France rules, but are the French getting it right?

A snowHead

The muscular power of the French ski industry shows no sign of abating. This article in today's Independent newspaper points out that 36.5% of British skiers chose France last year though, in a way, this seems a surprisingly low percentage (I'd hazard a guess that the percentage of snowHeads skiing France is higher).

As Stephen Wood states, the odds are stacked in favour of the country: easy access from the UK, the exclusivity of the rail and snowtrain connections, masses of high resorts, modern lifts and huge networks of great skiing. But my most recent experience in Val d'Isere made me feel a bit like a commuter in a vast machine-dominated theme park.

Is France in danger of over-exploiting its magic? Will all French ski mountains be consumed by mega business?

A snowHead

As long as the French can resist the encroachment of the Intrawests of this world, then there will still be room for the smaller more characterful resorts. I'm still angry that Intrawest chopped down hundreds of old pines, which take hundreds of years to grow to a decent size to facilitate the development of Arc 1950. I always think of places like Val D'espair and Meribel as being more English than French, give me Tignes or Courchevel any day. Fortunately there are still smaller resorts that co-exist alongside the mega stations that can offer visitors a glimpse of real life. Places like La Rosiere, Nancroix, Vaujany and others which are still very much working communities. I would have included Ste Foy but you have to differentiate between the original village and the ski-station which is now part of the Home Counties.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The biggest threat is over-confidence, along with an inability to understand - or take seriously - the mysterious notion of customer satisfaction.

Exactly the same thing happened to their wine industry. Incapable of moving with the times, believing their position as market leaders to be unassailable, poo-pooing the innovative branding and marketing methods of the New World producers, they're finally waking up to the fact that they've lost a large chunk of their customer base and are now considering the possibility that they may have gone wrong somewhere.

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I'm not sure I agree with that, PG. The French are sitting on ski landscapes which no one else can compete with. A very different natural advantage to their vineyards, which are no longer exclusive.

Isn't it, as David@traxvax essentially points out, an issue of land ownership? Collectives of local private landowners will be naturally conservative in their exploitation of skiing, but ultimately better at the long-term interests of skiing?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I've been skiing in Switzerland more, lately. Bags of character, great skiing. Will be going there again this coming season, both my skiing weeks. And travel there is really easy, thanks to the great rail/post bus liks from the airports. But I am sure that Val D'Isere will drag me back in the future. I cannot imagine a better ski area than L'Espace Killy.

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David Goldsmith, "Is France in danger of over-exploiting its magic?" I hope not. And I think the sheer number of resorts will keep it going.
If you read through snowhead posts, or go through the brochures, you would get the impression there were only about 20 - 30 ski resorts, maybe 50 at the most. But I have here a copy of "Where to Ski and Snowboard (1997 edition), and there are over 750 resorts in the Resort Index.
The resorts we know and love are I suspect not typical of ski resorts in general. I note that those who live in the alps - PG, Ise et al - have a rather different view to resorts and snow conditions than us Brits do. I remember debating with Ise on late-season conditions earlier this year. I was saying conditions were excellent, but this was based this on only a handful of well-known resorts. Ise sees a much broader picture and politely suggested I was not completely accurate.

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35% of Brit skiers visiting France these days is a bloody awful number considering the quality skiing on offer and the ease of access.
I have had many discussions with Brits who have vowed never to ski in France again as they are sick of tiny poor quality apartments, the attitude of many of the staff in restaurants, bars and hire shops AND the in resort costs. Many cite the US as being far better value w.r.t. accommodation, service and in resort costs but Austria and Italy have also been cited.
I love France but, after 20 years skiing there and now working there regularly, I know what I like, how to get it and what to expect.
There have been some improvements over the last 5 years or so but if France wants to compete with the rest of Europe and the US and retain it's 35% share of our market it must start seriously addressing the points above.

After all it is free

David Goldsmith, there are plenty of French vignerons out there who still believe their wines to be unique, peerless. The French consider their mountains to be unchallengeable. True for the time being, the infrastructure is without equal, but that doesn't mean that, in time, alternative destinations will be unable to compete, if sufficient investment is forthcoming.

The French attitude to customer service is dreadful at times. There are mountains elsewhere.

PG

Does this mean we get the best of both world by skiing in France but staying with the British there?

My 6 years experience in Chamonix confirms your last post. I can put up with the French but there is no way they can beat the Swiss or the Austrian when it come to customer services.

The Independent article is pretty accurate. I think the tour operators should start calling Tarentaise the biggest resort on earth as it is bigger than Dolomites and easier to reach.

We should have a regional Snowhead HQ there too.

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Saikee, there are alraedy a number of Snowheads outposts in the Tarentaise, our chalet in La Roseire and Flying Squirrel's bar in Plan Peisey to name but two.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

That's fine, but I think he had in mind something more like this.

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I think HG has a place in Boug too.

Reading the threads it is obvious that there are quite a number of us going there this season. I think we can use a permanent place in the forum for those guys station out there as they give us enormous of help, assistance and information.

So far we have

PG & HG in Boug St Maurice 10 minutes from Les Arc Funicular (think HG has a property but doesn't stay there all the time)
Flying squirrel has a pub in Plan Peisey near the link between La Plagne and Les Arcs (whole season?)
David@traxvax has a Chalet in La Roseire.

It is nice to know that Snowheads is so strongly represented there.

To be fair to France, I think the idea of Austrian "gemütlichkeit" is sometimes overstated. I have felt like part of a tourist conveyor-belt in Austria too. The locals are usually pretty friendly but it's not really a rustic paradise, and the hotel staff don't wear those charming Tirolean outfits because it's a genuine continuing tradition, but because the resorts are, indeed, theme parks. I am conscious that, not far beneath the surface, they want our money.

You know it makes sense.

How much of this is linked to the growth (has there been a growth?) in the number of people skiing in recent years?

Most people skiing for the first time want to go somewhere that's cheap and that they've heard of. Although they'll never get to ski more than about 10% of the area in the massive resorts they still shy away from smaller resorts or less-fashionable countries like Bulgaria. They then end up in the factory resorts but a lot don't mind the overcrowded pistes and lift queues as they don't know any better and the skiing is only part of the holiday - they're also interested in the nightlife and other activities.

As the owner of a chalet in a virtually unknown French resort I often have people on the very brink of booking who then change their mind as one of the group refuses to go somewhere that their friends at work haven't heard of. Even the more experienced skiers seem to go back to the same resort year after year.

Perhaps skiers are just creatures of habit. Would you go back to the same summer destination year after year like those septuagenarians who've been going to Skeggy since they were 21? Probably not, but I expect that most of us here have been back to a resort we've skied before rather than try somewhere different.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Ben, you're so right, the number of people I speak to who only know the mega stations and then complain at the off-hand service, lift queues, crowded pistes. The smaller resorts definitely work harder to attract and retain guests and it's an attitude that appears to be universal. My theory is that, in the smaller resorts most of the businesses are family run and everyone involved is involved in ensuring guests have a good time and want to come back. Whereas in the mega stations there are many more larger and more impersonal organisations, staff are more likey to be temporary and they have so many visitors who cares if a few are unhappy, they get lots of visitors every year.

A snowHead

Is it attitude or Altitude.

I have always been keen to ensure I get the best possible snow on my annual sking holiday. I have done this by going to the high altitude mega resorts. This thought process was past down to me by other more experienced Brit skiers and it has worked very well for me over the years.
In the last year I have discovered the delights of smaller resorts where the atmosphere is much friendlier and the skiing pretty good. I have yet to commit to a week at any of the smaller resorts and I'm not sure I could.
The reasons for this are
1. Lower altitude = less/poor snow
2. expanse & variety of terrain
3. No ski in/out
4. My ski/board buddies like big parks

I will continue to visit the smaller resorts for day trips as and when I can and hopefully I will become convinced that higher and bigger is not always better.

A snowHead

ben wright, when I raised the customer service issue initially, it was based on many years experience living and working in France on a permanent basis. The greater part of my snow time has been gained in resorts such as Allos (ask their race team's Children I trainer if he remembers Hannah Garwood's dad). I skied almost exclusively around the southern French Alps in the early years, sometimes in places a fraction of the size of the Pra-Loup/Allos domain.

Although I agree that the bigger resorts tend to have a more impersonal approach in comparison to some, the customer service problem is a thing that permeates all levels of French society, whether public services or private businesses, big and small.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

PG, out of interest, do French people also recognise/complain about the customer service problem in France? Apart from when I was a teenager just about all of my skiing has been in the large French ski domains and I've never had any serious complaint about (a lack) of customer service. Yes, it does feel a little like I'm on a conveyor belt at times, being shunted around the tourism factory, but I accept that's the penalty for the criteria that are important to me (altitude, ski-in/out, consistently good instruction, modern lift network serving a variety of terrain, etc).

Regards

Rob

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Boardski, it's not always the case that small resorts are at low altitude, La Rosiere is at 1850, Ste Foy is at 1550 and Vaujany is at a good height. Whilst I wouldn't neccesarily want to spend a week in Ste Foy it's a good location for skiing Val D'Isere and Tignes and don't forget Villaroger for Les Arcs. I've never yet found any guests who have expressed dissatisfaction at the expanse of skiing offered in the Espace San Bernard either on piste or off-piste, don't forget that we are linked to Italy and are therefore the closest French resort to heli-skiing. I've lost count of the times I've seen instructors from Val, Tignes and even Courchevel bringing their guests to La Rosiere, We also have a good board park, according to my sons. It's also no coincidence that the some of the World's top extreme skiers come from La Rosiere, Manu Gaidet is world extreme champion and Nath Fresnois was a member of the Atomic extreme team. We've also got Joel Chenal, a member of the French world cup team, ranked 5th in the GS ratings last year. So give some of the smaller resorts a try, you could be very pleasantly surprised. You'd certainly be pleased with the lift pass cost, less than £100 for a six day adult pass for France and Italy.

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PG, I didn't touch on the customer service point but my take is that it's completely hit and miss. I think that a lot of people in the French tourist industry are just complacent/lazy. In the larger resorts they know there'll be a constant stream of people coming so they don't have to try too hard and in the smaller resorts they lack ambition and are often happy to run a bar which has 5 customers a night. Who knows, perhaps this is a better way to live.

On the point raised by others about small and large resorts, it's not the case that the tour operators just use the large or high resorts. I looked at a couple of brochures this year and was a bit surprised to see them claiming that ski areas between 1200 and 2000m were "high altitude resorts" and that a total piste length of 100km was a large domain.

I think (well, of course I would) Allos/Espace Lumiere is a good example of the sort of place that gets overlooked - pistes between 1500 and 2600m, more than 200km of pistes, loads of off-piste and a season from December to April. Plus fantastic, ski-in/ski-out, chalet accomodation Very Happy

However, I certainly don't want to see it developed to the state that other resorts are - the best thing about it is that, outside the school holidays, you don't have to queue for the lifts or dodge dozens of people on the piste.

A useful way to gauge the chances of finding crowded pistes in a resort would be a piste length to number of beds in resort ratio. Obviously, factors such as popularity with beginners (who would concentrate on certain slopes) would skew the results but it's a useful rough guide.

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Discounting Serre Che, Allos when the link to Pra-Loup is open is probably my favourite place to be in the southern French Alps.

After all it is free

David@traxvax, As I said I'm ready to be convinced and will hopefully get to sample 5 or 6 smaller resorts this year. I am hope to get a weekend in La Rossier in March.
Ideally I would like to get the lads to try a multi centre trip next year, in small or large resorts, but its hard to convince them that they won't lose snow time and or sleep by doing so. The lift pass is a bug with this idea also.
Any tips on where to go to acheive this will be most welcome.

In the Savoie Bourg St Maurice would be ideal for that kind of trip, especially if you are ok with self-catering, available at much cheaper rates down in the valley. From Bourg you're only 7 minutes away from the Les Arcs slopes by funicular, then you have a drive of 30 minutes to Tignes and La Rosière, 20 minutes to Ste Foy, 30 minutes to Méribel and access to the whole of the 3 Valleys, La Plagne 20 mins.....

Less fashionable resorts? Base yourself in Gap in the southern Alps. 30 minutes to Orcières Merlette, Les Orres and Super Dévoluy, all relatively snow sure, with a selection of delightful little domains even closer - Céüse, Ancelle, Chaillol, Crévoux, Laye, Crots, Réallon when there's snow around 1400m.

Or Barcelonnette, in the Ubaye valley an hour south-east of Gap in dept 04... 10 minutes from Sauze, 20 from Supersauze (Carole Merle's resort), close to Pra-Loup (linked to Allos), Ste Anne....

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Boardski, the problem with the Southern Alps is often lack of snow, historically they only get about 25% of the total French snow-fall, so they can be a bit hit and miss, also a lot of them a low. Of the southern Alps, IMO, I think the best all-round resort is Serre Chevalier but I also like Vaujany which is a super little resort that links to Alpe D'Huez. So you get the best of that skiing area without having to stay in a French version of Basildon. It all depends what you want if you don't mind staying in a valley town and missing out on the atmosphere of a resort then you can get cheaper skiing. Bourg is nicer than Moutiers, but there are other small villages with similar links, Bride Les Bains has a gondola that connects to Meribel, it's about a 20 minute ride and you benefit from cheaper accomdation and eating, although not by much. In my experience, there's not a lot of difference in restuarant or bar prices between BSM and La Rosiere, although BSM does have a LIDL as well as Super U and Intermarche.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Never really think of Serre Che as being in the real southern Alps, it is rather on the fringes. Still it is the most Savoie-like of the southern Alps domains, no argument in terms of quality. Using Briançon as a base you have easy access to Montgenèvre and the link into Italy, plus an easy drive down to Puy St Vincent and the great little resort of Vallouise (spent a few days there two Decembers back with virtually the whole domain to myself).

Yet to see what will happen this year, but the cover is often better at the start of the winter in the southern French Alps and Pyrenees than further north. Last year conditions were better throughout the season down south. Who knows though, you pays yer money...

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PG, wrote

You know it makes sense.

Boardski, a good multi-resort trip would be the Valle d'Aosta in Italy. You could base yourself in Aosta (no more than 30-40 mins from any of the resorts, and there's a direct gondola up to Pila), or travel around - if you drive to the enxt resort from the slopes you'll be at the next well before dinner. There are about 20 resorts accessible including Cervinia, Courmayeur, La Thuile (linked to la Rossiere) and the Monte Rossa region. It also gives you the chance to do the Vallee Blanche as you can get to it from the Italian side. You'll see a good mix of resort and terrain, and there are a few snow-sure places in case the conditions are dodgy.

Getting there is easily drivable from both Geneva, Turin and Milan and there are regular buses from all three.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I've found France to be overpriced. I read in the Sunday Times this weekend that they recommend a mountain restaurant called Bel-Air in Courchevel 1650 as a reasonably priced alternative to the more expensive restaurants on the mountain. Last March, an omelette and a portion of chicken served with chips and 4 drinks cost 70 Euros. Hardly value for money when compared with other skiing destinations!! A meal for 2 in Austria was about 25 to 30 Euros and the beer in the hotel was 2 Euros for half a litre compared with 5 euros in France, and it was great being served by friendly Austrians rather than the miserable folk in France.
I also find France lacks the atmosphere of Austria or Switzerland, so if big business takes over, and prices increase further, I'll be even less likely to go back to France again.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Peter B, you can't possibly quote Courchevel as an example! You might as well say you'll never eat out in England again, because it costs a fortune to dine at the Savoy Grill!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

PG, I hear what you're saying, but feel justified in referring to my own experiences as a comparison between my 2 weeks sking last year. Remember that 1650 where I stayed is supposedly a cheaper resort, hence the reference in The Sunday Times. I thought Saalbach in Austria had skiing that was just as good as France, with a lot of other significant advantages ie cost, atmosphere, quality of accomodation.
When I asked the Inghams ski rep why the beer was so expensive, she sought to justify it on the basis that I was in the best ski resort in the world. I have skied in different resorts that were much better than Courchevel in my personal opinion.

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Peter B, To be frank the Austrian après-ski atmosphere I find a little contrived these days. Stuff put on for the tourists I find embarassing. As for costs, Courchevel is Courchevel - "cheaper" is relative. I had lunch at the Refuge in Bourg a couple of days ago. 15 euros for the menu du jour, a pleasant salad to begin with, followed by a superb dish of 'Atriaux', roast pieces of pork wrapped in ‘voilettes', a desert of 'tarte tatin', caramelised apples in a kind of upside down pudding, washed down with a quarter of a litre of an excellent house red which miraculously turned up in a half litre bottle at no extra charge. That's the reality of dining out in France!

Quality of accommodation is another issue although the emphasis is on self-catering in France, so I hope you are comparing like with like.

As for quality of skiing, well the Tarentaise has something for everyone. You must have just been unlucky, or not been in the right places at the right time!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Its a vicious circle here regarding customer service, bad driving, zero courtesy and their 'love' of us (to mention just a couple of irritations)!

Its rare when someone holds the door open for another person here, or lets a car out of a junction, no-one does it and so after a while they think why should they? "C'est mon DROIT" - it's my RIGHT, when do we use this in the english language - but in French its common-place, it's very much each looking after number 1 and sod everyone else!! We must not weaken!!! Continue to open doors for people, be charming etc - even when you have got an aggressive a**""e in front of you, and pull them up occasionally - they don't even realise they are doing it (not that they'll apologise)! For those who live in small resorts its is less noticable but head out to the town and I know "vast sweeping statements" but it does seem that the majority think that France is/has the best in everything.

Please, on your next holiday to France, please don't say how rainy and miserable it is back home and how great their Camembert is and how we love their wine etc, otherwise they'll believe it and for those who haven't travelled they'll think that the UK really is the 'boil' of the world - and we surely know that it is not!!!

I agree with others before - try Vaujany it offers the best of both worlds, and as someone else said there are heaps of other resorts aside from the famous 5, and chose your holidays wisely and you can find gems in all resorts. An example which I find appalling is Crystal holidays here in ADH have a little booklet suggesting the best tables in ADH, they are all English, there are several real gastronomic delights here and to not be reccommended is ridiculous. Don't worry folks rant is finally over!!! You'd never believe that I'm married to Frenchman!!!
One last 'tip' for those who feel obliged to leave a tip having receieved moderate service, the French farily tip and when they do its about 1/2euros (whatever the cost of the bill). So the service staff love the Brits as we are known to be good tippers - so they should work for it - if not leave 1 or2 euros like the French!

I hope that I've offended no-one.
Razz

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I'm not sure the French deserve to be maligned for poor service. I've had good and bad service in most countries I've lived in or visited. I think its the manifestation of bad service that differs between cultures. For example, in the UK, when dealing face-to-face or even over the telephone, service providers usually will not openly try to evade responsibility, and will be superficially polite and helpful: but some will feel free to break promises once you've gone away. You could argue that the Gallic shrug has the relative merit of delivering dissatisfaction quicker: it's just bewildering to the Anglo-Saxon mind-set.

I'd be interested in what the long-term French residents think.

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The problem arises if you have cause to complain. If you are justified in your complaint, in the UK the employee usually realises this and attempts to lessen the damage done by either resolving the problem himself, or if that's not possible, by passing the buck upwards. As you say, there is an element of superficiality in this, and promises can be broken afterwards.

The French immediate inclination is to defend their product or business as if the criticism has been aimed at them personally. If they lack the expertise to advise you, or to respond to your complaint, that will not stop them from doing so. Admitting that they do not know the answer implies inadequacy. Accepting responsibility for an error implies an unacceptable lacking on their part. They will therefore reject all criticism, irrespective of the strength of your case, or give you totally erroneous answers to any questions that lie beyond their field of expertise.

By way of example, I telephoned the tax office here last week and was given three totally contradictory answers by three different employees. In the UK, if there's the remotest possibility of being wrong, the same employees would be unlikely to commit themselves. Both responses are frustrating in their own way, but I still prefer the British approach.

After all it is free

Doh. Spose that might just have something to do with it Wink

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PG, I know what you mean. My best example is a canoe location in the South West, with whom I'd arranged a pick-up time at a designated spot downstream. They were two hours late, didn't answer the telephone, and we were left with small-ish children in a place with no shelter or refreshment, in the middle of an August day.

When I raised my complaint (in French), I was told that we shouldn't have paddled so quick, after all, "vous êtes en vacances" !!!

Help!!

France rules, but are the French getting it right?

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