"Race techniques" - what are they? application to general skiing?

A snowHead

Crossing over from Skimottaret's thread on BASI... Some really good stuff came out there about race techniques and their application (or not) to general mountain skiing (thanks to veeeight and fastman)

we heard about "feathering"/unweighted pivoting and I think there was a suggestion that for general (ie non-race) skiing this was useful in steep/narrow spots. it actually sounded not completely dissimilar to jump turns, albeit a rather more subtle move.

so does anyone want to elaborate on this or talk about other techniques primarly used in racing and whether they have a useful crossover into non-race skiing?

A snowHead

Put quite simply, 'Race techniques' are not necessarily just for racing. Racers seek to ski in the most efficient manner for their speed and line. I would venture that the way a racer skis will just be more efficient (albeit that the top racers are exceptionally fit and strong) than your average skier.

This should be a goal of all skiers. The more efficient you are, the less energy you will use in a given descent.

Sure, the top racers are much stronger and fitter than your average skier but the same principle apply. In fact, a young kid learning to ski/race will work on efficient and strong technique which will stand them in good stead whether they go on to race or just ski recreationally.

Feathering is a much more subtle and efficient move than jump turns.

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I started race training at our local dry-slope just over two years ago, and am just coming to the end of my second summer race season (just under 2 dozen races completed, 5 more this year). I started as a moderately competent recreational skier - comfortable on blacks, mostly skied off-piste up to 40 degree slopes, not really up to couloirs - but with some fairly major technical flaws. What has the race training improved? Just about everything. At this basic level, very little of what I've learned would be specific "race technique", other than things like course assessment and line selection to take out poles with your shins - less than advisable with natural obstacles in free-skiing. What trying to make the next turn does though is force you to do things more correctly that you would be able to get away with in free-skiing. So what specific areas have the improvements been in?

Pressure Control
Better sensitivity to what the ski is actually doing when in contact with the ground
Managing pressure in later part of turn to avoid ski breaking away
Control of centre of pressure through start, mid and end of turn for most effective use of the ski
Better adjustments of weighting between inner and outer skis
"Early pressure" - getting the ski to bend and start working at the 1 o'clock position in the turn rather than just 3 o'clock.

Edge control
Comfort with much greater edge angles, allowed for by better inner/outer ski weight adjustment.
Edging through movements at ankles and knees rather than just hips

Body movements
Greatly improved upper/lower body separation
Greatly improved separation between inner/outer leg movements
Much greater range of leg extension/retraction

Balance/Reactions
Improved ability to adjust balance fore/aft through the turn
Better lateral balance (greatly improved ability to ski on one ski - dead useful on narrow rocky tracks)
Much better recovery reflexes - and ability to actively ski through and out of recovery positions rather than brake, recover, then resume skiing.

Mental awareness
With better balance and general muscle memories can spend more time considering what's going on 15-50 metres ahead rather than just the next 10.

Currency
Not specifically related to race-training per se, but as I now ski on average about twice a week every week of the year, muscles and reactions remain ski-fit all year around and there's little of the "oh-poo-poo" moments in the first day or so of a holiday and much less tiredness as the week progresses - although there is a bit of time required to adjust to the properties (slipperyness, grip, regularity) of the different surfaces

So all that is basic stuff that a good skier will be doing - just raised to a higher level than what I had to do as a moderately reasonable free-skier. All of the above are of course WIP, and there will be more stuff coming up before too long, particularly related to the more steered elements of turns - such as the pivots that kicked off this thread. Two years ago I doubt I would have been able to get through a slalom course (at least without a couple of stops to realign the skis for the next turn). Last year I was completing courses probably about 30+% slower than the regional winners and >40% slower than national. Now on occasion I can get to about 12% of regional winners' times and maybe 20-25% of national. So plenty of improvements still to make - although it starts getting a lot tougher from here on in.

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I agree with Georgio, (who, if I'm right to think that I've seen him ski a few times, knows what he's talking about): nothing that racers do would be out of place in any recreational skier's skill set, they just use those skills at a higher level. On the few occasions I've skied gates I had no subtle control, no sensitivity, no ability to make fine adjustments necessary to minimise loss of speed (as well as being grossly unfit, dropping the limited technique I do have, taking the wrong line through gates, ending up on the next door course, etc, Embarassed

). Skiing gates is terrific discipline for learning fundamental ski skills, without having to do something entirely different from any other type of skiing you do.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

rob@rar, Georgio, Yes - exactly. I wonder (I'll get in trouble here) if the people who think it's a special technique are lacking the same, and therefore think it's different??

I see no reason why techniques you've learnt on the racecourse can't be successfully employed off piste, in bumps and everywhere else.

Feathering the edges - subtle stuff, but hardly exclusively race-oriented I would think. All these techniques can be brought out of the race course and used in everyday skiing. It just tends to be people with enough interest and committment to skiing and improving who bother to do race training and learn them. Most others are likeFastman's 'One trick poinies'.

brian

What does feathering the edges mean ?

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I think that's one of the reasons why the Atomic Dave Murray Ski Camps in Whistler are so good.
You spend the morning in the gates working on technique (some days slalom, some days GS, some days exercises on the greens and blues, at the end of the day downhill! Shocked

), then tend to head off to the rest of the mountain to apply the same technique that worked in the gates to a tight chute, or some bumps, or...

After all it is free

Should I mention ankles at this point? Laughing

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veeeight, sure just do not mention pronation or punching boots for ankle movement Twisted Evil

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brian, In a racecourse, if you engage the edges too hard, too quickly you will effectively dig into the snow and slow down. thus if you either have to pivot, or have skidded or whatever you need to come back onto your edges very gradually. Janica Kosterlich was brilliant at it. Of course you can apply it anywhere (see slikedge's post in the other thread. Very Happy

I'm not sure there are any racing skills not used in some form in recreational skiing. It seems to me more a question of accuracy and magnitude, the result of a difference in emphasis. It seems to me most holiday skiers seem to tend towards effortless skiing, whilst at the other end a racer's goal is the greatest possible speed and still stay on track. Effortless skiing is about balance, accuracy and economy. This requires good fundamentals. Racing is about more balance, more accuracy and lots of appropriately directed power. This requires good fundamentals and good fitness too.

easiski, that's right, getting back on the edges deftly and progressively is quite a skill requiring an ever finer touch and sensitive feel the harder the snow, the steeper the slope and the tighter the turn, just as useful off a course as on one! I'm a rank beginner.

You know it makes sense.

GrahamN, God, I hope it has the same effect on me. Can't wait to try it all out Shocked

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Interesting responses so far. I guess the inspiration for the thread is the comment which keeps popping up about Bode Miller not having perfect technique. In the BASI thread, his lock and load technique was cited, but this seems just to be a variation of feathering? Or am I missing something here.

I'd always felt that racing was good for your technique, no ifs no buts (not that I have done much - but it has found me out big time when I have!). Sounds like this assumption is probably right so long as I don't exclusively race, not that that is EVER going to happen wink

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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It bemuses me that Bode Miller is referenced so often in snowHeads' discussions on the merits of race training for instructors or recreational skiers. It would be nice if I had Bode's skills in order to decide whether to use or not his technique and tactics! As it is, none of us will have his level of skills; the timed tests for instructors do not require anything near Bode's standard of skiing; and recreational skiers like me don't even understand what Bode does nevermind be able to emulate him!

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veeeight, that's a very helpful explanation. Sounds like the sort of moves Bode pulls off also require a combination of feel and strength that not many of us can aspire to!

And please do mention ankles if you like. I am always slightly bemused when people try to say ankles don't come into it because they're locked in the boot. A bit of an ankle roll can make all the difference in my experience but maybe I should do my boots up tighter

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rob@rar, I also find it astonishing (and disappointing) that so many recreational skiers aparently fail to realise that to achieve Bode's level of success he must have very excellent basic technique. However he is the exception to every rule, and should definitely not be taken as an example by anyone, ever (IMO).

Arno, No one has said that on Snowheads for a while! Very Happy

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i had a lesson from an ex downhiller and an excercise he had me do was to drive the uphill shoulder forward and literally try to touch the inner ski tip with my hand. Very hard to do especially at the speeds we were moving at. I have to say i am not sure what this was intended to help other than getting weight forward and simulating entering a gate. any ideas?

He also was very scathing of "BASI arms" in that your arms should be free to move and wave around to assist in you balance. His analogy was like a tight rope walker or gynmast, if they get out of position the arms get them back. We did lots of moving around of the balance point and trying to get my chin more forward over the skis...

After all it is free

Arno, easiski, has anyone actually ever said that ankles don't come into it? It's just a misquote you're buying into isn't it?

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skimottaret, Well, I do a similar thing. It helps to get the upper body in the right position and keep it there during the turn and into the next turn. At all times the inside hand should go round the corner first. It was especially noticeable I thought in Are at the end of last season in the Super Gs. Whenever they got into trouble (which was lots on that course), the ones who got the inside hand, arm and shoulder forward stabilised themselves and those that didn't .... In the way I do it the idea is to push the hand forward hard enough to drag the shoulder with it. (This for lower level skiers).

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skimottaret, I should think it would - this exercise works on so many levels I don't understand why everyone doesn't do it all the time! (Probably not in any manuals though).

You know it makes sense.

easiski, can we redsecscribe the exercise please...

Uphill never works for me - although I can translate if I know what phase of the turn we are talking about... but uphill is outside at start of turn and inside at end of turn and no hand at apex... so are we talking inside or outside hand reaching for inside ski? and WHEN? or do we swap hands??? or?????? Confused

uphill sucks as a description unless I am traversing

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

little tiger, Basically (it's very simple) the inside hand/arm/shoulder on the new turn is advanced and kept advanced (in whatever position is applicable for that particular person's problem and standard) throughout the turn. I agree that talking about uphill/downhill is normally no longer applicable after you start to link turns.

A snowHead

easiski, ah so this is related to the rotation of pelvis in ILE as you start to flex the old outside leg... ie inside hip driving forward...???

A snowHead

little tiger, Yes - but all those techie terms confuse me!! Embarassed

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, for me they are not "techie"....

When I learnt to ski I was taught the right words... and have used them ever since.... Just like if you teach a small child silly euphemisms for everyday things they end up having to relearn the right words later - so in skiing if the skier aspires to be a high level skier or wants to read or travel to new places... my instructors always told me the right words at least once - as my memory is good it was easy to remember...

I'm sure it would be easier for a small child to develop a language skill based mostly on oooo and mmmmm sounds.... but how well would they communicate with the rest of the world?

pelvis and rotation are plain English words with same meaning in skiing.... inside and outside ditto.... (old)inside leg extension is the FIRST move made in that type of transition and so fairly self descriptive.... what words should I use? I don't think one of those words is not in an English dictionary...

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little tiger, Well, my 'business' is words and yet I found this

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Hurtle, which word of these four "inside hip driving forward" do you not understand?

I was not giving instructions but asking a question of a professional... and those 4 words describe the movement I was describing.... yet they were labelled "techie" ... they are no more techie than "give way to the right" or any other short description of a movement sequence etc... when instructing a longer description may be required to give the student understanding... but there is no reason not to use the correct names... unless you are teaching 5 year olds...

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little tiger, it's not the words, it's the way in which they're strung together - plus the acronym, of course. But you're welcome to your view.

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little tiger, It's not that bit! rotation of pelvis in ILE as you start to flex the old outside leg is the bit I was referring to. Driving the inside hip forwards is much simpler. Both your phrases. I know that you relate well to the more precise scientific terms, but my experience suggests that most people don't.

ILE was discussed at some length on snowheads before, but no doubt many either didn't read it or were somewhat confused. In case anyone's in any doubt it stands for inside leg extension and means that as you change from one turn to another you begin the movement by extending your old inside leg, which produces a sort of toppling effect into the new turn (not as scary as it sounds). It requires a certain amount of speed and expertise though to pull off. I think it is one of fastman's expressions.

After all it is free

easiski,

brian

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"Race techniques" - what are they? application to general skiing?

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