Full time "professional" vs. part time "amateur" instructors

A snowHead

There has been a bit of debate on various threads about the merits and quality of part time grade 3 BASI's, ASSI's, CI’s delivering instruction in the UK and abroad. I recon that most of the instruction delivered in the UK is by part timers and that there are only a very small number of full timers primarily employed as instructors.

I have been told by a BASI trainer that there are roughly 5,000 current BASI members with less than 500 grade 1's (including 70 or so trainers). I am guessing that only the grade 1's and a handfull of grade 2's are full time "professionals"

How do you feel about having your kids and other beginners taught by part timers?
Is BASI right to take over the level 1 and effectively killing off the ASSI qualification?
Should there continue to be a Club Instructor rating?

It isn't just BASI, as an interesting survey from the CSIA membership reveals:

55% of CSIA instructors teach part-time
13% actually teach full-time.
27% do not actively teach with approximately 5% of CSIA instructors teaching outside of Canada.

A snowHead

skimottaret, given the number of "i'm a ski instructor" people I've met in Australia with a CSIA 1 or 2 that have never taught a lesson I'd say that seems accurate... My ex got most upset when he took one skiing and "reduced her to tears"(he is an instructor trainer although no lonegr working as such)... I had to point out the discrepancy between CSIA 2 and APSI 2 (CSAI 3 and APSI 2 are both ISIA level) before he got why "a level 2 should be able to ski anything" was not working for him....

I'd always pick an experienced instructor to teach my friends/kids etc... Mostly that would mean an APSI 3 or equivalent... especially for early lessons... I have chosen to ski with APSI 2's who were about to take or part way through their APSI 3... and I know some CSIA 3's that I'd prefer anyday over certain CSIA 4's (no dear I do not care what colour you want to paint your house or what furnishings you are buying and is it significant your other half is a CSIA 4? Is losing 3 members of a 6 person class in 1 bump run through trees part of your level 4 training technique?)

I prefer to choose those that I find to be adaptable - because that works for me.... Just that in general I find that race coaches or those with race backgrounds are more adaptable than run of the mill instructors (- I'd guess because their biomechanics and MA are a litlle stronger)... and I find that the type of instructor I enjoy to work with rarely comes in a less qualified or less experienced package...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

And here we go again.

*gets popcorn out and waits for the armchair experts*

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To me, it's completely irrelevant what their jobs status is.
Are they a good teacher? Can they listen, understand and explain in a way that encourages, challenges and leads to improvement? Are they humble - does their skill outstrip their ego? Are they enthusiastic?

Sometimes the most enthusiastic are the part-timers who do it because they love doing it, rather than having it as their main source of income. (but enthusiasm doesn't mean they are good or bad teachers)

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After all it is free

graeme, I'm the consumer of end product.... You can make all the fancy food with super duper menu names you want but if no one wants to eat it is your restaurant successful?

Ditto the lessons ... My ex told me a story of himself as a younger brasher instructor heading to switzerland and landing a husband and wife pair wife was for a lesson - she was not as good a skier as him and the lesson was bought to "get her up to speed". They were to be in the resort for a week and she was to have lessons. He taught the lesson of his (young) life (in his short experience as a ski instructor) and made real inroads into improving her technique... He was quite chuffed with himself at the end of the day and was strutting around a bit... when an old swiss instructor shook his head and firmly stated "she won't be back" . He asked why and the old guy responded "You did not give her what she wanted, she will NOT be back" She wasn't! If you ask him about it he will tell you he has learnt an awful lot about ski instruction since those days.

Bottom line is - I'm paying you... If I don't like the product for my purpose I will not keep buying.

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veeeight

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skimottaret, this illustrates the point about ski instructing, lots of people can do the job competently so lots of people will do it part time, whether for extra money, as a social thing, because they're enthusiasts, 'cos they like teaching, 'cos it helps their own skiing etc etc. They'll be very variable in quality, but there'll always be better qualified full time pros who can teach/coach advanced skiers/racers or difficult learners.

little tiger, I don't always agree with you, but you're right there, in a service industry, the customer is always right (except where safety is a consideration), safety/enjoyment/learning in that order, soft skills are more important than hard ones.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Some part time instructors have more passion for teaching than full time instructors.
Some instructors i know who work full time as a chosen career spend little to no time developing skills once they have there qualification or medal to prove what they are.

Some part time instructors who have equal skills to the full timers spend all spare time skiing and improving on what they already know,hence(imo) can give first class instruction. Even though they hold another career in a different field the way they teach can be first rate.

The couple of seasons i did years ago i was always amazed how many full time instructors did not go out to enjoy and possibly improve on what they already know on their days off!

A snowHead

A snowHead

slikedges, yeah I have noticed that the more experienced instructors seem to be very good at appearing to give client what they want, often while also giving them what they think they need.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Errrrrr, if you get paid your a professional aren't you?

I've had some bloody good tips and pointers from amateur (that's unpaid) coaches though.

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So far, in the space of one month, the armchair experts have determined:

1. That you can determine how good an instructor someone is in real life by the way they post on an internet forum (dare I mention psychological profiling wink

?)

2. Race training is the only way forward for an intermediate, ergo, a first year medical student should specialise straightaway in neurosurgery without bothering with the rest of basic training

3. You can only be taught to ski by a highly qualified instructor who has done the TT, ergo, everyone learning to drive must be taught by instructors that have raced Lewis Hamilton and got within 18% of his time

4. etc.

And while I'm up here getting dizzy from the height of this horse, I might as well pull in another comment made elsewhere about certain ski schools wanting to see you ski well before they hire you. Strangely enough, most other ski school managers I know in the rest of the world outside Europe (AUS, NZ, CAN, USA etc.) who hire ski instructors base their hiring decision mainly on the basis of the ability of the candidate's interaction with the clients. "We can teach them to ski, but we can't necessarily change their teaching ability and outlook towards clients" is a well used mantra.

However in Europe it seems much more important to be seen to be able to ski well (vast generalisation), as opposed to the capability of interacting and engaging instruction well.

Which brings us nicely back to the topic. As I've said before, it is quite often the case that so called "amateur" instructors in the UK actually do a far better job at *teaching* students/clients than those who have a collection of tufty badges.

Are we saying that no-one should ever be taught to drive by a part time driving instructor, even though they have been assessed and passed all their assessments and examinations, purely on the basis that they don't do that job full time? That you cannot learn the basic of cooking unless taught by a 3 star Michelin chef who owns and runs a string of restaurants full time?

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pro·fes·sion·al (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

So you can be professional simply by being paid but are a professional only if you earn a living in that area.... that is how I always understood it and dictionary seems to agree

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skimottaret,

I'd disagree with a few of your comments in your first post, ie that most grade 1s are full time, a few grade 2s and not many grade 3s. I don't think it can be as easily catergorised as that. Firstly, I know lots of grade 3s who are currently full time professionals. Probably only a few seasons into their career, which explains why they are still grade 3s. Conversely, I know a good handful of grade 1s and grade 2s who no longer teach much, or who "only" teach part time. This doesn't in my view make them any less professional.

It can't be denied that ski instructing is, except foa few lucky people, a career that does not easily mix with long term relationships (particularly if your partner also has a career), children, or financial stability. Therefore a lot of people - Brits in particular, I think a lot of Europeans are lucky enough to be based locally, therefore have both worlds, will be full time instrutors for 3, 5, 10 years, before deciding that for other reasons they want to return to the UK. They probably still feel passionately about teaching skiing, therefore many will continue to work part time.

Most part time instructors i know have a few seasons behind them, or maybe in front of them. I think i fall into this category. I would love to teach full time, but finances (student debts!) and a partner whose career could not be based in a ski resort mean i can't. I hope to again in the future, at least for a season or two!

After all it is free

skimottaret, you don't need an excuse for starting this thread or any similar one. In a subject like skiing lots of "armchair experts" know an awful lot, sometimes more than lesser qualified "professionals". Anyway it is wholly the point of an open internet forum for everyone to be encouraged to post their thoughts and ideas. That's what keeps them vibrant and makes the medium unique.

Not surprised by comparable proportions of BASI and CSIA part-timers. The seasonal influence on outdoor snow and all-surface demand mean that even in season only the best or the most determined can be truly full-time. Whether teaching in a dome, on the local carpeted or snowy hill or at an international standard resort you need a job that'll feed you all year, so you're most likely to be part-time seasonal instructor/full-time all year something else than full-time seasonal ski instructor/full-time seasonal something else, and the latter more than full time all year ski instructor. Part-timers are desirable, essential and inevitable because of this, and as long as they know their limits (which may well be expansive) I'm sure many do a very good job.

beanie1, good points well made, perhaps it was a stretch on my part just looking at stats and trying to make conclusions from them regarding what grades work full time vs part time. As you rightly say personal circumstances probably dictate the part time versus full time professionals.

There are plenty of people who have argued that at the early stage of learning you are best served by a highly trained and seasoned pro, others have argued that it isnt rocket science teaching plough turns to beginners and early stage instructors are more than adequate. Just wanted to spur some debate on the subject...

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skimottaret, they're almost certainly better but there just aren't enough highly trained and seasoned pros around, as it's seasonal work. Main thing is the people teaching the beginners are themselves taught well how to teach and that standards are monitored and maintained. In my limited experience I'd guess the latter is the big problem, not that what they're teaching is very difficult to get right.

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How many clients will go to the ski school and ask very detailed questions about the employment status, qualifications, experience and customer feedback of an instructor before they are happy whoever they are allocated? I suspect that the vast majority of clients will simply visit the ski school office and say what kind of lesson(s) they want without thinking about how good the instructor will be; a smaller number will ask for an instructor by name because of personal recommendation or they have been taught by them previously; and a smaller number again will ask some relevant questions to try to match their needs with the instructor's ability/aptitude. I therefore think that for a very large proportion of ski school clients questions about the characteristics of individual instructors just aren't a part of their thinking - they will assume that whatever instructor they are allocated will be "good". So for me the most important criterion is whether the ski school maintains a high standard of competence amongst its instructors, regardless of whether they are full-time, part-time, etc.

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You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

rob@rar, I did almost exactly that (in reverse) when I first learnt to ski. I wandered into the ski school office and told the private lesson desk I wanted an instructor who could teach well not just ski well as I don't learn by copying. Bear in mind that at this point we knew I was a super klutz (like unco enough to be the butt of all jokes etc) but not that I had a disability. The ski school had the sense to place me with a ski instructor who specialised in teaching disabled skiers - especially blind skiers. (Blind skiers do not really copy!) It was this instructor that spotted the pattern in my dodgy movements and sent me for assessment.

A snowHead

Where I am, it works very well for privates. It works very well with our SuperGroups program (max of 3 clients). With 3, it is entirely possible to do all the different learning styles for the 3 diverse learners (I've had to do that quite a few times).

However in a group of 8, that's more difficult, however, group lessons are dirt cheap, and I guess you get what you pay for at the end of the day. But if there is a special request made at the time of booking (nervous, visual learner etc.) we'll always try to accommodate.

This is where the role of the Supervisor earns their money at WB. They specifically aim to create a good match.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

little tiger, I'm sure that's sensible, just as much as I'm sure you're not a typical client Smile

veeeight, have to say that for a large part of my skiing 'career' group lessons were very expensive for me, and after a couple of hopeless experiences I decided they simply weren't good value for money. Private lessons were considerably more than my budget would allow, so I abandoned ski school and spent a decade perfecting my bad habits Sad

I'd guess that experience is not untypical?

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rob@rar, Can't speak for Euro ski school pricing, but at WB your full day private is CAN$599 and your full day group is CAN$69 off peak. (SuperGroups full day is CAN$161 off peak)

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slikedges, at home I always check what the ski school computer has to say about a potential instructor - even when they come recommended to me. The computer lists if they have disabled training and what other specialities they may have. We know I often prefer those with some race background and also some disabled training...

While doing this I also get some feedback from the private lesson desk(ski school directors wife) who will tell me who they are like(other instructors). Often she will get them for me to "interview". If she cannot do that she will always ensure that they speak to one of my regular instructors before the lesson. I'm not looking forward to trying to find instructors with her now retired - she was very good at matching clients. I have skied with an instructor at another ski school and it was a disaster... not a good match at all... and that same ski school when I had a personal recommendation would not allow me to ski with an instructor. Then when he found me a suitable replacement(he was a friend of my ex) the ski school did not even tell me. As he was one of their supervisors I hope he kicked butt over that - but the impression I get is that ski school does not really care at all... It is what has kept me at the other resort.

After all it is free

little tiger, I'm not sure that many ski schools in Europe offer that kind of information.............. or service.........

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veeeight, LIvigno did a superb job of matching my request though.... I explained the situation and they found me a young guy studying some sort of human movement course stuff at university.... He is also training instructors and trying to update the kids ski school.... He was perfect - understood exactly what my disability was and the sorts of affects it would have... Did a good job and then organised me to ski with an ex-racer who in his words "You will like he talks a lot" menaing the guy was very technical.... Again a perfect match...

I did OKish in Argentiere too....
In fact my worst lesson match experience in recent times has been the Epic Ski Academy where I was placed with an instructor I had specifically stated I did not wish to ski with, and that is a North American "guest centred" effort.

Help!!

Full time "professional" vs. part time "amateur" instructors

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