 Poster: A snowHead
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Euan gave those attending his talk at the EoSB a summer assignment: figuring out the meaning of
"Hips for power, knees for strengh, ankles for accuracy"
any thoughts?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ssh wrote: |
Euan gave those attending his talk at the EoSB a summer assignment: figuring out the meaning of
"Hips for power, knees for strengh, ankles for accuracy"
any thoughts? |
The hips and ankles part makes sense to me and I think angulation at my hips is the main source of power through my turns, with ankles used to 'fine-tune' things. But I'm not certain about the knees part? I flex too much at the knees, especially when going quickly, so that part of my body is a source of 'non-strength' for me rather than strength. How does the Austrian ski team (which I think this quote comes from) differentiate between power and strength?
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Personally, I think knees for power. OK pure carving would imply you already have a straight outside leg and so no opportunity to straighten legs any further, but if you have some flex still then you can drive the skis by pushing against them by extending the legs - so causing the skis to accelerate, no? Or of course you change direction by relaxing outside leg, which then becomes new inside leg and you accelerate theskis by rapidly straightening the new outside leg, thus driving it into through the turn. Had a couple of glasses of Sauvignon though, but sure we've been here before. Basically, at any tie through the turn, if you still have some flex in your legs you can accelerate by extending them against the skis, almost like pushing away from the skis during the turn to make them go faster.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Knee angulation, whilst much rubbished by the ignorant, is possibly one of the most important moves when used in conjunction with shaped skis.
Edge in this order - ankles, knees, hips.
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| veeeight wrote: |
Edge in this order - ankles, knees, hips. |
veeeight
that must be a CSCF thing yes?
because IIRC I was told that by my instructor
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That mantra makes perfect sense to me. Your main body suspension is at the knees, so stronger knees mean you can respond better to variations in the terrain - lumps, bumps, corrections due to variable snow texture/incompetence  etc.. Your strongest leg muscles are your hamstrings, which principally work against your hips, so this is where you can push hardest to generate power out of turns, jumps etc. Your ankles have the finest movements associated with them, and are most directly connected to your skis, so are best for fine tuning what the skis are doing. They also have important movements in several directions - fore-aft, tilt and twist - so can make a huge variation in the effect of what the rest of the leg is doing.
This was brought home to me most obviously in yesterday's training where I was having troubles getting around one particular marker tight enough. This was a farily wide sweeping turn, whereas I was getting around some tighter but straighter turns easily. I was angulating at hips, steering with knees etc but the skis were just not going around the corner without a big slide - and so missing the next corner. Eventually I realised I was keeping my ankles way too floppy in that big turn, so they were allowing all the good work from the rest of the body to be wasted - whereas the shorter turns had to be done from the ankles and knees only as there was less time between changes of direction. "Activate" (i.e. strengthen, but don't let it become stiff and immobile) the ankle joint and the edge angles and grip improved radically, the ski steered where I expected it and the corner became easy (provided I remembered not to take too direct a line at it  ).
| petemillis wrote: |
| OK pure carving would imply you already have a straight outside leg |
Sorry, fundamentally disagree with that. Whether you are carving or not has nothing to do with whether your leg is straight. I would contend that the only point at which you should have a straight leg in a carved turn is at its exact apex, to give you the maximum range of movement to absorb the pressure build up in its second half - and even there you probably want to keep a small amount of extension in reserve to accommodate any variations (such as ruts) in the snow. In general your joints should be in their mid range of movement as a) the associated muscles are then at their strongest and b) you have the maximum ability to move in any direction from that "neutral" position.
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GrahamN,
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petemillis wrote:
OK pure carving would imply you already have a straight outside leg
Sorry, fundamentally disagree with that. Whether you are carving or not has nothing to do with whether your leg is straight. I would contend that the only point at which you should have a straight leg in a carved turn is at its exact apex, to give you the maximum range of movement to absorb the pressure build up in its second half - and even there you probably want to keep a small amount of extension in reserve to accommodate any variations (such as ruts) in the snow. In general your joints should be in their mid range of movement as a) the associated muscles are then at their strongest and b) you have the maximum ability to move in any direction from that "neutral" position. |
I disagree with it too now it's the morning. What I tried to say was (and it'll come out wrong again) is that it's sort of implied that the outside leg is fully extended and gives people the impression that this is the case - just from looking at the comments that people make on clips of video ("outside leg not straight enough" and so on). If this what people think is most important, then it doesn't leave any room for further extension to power through the turn. See, said it wrong again _I'll revisit this later. The whole dynanicism (made up word?) of the legs often seems to be lost in the way skiing is described these days....
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Sounds like reasonably good sense as a mantra but aren't you forgetting something?
..................Its too simple for people to spend years analysing and arguing over on ski forums
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| Quote: |
veeeight
that must be a CSCF thing yes?
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Yes.... but... it's the foundation of all ski racing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I am always skeptical about the mechanical, as opposed to the psychological, role of the ankle in tipping the ski. If you can fine-tune your edge angle using your ankles, then surely your boots don't fit very well!
But I do concede that the tension, created by trying to "tip" the ankle within the confines of a stiff ski boot, may play a role in aiding feedback and balance for other areas of the body.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
| I am always skeptical about the mechanical, as opposed to the psychological, role of the ankle in tipping the ski. |
I think that's how it works for me. It's a great mental trigger for me (thanks to a tip from veeeight earlier this season), but I don't believe that my ankles are physically adding much to my angulation. But thinking about it has made a big difference to my awareness as I go around curves.
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Martin Bell, I tried to say something related here:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=610229#610229
| comprex wrote: |
| ssh wrote: |
| I also tend to feel the response of the skis when I feel certain sensations, and move towards those sensations that tend to have the ski do what I want it to do. |
Makes perfect sense.
Would the |hips power knees strength ankles accuracy| mantra thus work better as a map of body sensations to be felt than as a list of buttons to push for an assembly line result? |
However, on the mechanical front, it does seem to break away from the classical mantra of better skier->tighter boot. Guess it depends on the relative tightness of the ankle area to the upper cuff and lower shin area. [ heel, malleolus, upper cuff ] pick two to make tight.
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You know it makes sense.
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Stiff ski boot, yes, a ski boot with no room to allow your foot (and therefore your ankle to roll), no.
Many of the WC guys n gals now have specific performance punches in their boots to allow room for the malleolus and navicular to move in their boots in order to let the ankle roll, and foot pronate in order to (1) roll over onto the edge initially and (2) to fine tune and feather throughout the turn.
It's very clear, once your eye is tuned into this, on how certain people are "blocked" in edging, if you totally block out the ankle, you have to move to the next available joints (knees, hips) in order to get the ski on edge.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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veeeight,
thank goodness someone is standing up for feet! 
btw you may want to have a look at the stuff here
http://forums.modernskiracing.com
lots of biomechanical stuff....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| Your main body suspension is at the knees, so stronger knees mean you can respond better to variations in the terrain - lumps, bumps, corrections due to variable snow texture/incompetence Wink etc.. Your strongest leg muscles are your hamstrings, which principally work against your hips, so this is where you can push hardest to generate power out of turns, jumps etc. Your ankles have the finest movements associated with them, and are most directly connected to your skis, so are best for fine tuning what the skis are doing. They also have important movements in several directions - fore-aft, tilt and twist - so can make a huge variation in the effect of what the rest of the leg is doing. |
The way I see it, they are -all- suspension.
Interesting that most of the posts, saving yours, have been focused on open-loop command input as opposed to voluntary or involuntary feedback and stabilisation.
Ankles-> accuracy could also be taken as 'they are the best stabilising focus'
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oops, I seem to have surfed onto Epicski by mistake...sorry, I'll just slip out quietly at the back...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Murdoch, we'll have none of that "I'll just slip out quietly" around here - put it away man!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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petemillis, the "quietly slipping out" bit isn't usually what gets me into trouble...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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(the ankles are the primary control as in steering a car) comprex, correct!
GrahamN, The hamstrings are not your strongest leg muscles and they do not have any part to play with your hips! In other words you are talking a load a codswallop!
People like you should refrain from giving ill advice about ski specific fitness, because it is clear that you are not trained nor qualified to entrust such important knowledge onto unsuspecting and gullible skiers.
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Scarlet Pimpernel, harsh! As an unsuspecting and gullible skier I have taken advice from GrahamN, before and would trust what he has to say. His standard is in the top 5 per cent of people I have skiied with.
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Scarlet Pimpernel, If only instructors were allowed to debate in these pages they would be pretty boring. The hamstrings are powerful muscles and have actions at the hip joint though. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
I am always skeptical about the mechanical, as opposed to the psychological, role of the ankle in tipping the ski. If you can fine-tune your edge angle using your ankles, then surely your boots don't fit very well!
But I do concede that the tension, created by trying to "tip" the ankle within the confines of a stiff ski boot, may play a role in aiding feedback and balance for other areas of the body. |
I'm sure this is right. If boots fit well at the cuff then any lateral movement whether at ankle or forefoot inside of the laterally rigid boot will not be directly transferred to the outside of the boot. If at the cuff the boots are looser laterally but at the ankle and forefoot the boots are quite tight, movement of the latter will translate more directly into movement of the outside of the boot.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hmmm. Ever wondered how an ice skate holds on ice? How a skater can carve clean lines in the ice, and yet, no stiff ski boots........
No? Oh well.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| As for open-loop versus feedback and stabilisation - I spend most of my time skiing in variable snow conditions, so wouldn't you then think that reactions and response to feedback is pretty key to being able to maintain your control in the presence of continually variable input from the snow? |
Yes. Precisely why I pointed that out, so it doesn't get taken for granted.
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight, either it's a case of grandma, suck, fill in according to personal preferences, or you're still learning this "teaching" thing
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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slikedges,
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| I'm sure this is right. If boots fit well at the cuff then any lateral movement whether at ankle or forefoot inside of the laterally rigid boot will not be directly transferred to the outside of the boot. |
Dunno what the forefoot's doing, I'll just say 'heel'. One needs at least two points of adequate motion-stop tightness along the shin-ankle-heel line otherwise the boot rotates around the single fixed point. Without insane tension at the cuff that would block calf muscle motion and might peel the skin off, the heel is the only stop to boot motion -along- the shin-ankle-heel line.
If the shin-ankle-heel line is not aligned with the shin to ground line then there is a roll-plane moment.
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Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, since we are doing generalisations, are you perchance a member of the SCGB?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, not sure where you're headed with that, but if it's a side-stab at SCGB members, you'll find rather a lot on here. Thanks but I think I'll leave this where you came in:
comprex,
I agree, my example is a simplistic logical extreme. However, even in reality, inside of a well fitting ski boot, the scope for movement in the roll-plane (lateral movement or ankle)) is tiny precisely because of heel retention and cuff tightness, as it would be in the tipping-plane (ankle flexion/extension) were it not for the hinge in the boot allowing ankle flexion (notwithstanding that the latter is a much more powerful movement!).
If we take a step back here, what we are asking to happen in an ankle roll is for the perpendicular from the boot-ski interface to move to a different angle to the shin in the roll-plane. For this to happen the line of the boot itself must obviously be able to move to a different angle to the shin in the roll-plane (unless we're able to laterally flex the boot!). As you correctly stated this can be achieved with tight heel loose cuff or with loose heel tight cuff. However with tight heel tight cuff I don't think it's going to be significant. This is partly due to the boot being stiff and partly due to there not being the range or strength of movement anatomically at that level. Try standing with your knees locked straight and hips/pelvis held rigidly - then try lifting both left or right edges of the soles of your boots without any movement at hip joints laterally.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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slikedges there is an additional degree of freedom: a practically tight cuff still allows movement along the shin, and needs to be modeled as a sliding ball joint. Pronation of the ankle therefore allows the shin to drop into the boot. This changes the effective angle of the boot sole to the hip.
I'll allow you that -lifting- is nigh impossible, however, allowing the shin to sink into the boot and gravity to roll onto edge is quite possible. Which sort of brings us back to the mantra at the top of the thread. The ankle can't practically lift, the hip and knee can.
If you were to finesse part of your point (as I understand it), that ski equipment evolution seems to tax anatomically disadvantaged muscles in favor of less work of far larger and more capable muscles, then I fully agree (with specific reference to prior threads on very small steering muscles at the top of the femur, normally not specifically trained by recreational skiers). It seems a dead end of diminishing returns and increasing injuries. Far better to work on more hip extension.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| comprex wrote: |
| slikedges there is an additional degree of freedom: a practically tight cuff still allows movement along the shin, and needs to be modeled as a sliding ball joint. Pronation of the ankle therefore allows the shin to drop into the boot. This changes the effective angle of the boot sole to the hip. I'll allow you that -lifting- is nigh impossible, however, allowing the shin to sink into the boot and gravity to roll onto edge is quite possible. Which sort of brings us back to the mantra at the top of the thread. |
I admit I hadn't thought of that - still haven't thought about it (doesn't heel retention stop the heel from rising too much?) - will do so on drive home this pm.
| comprex wrote: |
| If you were to finesse part of your point (as I understand it), that ski equipment evolution seems to tax anatomically disadvantaged muscles in favor of less work of far larger and more capable muscles, then I fully agree (with specific reference to prior threads on very small steering muscles at the top of the femur, normally not specifically trained by recreational skiers). It seems a dead end of diminishing returns and increasing injuries. Far better to work on more hip extension. |
I do tend towards thinking this as well but all I wanted to do originally was just to agree with what martin bell said about the thought of the ankles and foot edges, the tension in the muscles as we try to do this, the awareness of what is being felt through the feet, being perhaps more important than any movement of "ankle roll" itself. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| slikedges wrote: |
I admit I hadn't thought of that - still haven't thought about it (doesn't heel retention stop the heel from rising too much?) - will do so on drive home this pm.
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Sorry to leave this so long.
I merely refer to the heel rotating in its pocket without lift as such. I don't think it can be stopped from rotating by the boot without restriction at the ankle.
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comprex, I'm sure you're right - dropping in on pronation could certainly produce loosening at the ankle and add to the movement possible - it shouldn't add to lateral movement at the cuff though, and indeed very little dropping in could be expected as it makes the cuff tighter, however the net result could well be more lateral movement at the ankle. I'd still contend though that even together with lateral movement that cannot be eliminated at the cuff and ankle, plus any lateral movement a racer's boot may or may not now allow, the movement is too small to contribute greatly in and of itself.
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slikedges, The only way that I can think of that rolling the ankles can have an effect on edging is to rotate the lower leg relative to the knee.
This is how the FootFoundation system of alignment adjustment that CEM uses works.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, Very technical ( and all good stuff) In a very simple pattern start with the lower leg joint ( ankles) to move in to the new turn, followed by the knee and finally hip ( hip for power) Ankle, knee, hip. Upper body falls inside the outer leg for max power and strenght ( speed ad powerful edging
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rjs, not sure exactly what you mean. Imho rolling the "ankles" even inside of a well-fitting ski boot does have some small but significant effect on the edge angle, probably of greatest help when starting a turn - it's just never of itself a way of getting much edge.
elbrus, I certainly agree it's important mentally to try to follow that sequence.
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