 Poster: A snowHead
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1) If you fit and set up boots for a skier from scratch - ie make and optimise footbeds, base plate of boot etc etc...if you get all this as close as possible to perfect for the individual skier do you still need to align the shaft of the boot or does the rest of the preparation negate the need for this in most cases ?
2) If the boot and footbed has not been set up "properly" is it dangerous or at least unadviseable to make adjustments to the shaft/leg alignment before having the footbed etc checked ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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krunchie63,
1, if your talking about 'Cuff Alignment' yes you should always do it as aligning the foot is different to aligning lower leg. We do it by feel and by eye, although have the tools to measure if it seems we're struggling
2. No, you can align the cuff to compensate for a 'Poorly supported' foot. But a good footbed is a preferable place to start as it can add Dorsiflexion and have a big effect on the skier.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks SZK - there might be a couple of friends of mine from Iran paying you a visit in a few weeks ! I hope they are satisfied with their new boots because I don't want to see either of us on TV in an orange jumpsuit.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I seem to get everyone from Iran. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Do they all break into dance upon entering the shop like that comedian chap on TV?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER
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2. No, you can align the cuff to compensate for a 'Poorly supported' foot. But a good footbed is a preferable place to start as it can add Dorsiflexion and have a big effect on the skier.
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Big call SZK - can you elaborate on this!
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tailskidder, Nope, not on a Forum. Big call if you're a little FISH. 
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SZK
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Nope, not on a Forum. Big call if you're a little FISH.
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Should posters make statements on an open forum then not back them up?
IMHO
Dorsiflexion is the outcome of these muscles at work; tibialis anterior, extensor hallucis longus and extensor digitorum longus (the foot raises). It is measured as an angle from the lower leg to the foot, therefore we should challenge you.
I would defend and support that a well made orthotic/footbed/insole would accommodate the foots behaviour and function, allowing the foot to relax in this hostile environment. 'As you suggest' this is a preferable position to accommodate varus or valgum low leg axis (alignment).
I would also support that a properly fitted ski boot and footbed along with correct cuff alignment would relax the foot/lower leg thus enabling the extensor and flexor muscle groups to function efficiently, increasing flexion and extension movements. (Is this what you really meant)
How a footbed would ‘add’ dorsal flexion is a ‘biomechanical mystery’ to me and I would like to hear your view on this whether it is via a PM or via this Forum.
The footbed engages with the planta surface while the aforementioned muscles are on the top of the foot. Due to the very nature of dorsiflexion it would in fact raise the foot away from the insole.
Comment please – or do we smell something more than fish?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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tailskidder, thats tellin em FISH indeed.
krunchie63, Interesting question as there seems to be a lot of discussion on EPIC about the NEED to have your boot shells ground to get alignment right. Not knowing anything about fitting or biomechanics it seems to me unless you have very unusual bone structure that a well made foot bed should sort out most if not all allignment problems when coupled with selecting the right boot in the first place and correct set up of the cuff alignment.
I had some footbeds made this week at profeet in london this week and the boot fitter thought that shell grinding is almost never neccessary. Could be they dont have the equipment, or, could be it really isnt needed.
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tailskidder, not sure who you are [thought i knew, but was wrong] but you seem to have a pretty reasonable grasp of lower limb biomechanics, welcome to the nuthouse [athough i see you have been around a while]..... all very interesting and i must say i agree fully with what you have said...SZK may be mixing his words but i am sure he will come and re clarify...
skimottaret, sometimes shell planing is required often times it is not, just depends on the level at which you wish to go to...stage 1 footbed, stage 2 cuff ajust, stage 3 SBS internal shims stage 4 sole grind or wedges under binding if required
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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tailskidder,
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How a footbed would ‘add’ dorsal flexion is a ‘biomechanical mystery’ to me and I would like to hear your view on this whether it is via a PM or via this Forum
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Have you seen the effect that an overly supinated footbed had on Dorsiflexion? If not try standing in a supinated stance and watch your range of movement in the ankle. Then stand flat, slightly AB-Ducted maybe and see the difference. Therefore one made with the foot's natural function in mind will add dorsiflexion over one made supinated. Many Bootfitters try to increase edge preasure by Supinating their footbeds.
Such issues i keep brief as each case requires careful and personal consultation. descussing this in depth on a Forum can be misleading and to many, dull. I would simply wish to highlight the depth of such matters rather than descuss in too much detail here. It would seem, as Colin said, that you have a good understanding of lowerleg Bio-Mechs. How many on this Forum will understand your post? K.I.S.S 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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CEM, i appreciate it is hard to generalise but how often do you see people that 'genuinely' need to have a sole grind if they had boots selected correctly in the first place and went through your stages 1 2 and 3...
I am just wondering if boot grinding is a last ditch effort to fix a problem for people with odd alignment issues or if it is something that can genuinely transform your skiing as i have read elsewhere.
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skimottaret, Don't discount the effect of internal shims, they do change alignment quite a bit.
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, As a ski boot is a rigid structure, its design often doesn't allow for natural foot function. Whist a Footbed is important to assist this unnatural process, we need to be sympathetic to it's needs. As a result of this, alignment isn't always true and correct balancing/alignment can be combined with fit and flex to give greater control whilst allowing the foot to function better within a boot.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rjs, i would agree and can imagine that internal shims are quite effective. Your point makes me question even more if sole grinding is truly needed unless it is a real last ditch effort for problem people or for very high end skiers who can really feel the difference.
SMALLZOOKEEPER, thanks that makes sense but do you guys feel the need to grind soles often or do shims do the job as effectively?
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, Shims work and are so easy to mess about with, sole grinding is important when FIS height resrictions apply, as we cant add shims to the measuring area. Sole grinding is for racers and requires plug(race stock) boots. There could always be a volume issue that means shims cant be added i suppose, but we can always find volume in a plastic boot.
Ooo, it's going all EPIC on here. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, thanks again, sounds to me that grinding has its place for racers but is a bit of an indulgence for your average seasonaire or teaching pro unless they have a severe alignment problem...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, Given, both enthusiastic seasonaire and teaching pro's would benefit, provided they have plug to grind or volume for shim.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, fair dues i think if grinding was done after the initial boot selection or they were just way too tight for shims and you couldnt find enought material to grind out internally.
but, say for example you went to a proper bootfitter, listened to him and picked the best feeling boot from those offered, had a footbed made, set the cant right and then had the alignment checked visually and on one of those computerised pressure pad thingys that showed 50/50 weight distribution you wouldnt rush back and say "I heard that you can improve my skiing no end if i get my boot soles ground...."
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, it is one of those things that you either embrace or ignor, many fitters choose to ignor it as they don't have the tools to carry out the job or the skills to know when it is correct, if you look at the guys in the states you see 3 camps ones who do nothing, ones who work with the shims inside the boot and ones who plane boot soles/ use under binding wedges...IMO a combination of all three is required to get the very best set up
what you need to understand is that the wedges inside the boot affect the relationship between the foot and ankle inside the boot, they control excessive eversion of the sub talar joint, whereas planing the sole of the boot or placing wedges under the binding changes the relationship between the leg and the ground which can and does have a baring on knee position...heres the tricky bit...if you assess the skier standing ona flat level surface on two feet is this a true representaion of the position that yuo will be in when on skis on a soft surface [even the firmest snow will have some amount of give at some point compared to a hard floor] when we assess for shims we do a single leg test and move the hip across to simulate the foot position whist loaded in the turn.
As SMALLZOOKEEPER has said boots are generally planed for racers as they have insuficient volume for the shims inside the boot and they have multiple pairs of skis [putting wedges under every binding is time consuming and expensive.
more later
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skimottaret, good points you raise. My view is that bootfitters shouldn't necessarily go down the route of "fixing" alignment with footbeds, you are then straying into the realms of "corrective" as opposed to "supportive", then the discussion becomes are you qualified to dispense and/or prescribe orthotics. So in that sense, footbeds should not be used to (over)compensate for a physiological anomoly.
Another view of boot sole planing, is that actually, in the UK (Profeet, Surefoot etc. included) the understanding of alignment is in it's very infancy. Very very few bootfitters know, or understand it's importance and role in skiing. Two main schools/systems of alignment exist, insertion of canted shims inside the boot, and planing of the soles. So it's not that it's prevelant in the US/Canada, but rather, we as a nation of skiers just don't know anywhere near enough about it.
Don't underestimate the importance of correct alignment and how this affects the ski/snow relationship. After all, people quibble about a base edge angle of 0.5, 0.75 and 1 degree and claim to be able to feel the difference, a 0.5 degree adjustment of you boot sole will have the same effect.
Every season when I'm teaching, I take around 40% of my clients to the bootfitters, because I can see that their boot setup is affecting their skiing, their ability to edge the ski effectively. So, alignment will benefit mere mortal recreational skiers, just as they do racers!
Lange (comp series) actually produce interchangable toe and heel inserts that are already canted, so no need to grind those soles!
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veeeight, Corrective, hmm, a ski boot in itself is a corrective. No grey area. Fact. Therefore, should this become a debate for a court, Ski Boot over Corrective Orthotic, it would be impossible to Judge. Wrong or right, true.
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veeeight, I am on Lange freeride 120's so no interchange. FOr sure alignment is important and and I agree grinding/shims could help peeps that hadn't been fitted properly in the first place, but i remain dubious of its merits on an initial fit/boot selection unless you are a racer or have very bad alignment probs.
CEM, Interesting.... Seems to me grinding at the moment (at least in EU) is fairly "high end" and like a lot of new things will take time to filter down from racing and either be embraced, used ocassionaly when warranted or used for enthusiasts. I am guessing few places even have the gear to do it, let alone the expertise.
I am wondering if in the states those that do grind boots for rec skiers do it cause they can, and have the expensive gear to do it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| .........for sure alignment is important and and I agree grinding/shims could help peeps that hadn't been fitted properly in the first place........ |
Have to disagree with that. Correct boot fit is quite different from being correctly aligned or 'balanced' as they call it across the pond. A correct fitting boot & footbed (CEM's steps 1 & 2) can still leave your alignment quite a bit out. The problem for UK punters is that they don't know about steps 3 or 4 & the associated benefits. IMO this is not just stuff for expert skiers but is probably even more benefitial for lower ability levels as alignment issues can really hamper learning etc.
Interestingly I was banging on about the benefits of being correctly balanced a couple of years ago & very few people new what I was talking about. Now it seems that folks are catching on & realising that the boot to ski to ground interface is pretty important, problably not as important as the foot to boot interface, but still important.
I'm also the only person that I now of that has been balanced by both the 'inside' & 'outside' methods.
Whilst I was working alongside CEM at the recent NEC ski show & I took the opportunity of being measured for new boots & am now the proud owner of a pair of Atomic M110's which CEM fitted for me two days ago. CEM works closely with Andy McCann who's an alignment specialist who utilises the Neutraliser shim based alignment analysis system. Andy did his alignment analysis on me at the show using his special tilting platform system etc & then told me how I'd need to have my boots set-up, ie no. of degrees of shimming etc.
Andy then took my old Tecnica boots that were balanced & planed at by Bud Heishman in the US (after Martin Bell had me doing a few one legged drills during a lesson & thought that I had an alignment issue. I was then amazed at the difference Bud's work made to my skiing) & measured their set-up using his equipment that is accurate to one tenth of a degree. Bud's analysis methodology is quite different to Andy's system so I was really interested in comparing the results - & to be honest I was a little concerned that their conclusions might vary widely.
It turned out that Bud had set my Tecnica's up exactly the same as Andy's analysis. Andy's approach is to test the skier's 'one-footed balance' on each bare foot (supported by the skier's footbed) & then use a thin internal wedge/shim within the boot, between zeppa & the liner. Bud's method had me tested in my boots & if I remember correctly seemed to concentrate on the relative position of the knees over the feet etc by using a vertical gauge. Test shims were then placed under the boots to verify the findings. Boot soles were then planed accordingly.
When CEM fitted my Atomic's this week Andy re-did his analysis & it was established that I need a 3.5 degree adjustment to both boots which matched his intitial readings at the ski show & matched the planing Bud had down to the sols of my old boots. Andy then measured the zeppa in the Atomic's & discovered that these were already tilted laterally at 1.0 degree so I required 2.5 degree shims in both boots to get me spot on.
Bud also adjusted the forward lean & added toe lifts (which meant the boot's toe lugs had to be routed down) after seeing my position when clicked in to my Neox bindings on the B5's I was then using. Once my Atomic's were fully fitted & with the shims in place CEM removed the rear spoiler as it was giving me too much forward lean. Andy had me back on his tilting platform, but this time not barefoot but wearing my new boots, to balance me for fore/aft tilt. Ideally I need to have my toe lugs 2mm higher than my heels which is how Bud set me up by attaching plates under the toe lugs & then routing down the top of the lug to properly fit the binding. CEM has all the gear to do this but it's not possible on my Atomic boots as the lugs are hollow so the solution for me is to shim up the binding toe pieces on my skis.
Luckily it's is a doddle to shim up the VIST bindings as they offer a wide range of shims exactly for this purpose as they've been supplying racers who've been doing the exact same thing for years. The delta angle on the VIST bindings is actually +5mm at the heel so to get my toes 2mm high I need a 7mm shim up front. My old Neox bindings were +2mm at the heel so Bud had put a 4mm plate under the toe of the boot.
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I also had a session with Andi McCann this week, and the conclusion we reached was that 3 degree shims under both feet would be a good starting point for my alignment. As CEM described above, the assessment was done on one leg with some angulation to simulate being on a ski edge. I'll provide some feedback if I can after next week's skiing. I'm hoping that I will have a little bit more feeling for the little toe edge than I have had previously as this is always an area that I seem to struggle with.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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veeeight, it is not about correcting alignment with footbeds, i think the termanology is being mistaken, the job of the footbed is to help to stabilize the foot and assist it in as near a normal position as is possible...but what is normal?? the ideal is to align the bones of the foot and ankle so they are stacked neatly on top of each other so that the joints can fuction in an optimum way, but it is a combination of all the elements the footbed, the boot, the work done to the boot and muscle tone/strength that determines how the skier will stand/ski
to quote from Epic [and i don't want to do too deep]
the podiatrist will say the orthotic can correct it all, the physio will make out that core stability and muscle traing can correct it all and the world cup boot tech will say it can be done with sole planing etc etc etc.
it is all about balance, what is right for me is not right for you....... when we do an assesment for balance we have to determine what angle [side to side] that the base board of the boot is so as not to over or under supply on the shims classic examples
in addition to my kork footbed i require 2degees of full length shim to invert my foot to optimum balance, my head raptors have a 2degree inverted base board yipee i need no shims... the other day we measured the base board of a pair of lange world cup boots they were completey flat left and right, also measured was 2 different pairs of nordica speed machine 10 one pair was 1.5 degree inverted and the other pair was flat, a pair of salomon lab X3 was measured left boot 0.5 degree inverted all the way through, the right boot varied from flat to 2 degree inverted from the heel to the forefoot 
so a case of having to have the tools and then knowing what to do with them
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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spyderjon, great write up and dont get me wrong, i think getting the alignment checked and correct is a very good thing to do and i am sure will make a difference. I just question doing it via sole grinding and view that as a last resort....
Where is Andy based? I would be interested in getting this checked out as i have a problems with turns in one direction. The bootfitter at Profeet recons it is down to a lack of range of movement with one hip but it would be interesting to check out my alignment.
Does the computerised pressure pad system do a similar job to the alignment jigs Andi uses, or would you say that they just check for weight distribution?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
Let me put it another way - you cannot (trust me) increase (add) dorisflexion with a footbed - NEVER EVER.
If someone has inverted your clients foot with a dodgy footbed you will only ever regain the foots normal 'range of movement' - not increase dorisflexion. I'll leave it there as I am boring myself.
CEM,
We met once at a Biomechanics Summer school in Oxfordshire - I presented there and saw your name badge but didn't get time to catch up with you. (you'll laugh when you find out).
Grinding - my view
It is important to ensure that your client (or yourself) really needs it, never undrestimate your bodies ability to adapt (think of how many times you have caught an edge and survived!).
Try this - stand in midstance - flex ankle, knees and hip - now see what lateral movement you can make with the lower leg (approx 5 degrees lateral and 15 medial).
If you think you need to be fully alignment try this first.
Pop down to the gym and test the functional strenght of each leg on a number of machines. eg leg press, leg extension, leg curl etc. if there is a huge difference start by working on the weaker limbs untill you have parity, it will pay huge dividends on your skiing.
Flexibility and balance plays a major factor too, balance boards, single leg squats etc - in fact anything to increase your balance and proprioception (your bodies awareness in space.) The small foam discs are by far the best tool for this (admin can I put a link in here?).
If you still have difficulty and been through the mill (i.e. CEM 1,2 and 3 step description is spot on) then go and get shimmed or ground.
skimottaret, High end - yes, boots are so accomodative and ski so forgiving these days it really is for racers and John Wayne only.
P.S. Bodie Miller neither had footbeds, shims or sole grinding (or even ski socks) shocking but true.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 1-12-07 10:30; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 1-12-07 10:30; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 1-12-07 10:31; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 1-12-07 10:31; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You boys need to go skiing more.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Tailskidder, "P.S. Bodie Miller neither had footbeds, shims or sole grinding"
All that means is that Bode is naturally in alignment.
How can you say that it is only for racers and John Wayne?
Since when does alignment have anything to do with speed.
I agree with Spyderjon and Cem 100%.
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Ok alow me to make how i feel clear. A badly made Footbed may 'Decrease Dorsiflexion', therefore a sympathetically made one may add dorsifexion if compared to one that is over supinated. OOps. More tea vicar.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, sory forgot to answer your point,
a pressure plate is designed to show weight distribution, and plantar pressure through any one point in the foot, there is a school of thought that says you can determine alignment by seeing how the pressure goes through the sole of the boot, it depends on the pressure plate, but many of them have a slightly soft surface on the top of them which would be damaged by standing in ski boots on them....ignoring that fact my thoughts are that it is very easy to shift weight from one side to the other without conscious effort so the out come could be affected.
the SBS machine that we use with Andi is designed to give a single leg test you can see a picture on our web site on this page http://www.solutions4feet.com/pwpcontrol.php?pwpID=40
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Ok new question spinning of from my rant. Does making orthotics in windlass reduce dorsiflexion? I think so.
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FAQ
