 Poster: A snowHead
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As I understand it; too much lead on the inner ski may mean you're slightly out of balance when looking at the balance over both skis as a whole.
The skier may be balanced (fore/aft) on the outside ski, but slightly aft (due to excessive lead) on the inner ski thereby putting more pressure through the tail. The inner ski is then prone to shearing.
Is shearing of the inner ski an indicator that the skier is already out of fore/aft balance for good/clean initiation of the next turn?
All thoughts on this subject are welcome. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Snowshark,  I'm waiting to read..... but can you tell us exactly what you mean when you describe shearing of the inside ski
Re the aft on inside ski part....
AIUI ...that foot is designed to be in that alignment when we walk (we land onto the heel of our swing foot).... When you are doing an Inside Leg Extension(ILE) transition you are using this and the foot's natural drive from supinated into pronated as it becomes weighted....
Counter leads to tip lead which is necessary to allow inside leg out of way at higher edge angles... also suitable counter helps balance over outside ski edge...
Sorry I explain this badly.... please queue Fastman to come and tidy up my mess...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Snowshark, if I lift the inside ski off the ground does the tip of that ski start to lead? Is there any way for me to stop that?
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little tiger, Shearing: basically it's when the tip of the ski describes a different arc/line to the tail of the ski in a carved turn.
Ideally, the tails should follow the track of the tips through the turn (Unless we are deliberately skidding.)
It also occurs when skiers are performing skidded turns and the tips start to get further away from each other with the tails getting closer.
There may be two separate issues here.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Snowshark, I'd just say you were not carving...
and diverging is the way i was taught to say diverging 
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comprex,
| Quote: |
Snowshark, if I lift the inside ski off the ground does the tip of that ski start to lead? Is there any way for me to stop that?
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Good point. I'll need to think about that one next time I'm on skis. But in days of old, we used to lift the inside ski to get an idea of how well we balanced on the outer ski. Tip down - forward. Tail down - back. Level ski - central. In those days, more inner ski tip lead was deemed desireable.
The only way I can see this being countered... is not to counter rotate in the longer GS type turns but be squarer in stance. Short swings, there'll be counter rotation and I would think, lifting the inner ski the body would naturally put it in the lead. Thinking about it, trying to pull it back from the hip may lead to unwanted rotation of the hips throwing everything out of balance. Again, I'll try it next time I'm on Snow. (Friday.)
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little tiger, for the purpose of the discussion, the outer ski carves perfect lines in the snow. The inner ski carves perfect lines for the early part of the turn then shears. (Diverges.)
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Snowshark, Ok but I was taught carving = two skis carving(unless I am skiing on only 1).... 1 ski skidding/sliding/shearing = not carved... just a turn using the outside ski's inside edge(or the other way around if you really want)...
Can you clarify if you are talking of excessive tip lead? or just some tip lead? In the previous thread there was discussion of tips being "the same" and some tip lead is needed as I understand it (see above).... I currently drive my new inside hip forward when my new outside(old inside) leg starts to pick up the weight as it extends... this allows me some early counter and gets my old inside foot back under me as it becomes the loaded foot(gait mechanics similar to walking again)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Snowshark, also one thing I was working on with the italian was being more focused at getting my hips extended again to start the new turn... which also re-centres you...
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little tiger, Ideally the tips should be equal.
However....
| Quote: |
Is shearing of the inner ski an indicator that the skier is already out of fore/aft balance for good/clean initiation of the next turn?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Snowshark, I do not think so...
Try to get to a very high edge angle with your tips level... you will get blocked... now counter just a bit and see how much further you can get... You do not need the amount of counter you did before maybe... so "more level"... but no tip lead is not right I believe...
BTW - you can try that now I believe...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger, Try feet and knees further apart.
Some tip lead is almost inevitable but as you know, not as much as before.
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little tiger, Can we work from the feet up?
I've no doubt your Italian friend had no issues with shearing. Recentering is an important aspect prior to turn initiation.
But is a shearing/diverging ski an indicator, apart from not carving correctly, that fore/aft balance, on both skis as a whole, is already out.
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You know it makes sense.
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Skidding inside ski in a carve is an indicator you are not carving properly... now why you are skidding it... what sort of skid? and why does it happen? I would think many possible answers one or more of which may be balance related... Just insufficient angle on inside ski would give that result yes? (eg not same angles on skis) you would then be steering that ski and there would be a resultant smear...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Snowshark wrote: |
little tiger, Ideally the tips should be equal.
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| Snowshark wrote: |
Some tip lead is almost inevitable but as you know, not as much as before. |
these two statement are contradictory - I'm confused.. which are you arguing? none? or some?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry - I'm too confused... I'll wait for Fastman to come and fix my mess up... sleep time for me
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Snowshark wrote: |
little tiger, Try feet and knees further apart.
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I did - for years... my instructor is 6'3" and 100kg ... me 5'2.5" and I have narrow hips so the physio tells me... I used to ski at a width that was pretty much the same as instructor... it took me quite a while to narrow it down because they would not force me to any width but wanted me to find my own natural comfort spot...
I still have quite a "wide" stance compared to those who learnt on old skis - but then I learnt on only new skis...
I was and often still am given a ribbing about my stance width... (Including the standard liking a girl who can keep her legs apart)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, Not really contradictory. What is ideal and what is almost inevitable...
The scenario is the inner ski starts carving well in the early part of the turn.
Again, we're looking for what it might be indicative of.
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Oops. Just notist a spelin mysteak in ve fread tytal. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hey, good topic. Tip lead is a necessary component of high edge angle carving. Take a look here: http://ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007/slides/schild-aare-2006-sl-2.html
The reason is two fold. First, counter is required to remain in balance while attaining high angles, and counter drives inside tip lead. Second, big angles require massive inside knee flexion, and the stiffness of a ski boot will not allow the ankle to flex enough to keep pace with the knee, so the inside foot winds up getting somewhat fore of the inside hip. This is what makes a forward CM move during the transition so important. Lack of that move is a common reason so many seem to be perpetually stuck in the back seat. They never re-center.
In lower edge angle turns less counter is required, as is less inside leg flexing, so it is easier to intentionally eliminate tip lead. However, a problem arises when this no tip lead picture, attainable in low edge angle turns, becomes ones template to aspire to in all turns. It can cause a skier to shy away from the counter that's needed to take carving to the next level. There was a time in the early days of shape skis that instructional models struggling to come to grips with how to use the new equipment got confused and advocated square stances, no counter, no tip lead, parallel shins, and 50/50 weight distribution. While this worked well for skiers learning to carve (and that included many instructors), it also embedded a bio-mechanical block to higher edge angles. If you've heard the term "park and ride", this rotationally squared approach to carving is a fast track path to that outcome. It was a very common thing to see for quite a while in the early shape ski days.
For performance skiing, the general rule will be; the higher the edge angle, the more counter/lead is appropriate. At low edge angles (which is what you see in 90 percent of the carving happening on resort slopes) It's very possible and appropriate to remain relatively square, with just the minimum counter needed to pronate the outside ski, and ski with little noticeable inside tip lead. But to go beyond that intro carving threshold, more counter/angulation/lead needs to be incorporated into the movement process. If you take a close look at snowhot's video clip, you will see the rotationally static skiing I'm talking about. Not only is the balance point frequently aft, but there is limited flexion/extension, and the hips and shoulders consistently stay directionally aligned with the skis. In other words, she follows her skis. Eventually, if she's to capture an much higher Ah-ha moment, she will need to learn how to rotationally separate her body from her skis. Would I suggest that as the first training step she should take to move towards higher performance levels? No. There are other things that need tending to first. But it's something that eventually will need to be addressed.
Now,,, with that said,,, can one over do it with counter and tip lead? You bet. Counter and tip lead beyond what's needed to provide balance can be detrimental. It can cause skiers to become scissored and out of balance. Over pressuring of the inside ski and tails is a common negative result, as is a deterioration of carve quality. This is very obvious to see when it occurs.
Now, to the topic of 2 ski carving. In low edge angle turns it is quite doable to cleanly carve both the inside and outside ski. But when edge angles rise that possibility becomes more remote. To carve parallel skis, the inside ski needs to ride a higher edge angle, which means the inside ski needs to be tipped onto a higher edge. At high edge angles, good luck with that. Very hard to impossible to ski artificially bow legged at high edge angles.
So then, what really happens at high angles? A couple other options exist. First, a skier can keep the skis parallel, rotationally tension the inside leg, and power the inside ski through the turn so it stays in directional harmony with the carving/turn shape dictating outside ski. That rotational tension of the inside leg injects the inside ski steering necessary to keep it tracking the direction changing of the outside ski.
The other option is to employ a bit of a divergence of the inside ski at the start of the turn. Translation: manually turn the inside ski in the direction of the coming turn as you come out of the transition, so that the skis are no longer parallel, but resemble a reversed snowplow. From that point, both skis can carve the entire turn and the inside ski does not need to carve a sharper turn to stay with the outside ski. See it here in image 3: http://ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007/slides/poutiainen-aspen-2006-gs-1A.html
And here, image 3-8: http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2004/slides/maier-sg-2-final.html
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| Snowshark wrote: |
Is shearing of the inner ski an indicator that the skier is already out of fore/aft balance for good/clean initiation of the next turn?
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Check out my prior post. Could just be a natural consequence of a high edge angle turn, and the quality of the initiation of the new turn will be dependant on the quality of the forward re-centering move implemented during the transition.
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Also, Snowshark, a skilled skier will be able to make a "good/clean initiation of the next turn", regardless of the state of balance he/she enters that turn in. Developing that skill base is the golden egg skiers who truly want to improve should be shooting for.
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FastMan, Many thanks for such a definitive answer.
However I have another question which I'm hoping you can answer with the same clarity: If the inside ski of turn is diverging, tail pressured and not following the track of the tip, at the end of the turn, would that possibly be indicative of late recentering and/or transition?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FastMan, Our posts just crossed in the ether. I think you answered prior to my last question. 
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| Snowshark wrote: |
FastMan, Many thanks for such a definitive answer.
However I have another question which I'm hoping you can answer with the same clarity: If the inside ski of turn is diverging, tail pressured and not following the track of the tip, at the end of the turn, would that possibly be indicative of late recentering and/or transition? |
I'll answer this a little more directly than I did by happenstance in my last post. The short answer is, it could be.
If one is heavy on the tail of a diverging inside ski after the apex, I'm envisioning some significant balance and/or rotational issues. Done properly, the inside ski after the apex should be parallel to, or even converging with, the outside ski. Conveging because the stance width (Distance between the feet) is in the process of narrowing while the edge angle is being reduced and moving back to neutral (flat ski) during the transition. Diverging after the apex is (and excuse the dual word usage) counter to what's generally needed to produce a quality arc to arc turn. It could have a few origins. "Indicative of late recentering and/or transition?" Perhaps. I also would be taking a close look at lateral balance. Level shoulders at the end of the turn, or is the inside shoulder dropping? Dropping would cause a fall onto the inside ski. Or, is it a case of the body getting ahead of the skis,,, leaning toward the turn exit before the skis actually take him/her there, out of impatient anticipation? This too causes a fall onto the inside ski. Such falls, if a consistent pattern to ones skiing, can result in the skier subconsciously/spontaneously diverging that ski the body knows will be fell upon, so that it is pointing in the direction of the desired turn completion upon the time of the fall. And old school skiers used to do a lot divergent stepping at the end of their turns. It could be a residual of muscle memory from those days gone by. Really would need to see a video of the particular person to deduce the most likely cause for their individual situation.
In any case, I would definitely feel some basic lateral and fore/aft balance training was in order. Get the person more in touch with the balance platform they're riding. Help them gain a keener sensory awareness of it, and learn to manage that platform. Help them learn to perform in multiple states of lateral and fore/aft balance, and develop the ability to change balance states at will, at any point during a turn. Then guide them as to what is most efficient. Just working on that can often nip in the bud the root skill deficiencies that make themselves known in various veiled ways.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Tip lead is inevitable when you get high edge angles, pivoting, high inclination, steep terrain etc.
Tip lead should occur as a result of something else (inclination, steep terrain etc) - but should not occur as a deliberate action.
It is impossible to eliminate, but most racers work on managing tip lead (reducing it) - the last thing we want to do is to positively encourage it (as it leads to the hip dropping to the inside of the turn, inside ski dominance etc.)
What you refer to as "shearing" could be the same as me refering to as "scissoring" (ie: inside ski diverging away from the outside ski) in which case yes, the skier is most probably incorrectly balanced to the inside.
So: lateral, yes, the skier is out of lateral balance, fore/aft: probably, if it is a large amount of tip lead and/or scissoring, chances are that the outside ankle will be overflexed, and the inside ankle will be highly extended - not a great position in terms of fore-aft.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FastMan, veeeight, Two issues here have started to make sense.
The skier is question is old school still coming to terms with progress. The sympton is now not alsways apparent and when it is - definitely reduced. However, I'm still trying to work out the reasons for it happening. Thanks guys, you are helping.
From what you have posted and what I know, the problem may have origins with impatience to get into the turn. The impatience to get into the turn may not be helping with balance ssues, lateral, fore and aft. Although this has largely been reduced, it's not all the time. The hip dropping to the inside of the turn too early (falling, almost stumbling onto the inside ski at the start - especially at low speed) was once common fo this skier. I'm now wondering if it is still occurring as before but later in the turn, masked to some extent by speed (but not entirely). The tracks occasionally reveal the shearing/scissoring/diverging effect of the inside ski - although not as extreme as..... (Ah ha Moment)
Now I think of it, as the skier improved control and reduced the likelihood of falling onto the inside ski at the start, the amount of shearing/scisorring evident in the tracks at the latter and end phase were reduced.
All the evidence and from what has been discussed does indeed point to balance issues, but not quite how I thought.
There is a correllation. As the lost of balance at the start of the turn reduced, the evidence in the tracks in the latter phase of the turn reduced.
The balance and body management issues that you've discussed seem most likely to reveal physical answers. I'll be looking more closely at the middle of the turn. And also the aspects of body management and balance issues mentioned. Thanks guys.
It may also be that the skier is/was trying too hard to get where he/she wants.
Unfortunately I have no video. (My next investment.) although I can appreciate the value of such analysis.
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FAQ
that is without face planting. 
