 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What is the start of a turn? When I am doing linked turns where does one turn finish and the next one start? Is there any standard definition of start and end of a turn?
PS what is a ".ram" file?
PPS Is it good practice to finish every sentence with a question mark?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Generally, the end of one turn and the start of the next is at the transition - when the skis are flat, or at neutral.
A .ram file can be played with Real Player.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 7-08-07 22:12; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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veeeight, hehe, that's a good way of saving on ski carriage charges 
Adrian, it's a realplayer file.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pole plant intiates the turn... (at the start)
unless your hungover and dragging your poles.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Are these 'linked turns' what the skier is doing in the video?
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veeeight, puh-lease. Of course it does.
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veeeight, what this does illustrate is that 1. you don't need to spend money on skis, 2. sidecut makes no difference, 3. length makes little difference (although I know one lady who would suggest that rhythm makes a huge difference...<snigger>) etc
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| ...I know one lady who would suggest that rhythm makes a huge difference...<snigger>) etc |
That's, errr, not what I heard mate. The lovely lady mentioned something about you "needing an 'and with your technique". I am, of course, much too innocent to know what the lovely lady is talking about. 
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It is difficult to tell when one of my turns has finished or the next one started as they are all linked in a seamless fluidity 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, OK OK! so we are back in the bar doing turns again 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I suppose a question we should ask is: Is that video an example of a skier doing the pole plant properly ?
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Well, what a disappointingly dull thread. I read it as 'pot plant' and thought it was going to be entertaining.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yes the pole plant is happening before the edge change - but I think this is a bit misleading. What it seems to me we are seeing is some superbly controlled tight, fast linked turns - so closely linked that one turn is starting well before the previous one has finished. So the pole plant that is starting e.g. turn 5 is happening about half way through turn 4, i.e. just about the time the puff of snow shows up at the fronts of the skis as the pressure buildup kicks in - on the same side of the skier as the pole plant. So initially it seemed to me as if he was pole planting on the wrong side of the turn.
As such I think it's a bit misleading to think of it happening at the end of a turn - his skis are actually turning away from the pole at the time of the plant. However his body is preparing for e.g. turn 5 while the skis are still making turn 4 - i.e. upper/lower body separation taken to its extreme. Something similar has happened to me on a couple of (too rare) occasions when getting a tight combination in a slalom course right - you have to start preparing your body/mind to commit to turn N+1 (and some cases even N+2) while you're still in the middle of making turn N - i.e. the situation Frosty the Snowman describes so elegantly (even if he didn't realise it ).
For more "normal" skiing though surely the body preparation would not overlap the turn completion anything like as much (or at all).
Thoughts?
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Poster: A snowHead
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GrahamN, an excellent analysis, to me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
the puff of snow shows up at the fronts of the skis
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GrahamN, are you referring to the clip in the first post, in which case, have you got your reading glasses on?
This is one of those topics where there are 2 schools of thought, the start of the turn, or the end of the turn. But of course there is only 1 correct answer
Here's an exchange from an instructor forum regarding the pole plant. This was spurred by a drill....
As I've said previously, this topic is a hugely complex one, and is not always readily understood by many instructors.
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The drill he introduces to rythmically pole plant is a good one. It's interesting to hear how he times the pole plant at the end rather than the start of a turn (which is probably where we tend to tell lower level skiers that it belongs) in order to block those naughty rotational movements.
With regards to his "blocking pole plant" - i also feel it's important that the pole plant should be a flicking type motion without any movement from the shoulders; ideally all wrist, and only a little from the elbow. Otherwise i've found the pole plant sometimes does more harm than good with regards to pivoting. Is this correct?
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I wouldn't say more harm than good but it should definatley come from the wrist/forearm as apposed to the shoulder.
Using the shoulder can lead to rotation...
From my point of view the pole plant DEFINATELY ends the turn.
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Rather than thinking of turns as a series of linked "C's", think of a turn as being from the fall line on one side to the fall line on the other. The feet should move fluidly along the arc from one fall line to the next, changing the edges on the skis when the feet crosses under the mass.
If you look at a turn from this perspective, the pole plant will occur in the completion of the turn. In this phase you are stopping the lateral forces from the snow that are causing the skis to turn by reducing the edge angle on the skis. The momentum of these turning forces on the body needs to be stopped as well, a blocking pole plant as described above will assist, therefore I agree that the pole plant occurs at the end of a turn.
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The transition begins when your body is released from the forces of the turn, and its momentum carries it in a straighter line than your feet are traveling. This is where the expert feels release and the illusion of acceleration. In the extreme, the skis pop, the feet fly to the outside of the new turn, and the body shoots down the hill in anticipation of the force that will develop when the skis engage the snow to make the next arc.
There is a particularly crucial moment in the transition. It is the point at which your center of gravity’s path crosses over the path of your feet. The skis at this moment are running straight and flat on the snow. Consequently, the more accurately the skier can sense the crossover point, the more easily he can turn his skis without unweighting to disengage them from the snow. For the same reason, it is the point at which the pole plant can have the greatest turning effect on the skier.
(Ron LeMaster, The Skiers Edge)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, what happens when you're planting your pole starting from a traverse after lunch. If it's at the end of the turn that implies that some of my turns can last a good couple of hours and involve a decent glass of red and maybe a sneaky poire.
Should I incorporate the sneaky poire perhaps into all of my turns?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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David Murdoch, Only if Jagermeister is involved.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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One of those " analyse this to bug" threads. If people are unsure.. I am not sure this helps..
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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GrahamN, oh HELP! I do try and read these threads carefully, so as to learn from them, but this is making my brain hurt. Thing is, ultimately there's nothing to beat a good instructor watching you do something incorrectly, pointing out the mistakes and devising ways of helping you to correct them. If you're lucky enough to be nannied through that process, you will FEEL the difference, and then it's a question of practising so as to acquire enough muscle memory for you to be able to do as much as possible instinctively. I like written words (surprise, surprise) but sometimes they just don't cut the mustard.
Also, I have the feeling that in some of these matters of technique, one size doesn't necessarily fit all. I probably flog this analogy to death, but it's like playing a musical instrument. I have small hands for a pianist, and there are technical ways round coping with that, sometimes, which would be contra-indicated for someone with large hands. Those techniques were taught to me by a good teacher, who carefully watched the problems in action and then gave me tailor-made advice.
Sorry, maybe I'm just being naive and betraying my inexpert level of skiing. Perhaps it's that these threads work well as a forum for experts to discuss angels on pinheads amongst themselves, and there is no place for the intermediate, or advanced-intermediate, or whatever the hell I am, skier. Dunno.
Back to the drawing board. (A small amount of work this afternoon wouldn't come amiss. )
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The pole plant starts the turn.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, I think this is all a bit too much too. KISS as I'm always saying. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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All IMVHO...
For quick turns I think it helps to think of the pole plant coming at the end of the turn and thus initiating the next turn with no pause. If you're happy to do wider turns with a bit of traversing across the slope then thinking of the pole plant at the begining of the turn is ok.
For me the problem comes when you need to be quick (eg moguls) and you're thinking of the pole plant as the start of the turn you end up with a bit of "dead space" between the turns as the brain thinks, where shall I initiate the next turn... ah there... right now stick it with the pole... and we turn - nice! By which time you are letting the moguls dictate far too much where you turn and you end up not necessarily coming down the zip line. Whereas if you get a rythm going and think "sod it - I'm turning whatever happens" you can think of pole planting at the end of the turn so you force yourself into the next turn and just trust your body to cope; when I've done this on the rare occasion then I've done a great set of bumps.
Flame suit on...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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veeeight,  can't get the vid to connect.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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RachelQ, Defintely Got Sole......
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That's not the end of the turn, that's the start, it initiates the new turn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, ahh, the irony is lost, non?
But to get back into the ski related topics (as opposed to "how to ski with no skis" [makes me wonder why we bother with them in the first place...]) your RB-Ski-...vid is v. nice. But begs the questions - aren't his legs too close together in modern style (I think not, very elegant) and aren't his pole plants too dynamic (clearly not). Nice, nice footage.
We also have to get into bump technique a la bucking bronco, where anticipation (or pre-rotation) AIUI (as I understand it) actively triggers the turn. bucking bronco, if you don't mind my comments, it kind of sounds as though you're kind of doing what I know I used to do - i.e. treat a line of bumps as a line of interconnected turns. IMVHO they're not, they're just a bunch of single "turns on bumps" that just happen to occur sequentially.
Once I made that distinction, my bump skiing came on immensely.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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David
Of course I don't mind your comments, afterall my flame suit is certified for full on napalm  I see where you're coming from.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
veeeight, ahh, the irony is lost, non?
But begs the questions - aren't his legs too close together in modern style (I think not, very elegant) and aren't his pole plants too dynamic (clearly not). Nice, nice footage.
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ahh, the irony is indeed lost 
Re the stance, I think where many people get hung up is that stance width is not a static width to be applied across all terrain and intent, so, IMV for highly dynamic high performance short radius turns such as those, you cannot have that amount of mobility with a "standard" hip width stance (which is only a starting point anyway).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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veeeight, yep, I'd agree with you.
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before attempting to answer this question, don't we need to agree on the precise point at which one turn ends and the next one begins?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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(( _______________ here is the transition (in the gap), where the skis are flat (neutral).
' ))
((
' ))
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veeeight, I think his "skis" need the Spyderjon, treatment which would help highlight the transition point.
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FAQ
. And again from what I see (with or without reading glasses 
