locating you and by the time they have arrived your chances of survival are dramatically reduced.
You seem to have the right attitude to this, get to work on your mates!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nick L, actually, if her friends are avi savy, then that that's not a problem whether they have transceiver or not. It's really a last chance kind of thing, after you had triggered an avalanche. Not a first line of defend, as many often mistaken.
But if they're avi savy, would they resist owning a transceiver?
So, I was implying she should get herself and her friends a bit more familiar with avalanche risk accessment in the first place.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But if they're avi savy, would they resist owning a transceiver?
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Exactly
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| BGA wrote: |
I would question the logic in wearing a transceiver whilst skiing off piste with people who aren't wearing them. In that situation you are relying on ski patrol or the pisteurs (or some properly equipped passerby) locating you and by the time they have arrived your chances of survival are dramatically reduced.
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Look at it from the bright side though. If anyone happen to come around to search, the one with transceiver will be the first one they'll find. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Do you get the best locker in the morgue under those circumstances then?
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There're in the market some transceivers, as ortovox patroller, that turns on at the moment that you attach it, and until you wear it runs all the time.....it's perfect, not the first time that at midday I put mine in reception and found one of my mates with his transceiver disconnected.......
I ski normally in the pyrenees, and here the people don't have the same avalanche sensibilitation than in the alps, and some of my friends think that they never will be involved in an avalanche...I hope!! But if it occure, without the avy kit (transceiver+shovel.etc...) your options aren't good...... They say that they don't like skiing with a backpack.... 
I remember to weeks ago in les 2 alpes, skiing off piste with 50-70cm of new snow (or more in some places) one friend of me lost a ski in a fall.....and he needs 40minutes to found it, we found the ski only at 60cm from the soft surface.............. Imagine, that it isn't a ski and imagine that if you're involved in an avalanche so, the snow on your head isn't soft..........40minutes are too much!!!!
answering your question, you have three things to do, first buy the avy kit (all rescuers carry it, also in andorra and pyrenees in general), second talk seriously with your mates, and third TRAIN !!!!
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| BGA wrote: |
| Do you get the best locker in the morgue under those circumstances then? |
Better than not able to find the body till spring.
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No point wearing a transceiver all the time unless you also carry a shovel and probe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Your friends have the best chance of getting you out alive. Recco is more often a way to find your body - though I expect it improves your chances a bit..
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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| shenryo wrote: |
Over the past few years I have been skiing more and more narly off-piste, loving every second of it. Stupidly, I haven't really been kitted out for such skiing, however, this Christmas Santa brought me much needed additions to my equipment, most notably a helmet 
I have bought several Recco's to place about my equipment - are these noted to be realistically of any use? |
I don't believe there is a single recorded live rescue attributed to Recco. The main function is to recover bodies. Avalanche survival is time critical. Chances of survival after burial decrease very rapidly. Your realistic chance of rescue comes from your ski partners, unless the slide occurs close to the piste or resort boundary (USA). By the time an equipped patrol or Heli get there you will be dead.
Statistics show that about 90% of avalanche victims can be recovered alive if they are dug out within the first 5 minutes. However, after 45 minutes, only 20-30% are still alive - after two hours, almost no one is alive.
If you don't have a shovel you stand no chance of digging out a victim.
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Avalanche-Survival-Curve
If you are skiing off piste ALL members of your party need to be equipped with transceiver, shovel and probe and know what to do in the event of a burial.
Read www.amazon.co.uk/Staying-Alive-Avalanche-Terrain-Tremper/dp/0898868343?tag=amz07b-21 at the very least.
I would recommended the BCA Tracker transceiver. I wear mine all of the time even the days when I am not venturing off piste. Most of the time my wife and I each wear a transceiver and ski with our other gear in a small pack each just in case we go off piste.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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i will deffo work on my mates - funny thing is that they all earn more money than me as well - lol
well, think i will kit myself with recco's and a transceiver - if it bolsters a chance of survival even one iota, i think it si worth the 200 quid fee
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| bloxy wrote: |
I don't believe there is a single recorded live rescue attributed to Recco. The main function is to recover bodies. Avalanche survival is time critical. Chances of survival after burial decrease very rapidly. Your realistic chance of rescue comes from your ski partners, unless the slide occurs close to the piste or resort boundary (USA). By the time an equipped patrol or Heli get there you will be dead.
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I can tell you of five :
1. skier 1987, found in Lenzerheide, Switzerland, after dogs and probes couldn't find her.
2. boarder, Les 2 Alpes, 2001, no details
3. Savognin, Switzerland, 2002, 8 snowboarders, 2 burials, one dead at scene the other died a few days later. None of the party were equipped.
4. Kaunertal Glacier. 2002, snowboarder in crevasse fall.
5. Prägraten, Austria, 2004, ski tourers not equipped, found using RECCO but not carrying reflectors, signal from phone or camera.
They aren't too effective for sure but they do work.
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Statistics show that about 90% of avalanche victims can be recovered alive if they are dug out within the first 5 minutes. However, after 45 minutes, only 20-30% are still alive - after two hours, almost no one is alive.
If you don't have a shovel you stand no chance of digging out a victim.
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That's 15 minutes not 5 you should follow the link you posted. I think the exact figure is actually 92% as well but it depends which study you read.
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shenryo, I wear mine if I think I will be heading off piste at any time during the day, and my probe and shovel fit in a small bountain biking rucksack. You can often ask to tag along with other equiped groups if you are sking on your own and fancy a venture into the deep stuff.
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You know it makes sense.
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If the people you are with dont have the gear then it mostly pointless. By the time people get to you, you will be dead. You are relying on other people being in the same area that do have the gear.
Recco is mostly a waist of time as most places dont even use the technology to search for it.
I've spent more time training my wife in how to use the gear that you can possible imagine. I'm always the one to go 1st when we ski so the chances are it me that is going to get wiped out. If she didn't have the gear and crucially KNOW HOW TO USE IT, then I may as well have nothing.
All this depends on how far you are actually awat from the piste I must admit. But for true back country you are mad if you dont have a whole group kitted out. Solo back country is in my opinion just as much risk as having no gear at all and a complete contradiction.
Alex
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Alex A, If anyone ventures out solo then they should have a lot of experience of snowslope evaluation. There is no second line of defense... but as always - the best way to stay safe is not to be caught in the first place.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Alex A wrote: |
Solo back country is in my opinion just as much risk as having no gear at all and a complete contradiction.
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Of course it isn't, groups travelling without material haven't made a proper risk assessment, solo ski tourers tend to be hugely experienced travelling in terrain they know well and have assessed and fully understood the risks they're taking. The number of recorded fatalities in avalanches for solo tourers is actually extremely low which rather proves that point.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| Alex A, If anyone ventures out solo then they should have a lot of experience of snowslope evaluation. There is no second line of defense... but as always - the best way to stay safe is not to be caught in the first place. |
True, although an ABS system does offer some protection for lone skiers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Re the Solo comments. OK perhaps I went a bit overboard on those remarks. I just have seen some people not do any evaluation and just use their instincs. As we saw in that video you can have all the experience in the world and even have a degree in avalanche awareness and its still not enough. At least give your self a chance and ski in groups of people who can rescue you. All that said...like you say though try and noy get caught in the 1st place !
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Alex A, I know what you mean.. for most people seeking advice (ie inexperienced) solo travel should be discouraged.
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| Alex A wrote: |
| Re the Solo comments. OK perhaps I went a bit overboard on those remarks. I just have seen some people not do any evaluation and just use their instincs. As we saw in that video you can have all the experience in the world and even have a degree in avalanche awareness and its still not enough. At least give your self a chance and ski in groups of people who can rescue you. All that said...like you say though try and noy get caught in the 1st place ! |
He didn't have a degree in avalanche awareness, he was level 3 certified and his phd covered an element of snow science.
How exactly have you "seen some people not do any evaluation" ? Or, what do you think they should be doing they're not?
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| ise wrote: |
| Alex A wrote: |
| Re the Solo comments. OK perhaps I went a bit overboard on those remarks. I just have seen some people not do any evaluation and just use their instincs. As we saw in that video you can have all the experience in the world and even have a degree in avalanche awareness and its still not enough. At least give your self a chance and ski in groups of people who can rescue you. All that said...like you say though try and noy get caught in the 1st place ! |
He didn't have a degree in avalanche awareness, he was level 3 certified and his phd covered an element of snow science.
How exactly have you "seen some people not do any evaluation" ? Or, what do you think they should be doing they're not? |
OK..i'm PSIA level 3 also so I know what that brings you in terms of knowledge. PHD that included a focus on snow science would bring far more !
Whilst in the states mostly i've been in the back country and ended up at the top of a slope that I considered "dodgy". The solo person had dug no pit and just made a decision to go for it. He happened to be a local guide, but that to me means nothing. Yes I was at the top of the slope with my wife and could have helped, but he would have gone had I not been there. I dug a pit and made the decision not to ski the slope as it was way too risky IMO.
The next day I went back to the same place and the whole slope had gone. Naturally with no skier assistance.
I dont fall for the "its been skied so its safe" motto.
The solo skier too a risk way too big IMO.
Alex
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| Alex A wrote: |
OK..i'm PSIA level 3 also so I know what that brings you in terms of knowledge. PHD that included a focus on snow science would bring far more ! |
No, that's AIARE level 3 not PSIA.
| Alex A wrote: |
The solo person had dug no pit and just made a decision to go for it. He happened to be a local guide, but that to me means nothing.
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I assumed that's what you were thinking of, digging a pit is of limited use really. In fact, although I can't find a reference for it , there's been a recent incident where two people digging a pit got caught in an avalanche so it's occasionally dangerous as well. There's some specific cases where it's useful but it's not a general tool and it would be absolutely exceptional to routinely do that.
Being a local guide actually means absolutely everything, the reason he wouldn't need to dig a pit is that he lives there, he'll know exactly how that snow pack has evolved and the state of that slope, what he knows without digging a pit and what you don't after digging one is where the surface hoar will have been buried to give a depth hoar, he'll know where the last snow fall covered glide fractures and what's under the snow pack, just like I do here when I tour solo.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ise wrote: |
| Alex A wrote: |
OK..i'm PSIA level 3 also so I know what that brings you in terms of knowledge. PHD that included a focus on snow science would bring far more ! |
No, that's AIARE level 3 not PSIA.
| Alex A wrote: |
The solo person had dug no pit and just made a decision to go for it. He happened to be a local guide, but that to me means nothing.
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I assumed that's what you were thinking of, digging a pit is of limited use really. In fact, although I can't find a reference for it , there's been a recent incident where two people digging a pit got caught in an avalanche so it's occasionally dangerous as well. There's some specific cases where it's useful but it's not a general tool and it would be absolutely exceptional to routinely do that.
Being a local guide actually means absolutely everything, the reason he wouldn't need to dig a pit is that he lives there, he'll know exactly how that snow pack has evolved and the state of that slope, what he knows without digging a pit and what you don't after digging one is where the surface hoar will have been buried to give a depth hoar, he'll know where the last snow fall covered glide fractures and what's under the snow pack, just like I do here when I tour solo. |
I just lost a long reply as my bloody internet lost signal !!
In summary.
I lived there also so knew the layers.
Digging a pit is not just about finding out what layers below will do, but the fresh layers.
I dont do them all the time at all ! I just felt in this case it was a wise move.
I think perhaps i'm unusual in that i'm very honest with myself and I dont think lots of people are when it comes to how much technical evaluation that actually make before skiing a steep slope in 3-5 avalanche risk conditions. Simply being a local does not always mean enough as i've lost a few friends as i'm sure people on here have also. That guide who was on his own was playing russian roulette by (a) skiing alone (b) just skiing the slope without really thinkng through all the risks. It was 3-5 rating (very very generous in my opinion. 12 days of snow with falls of 3-7 inches every day. Small slides were happening with any skier assistance.
Alex
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Anyone here done an AIARE course?
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FAQ
I was forgetting about ABS 
