 Poster: A snowHead
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OK picking up on this anyone care to describe what this/feels like is in simple terms. I reckon I'd have a pretty good feel for what it is on a snowboard but then I've got better "feel" with my toes there. Difference between hard edging and "soft" edging?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, However you can feather the edges in all sorts of situations, not just after a retraction pivot. The action of moving onto the edges and progressively taking more edge can be used almost anywhere and almost any time in almost any situation. Veeeight will now be along to say you can't or shouldn't do it in very deep snow - but I don't see why not!
fatbob, It does require a great deal of finesse and feeling to engage your edges gradually. Lots of sideslip practice and various exercises of that sort can help. Skid to stop, braquage ....
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So easier to learn on wider skis where you have less leverage and therefore a greater range of motion in which to "feather"?
Not sure what the value of really fine control would be in sierra cement or elephant snot. How does it work in mid summer glacier slush?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, If you can only be either on or off your edges, you're obviously in trouble in difficult snow. You may need to angle your skis (same thing) to any sort of degree and therefore it's the same movement. Not sure about fatter skis - never really thought about it being as I ski most of the time on slalom skis. 
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| fatbob wrote: |
| So easier to learn on wider skis where you have less leverage and therefore a greater range of motion in which to "feather"? |
Also easier to learn on torsionally (-slightly-) softer skis, where the entire ski will not automatically follow the edge trench carved by a strongly engaged tip in spite of variations in skier tipping input.
Also easier to learn with less underbinding lift.
Edit: Also easier to learn with a balanced stance, with all the bootfitting and mounting point fiddling that implies.
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Not sure what the value of really fine control would be in sierra cement or elephant snot. How does it work in mid summer glacier slush? |
Dunno about glacier slush. Works nicely in the other stuff, particularly in compensation for random surface input to the ski.
If I'm not too tired to pay enough attention, I think of it as choosing a particular flow to go with as opposed to smashing my way through.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| you know that joint I am assured I cannot move in a ski boot ;) :-P So I must have it all wrong! :twisted: |
The more I think about that, the more I believe anklers have relatively wider feet and heels; the rest perhaps more subtle hips.
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Glacier slush comes under the heading of heavy snow IMO. We didn't have much of it this year though. 
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| easiski wrote: |
| fatbob, If you can only be either on or off your edges, you're obviously in trouble in difficult snow. |
"Detuning" would make it all easier, back in the day of such things.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Oh, well. Easy hypothesis come, . . .
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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comprex, I also have the q-angle of an average male so the physio tells me....  I'm just not built for theories to hold
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| comprex wrote: |
| "Detuning" would make it all easier, back in the day of such things. |
As you're aware, a tad more base bevel on the contact areas will do the trick as it allows the edge to gently engage but still leaves a sharp full length side edge for when it does hook up.
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You know it makes sense.
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Which reminds me, I haven't done a full-length progressive bevel tune since about 1999. Lesse, what skis can I ruin around here practicing?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm not sure that all the tuning, ski width or whatever in the world will really help. subtelty is what makes the difference and that means very good basic stance and technique. There is no quick fix - if at first you don't succeed, try, try and try again!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just in case people reading this thread are still a bit fuzzy about what "FEATHERING" is, I'll inject my explanation into the mix.
Imagine performing a between turns pivot (a twist of the skis while they're unweighted between turns, so that they point more down the hill) at the start of your new turn. Because you've pivoted while your skis are unweighted, you will not change the direction your body is traveling,,, you'll only change the direction your skis are pointing. The result is your body is traveling one direction (across the hill), while your skis are pointing a different direction (down the hill). When you come back down, and the skis re-engage with the snow, a conflict will exist. The skis will be both trying to slide sideways (via the momentum of the direction your body is traveling), and will also be trying to follow a path dictated by their sidecut (the direction they're facing). Our goal in feathering is to try to resolve that conflict in the favor of the sidecut as quickly and smoothly as possible, allowing the skis (and body) to begin traveling the direction we desired them to when we executed our pivot.
The skill of feathering is a difficult one to teach. It involves the ability to come back down on the skis, post pivot, lightly,,, requires a very fine feel of the edges,,, the ability to fine tune in terms of both pressure and edge angle in a spontaneous and rapid progression that takes the skier from sliding sideways to carving forward in a very smooth and rapid manner,,, and to stay in balance through the entire process. My feeling is it's an ability born more from the refinement of the entire family of fundamental skiing skills, than from direct practicing of feathering. So many of the fundamental skills are involved in performing feathering well, and if they aren't part of the skiers arsenal of skills, high quality feathering will always be a difficult task.
Here's a good montage of a mega Bode pivot/feather sequence:
http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2004/slides/bode-pc-gs-1.html
- Second last image shows him mid pivot. Skis are unweighted, skis are pointed down the slope, body is still traveling across the slope. The conflict exists.
- Last image shows the conflict in the midst of being resolved, via feathering. Skis have reconnected with the snow, and he's in the process of going form sliding sideways to carving forward.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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FFS.... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FastMan, I think the semantic has lost me - if Bode is "feathering" in those last 3 images it doesn't look to me to be about fine pressure control though obviously he will be on the right amount of edge at 0.
At -1 looks like he is beginning to engage his edges (well he actually has his skis on the snow for starters)
-2 He is actually airborne it apears to me - a great image which shows that not all parts of a turn need be elegant (of course he gets efficiency out of that while I don't  )
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There are some good video clips on the CSCF World 2007 DVD that show this. I don't know whether they are on youtube.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FastMan, I assume he goes to our left of the red gate ? If so he looks as if he's going to be traveling sideways for about a meter and won't pick up the carve until he's level with or past the gate ?
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FastMan, You seem to be thinking/saying ( as did little tiger) only about pivot and then feather. for my money you can feather the edges (if this is the phrase you want to use) anytime you go from a flat ski to an edged ski OR THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I would be more inclined to call the move progressive edging/releasing ... but then I do like to KISS!!!
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fatbob, I hear you. It looks like high energy chaos. But think about it. He's going close 70-80 kph, and is trying to re-engage his skis while they're pointing 90 degrees to the direction he's traveling,,, and must do it in such a manner that he dumps very little speed, and his carve initiates at a crucially precise moment and place. The fine control comes in making the precision happen at those extreme speeds, icy slopes, and big pivots.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| FastMan, I assume he goes to our left of the red gate ? If so he looks as if he's going to be traveling sideways for about a meter and won't pick up the carve until he's level with or past the gate ? |
Yes, looking up the slope he goes to the left of the gate. From his perspective, the right. Keep in mind the speed he's going. It takes a bit of space for the feathering into a carve to take place. Some drift will be part of the mix. Is this more than absolutely necessary? Perhaps,,, I can't say for sure. Each turn will be different. The more pivot, and the more speed, and the less skill of the skier, the more drift during feathering will be required. And,,, timing of the pivot could be a tad off, in which case fine control of the feathering process can compensate and still result in a well placed carve initiation. Or,,, he may be purposely dumping speed. This can happen when the mind feels the speed and line coming in is beyond that which can be handled. Yes, even racers have to check speed on occasion. That too can be accomplished within the feathering process for the skilled skier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FAQ
So I must have it all wrong! 
