 Poster: A snowHead
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There's a topic elsewhere where, inter alia comments are being made about needing more than a week a year.
My own opinion is that that assertion is correct. I mean, you wouldn't expect to be able to learn to play tennis (or golf) at a high level if you only put in one week a year, would you?
My skiing improved generally most and fastest when I did full seasons - i.e. 16 consecutive weeks of at least 5 days a week on snow. Although I will admit that it made the fastest marginal improvements with a few lessons with a couple of really, really good instructors.
That said, I felt a huge difference two seasons ago when I managed 57 (IIRC) days skiing. I would point out that I held down a full time job at the same time.
What do you reckon?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Murdoch,
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What do you reckon?
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- that I am extremely jealous, and chance would have been a fine thing. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Murdoch, I think you need more time the better you get, to achieve still more. At the moment, for me, I'd say 1 week = stay in the same place; 2 weeks = improve slightly; 3 weeks = improve noticeably. This is based on tuition each week - I might regress with just one week on snow and no lessons.
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Interesting topic, there maybe is no fixed answer; it's probably slightly different for everyone. More miles on snow are certainly better than less, and if possible in as many different conditions as possible. (i.e. going off-piste even when it isn't perfect powder)
It's not just a matter of "weeks"; regular 2-hour sessions at a dry slope or indoor snow slope can be useful. Regular race training on dry slopes is particularly good for youngsters; it's amazing what is now possible through SL courses on plastic with the new breed of SL skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah, but...
"16 consecutive weeks of at least 5 days a week on snow"
How can you be so sure that if you ski 16 years of one weeks each, take the same number of lessons, you wouldn't have made the same improvement?
I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't really know for sure. And I'm somewhat skeptical the "drastic improvement" of a seasonare may have a lot more to do with the commitment to skiing than the number of weeks on snow.
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David Murdoch,
I usually ski about 50-70 days a season at home... Not all super duper hard runs, when you live in a dry warm flat land... often 4 weeks at the start of the season where we are confined to beginner terrain (snowmaking efforts start on beginner stuff)... end of season often telemark skis and skins in backcountry...
IMHO the regular time on snow, practice and lessons are keys to continual improvement...
The other BIG improvement came from the summer I spent on rollerblades... I had been having lessons after being advised it would help my balance on skis... but I was still terrified on skates (think screaming, wimpering and going rigid at very unsuitable times).... My rollerblade instructor insisted I needed MORE mileage on the skates... so he decided I needed to skate AT LEAST 3 days a week... he said I could skate anywhere (round a basketball court for example) as long as I was ON the skates... and suggested drills for making the time on flat terrain more interesting... So after work 3 days a week I headed to the local recycled hospital grounds and skated around the roads that ran through the grounds....
When I got back on my skis the next winter I had IMPROVED over the summer instead of regressing... enough so my instructor friends asked what I had done... and decided they were taking up skating to help get their certs... enough so ski school folks were asking them what happened... enough to get MY instructor to tell his private clients to take up skating next summer!!
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Surely it's a question of what you do with your time, and getting the right balance between instruction and free skiing?
I'd say if you get that right, you will improve with a week on snow, but that you'll improve immeasurably more with two weeks in one season than two weeks over two seasons. But also, if you go for too long on one trip without enough rest, you can end up regressing as you're end up too tired (especially if others are fitter & faster than you).
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David Murdoch, I think it depends on what you are doing during the days on snow.
I feel I got worse last season.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, it was harder work than it sounds. Honest.
laundryman, I definitely agree. My perception of the (then - it was a bit of time ago) average Brit when I did my seasons was that a week was just about enough to retain "intermediate" level if that was as far as one had got. However, as...
Martin Bell, suggests, some are more or less talented. I would definitely also agree that time on any "sliding" helps - e.g. I found roller blading really helpful wrt dynamic balance. Although the turn dynamics are quite counter-intuitive when you're used to skiing.
I also found that much of my learning while repping (working!) happened whilst concentrating on doing everything really as well as I could while skiing much more gently, slowly and conservatively than I would typically have done on my own...
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laundryman,
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I might regress with just one week on snow and no lessons.
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Aha, so THAT's what my problem is, or at least one of them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think it depends quite a lot on the individual, at what stage they are already at and how much of the time they are prepared to devote to learning and practicing.
I have been skiing just over 20 years now and recently have skied quite a lot by most peoples standards 20-25 days per year with the odd lesson but not much serious learning and a lot of skiing on a social pottering aroung the piste basis. I don't think my skiing has really changed in the last 10 years or so even when I have though I have learnt a bit at lessons.
Equally I have seen some peoples skiing coming on leaps and bounds with less time spent on snow. I think there is quite a lot of individual variation.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Murdoch,
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it was harder work than it sounds
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Oh no, don't get me wrong, I wasn't suggesting that you didn't work hard, at both paid work and skiing. Not everyone, realistically, has the opportunity to ski as much as you have, though.
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The more you do something the better you'll get at it. If you're mindful of doing it well then you'll get better at doing it well. If you're not mindful of doing it well, you might still get better at doing it well but you might also in some ways get better at doing it badly. Varies from person to person. The lucky ones have a talent for natural biomechanical efficiency, the unlucky have huge psychological overlays playing havoc with their movements. Both will at least get more experienced and cope better with challenges encountered regularly, if not cope optimally or achieve their potential.
I feel a week's ski holiday a year is insufficient for significant improvement, certainly for me and I'm convinced for most people who aren't beginners as well. I reckon at least 2 weeks, or regular dry/indoor practise.
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You know it makes sense.
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| supernaut wrote: |
Surely it's a question of what you do with your time, and getting the right balance between instruction and free skiing?
I'd say if you get that right, you will improve with a week on snow, but that you'll improve immeasurably more with two weeks in one season than two weeks over two seasons. But also, if you go for too long on one trip without enough rest, you can end up regressing as you're end up too tired (especially if others are fitter & faster than you). |
Too long even in a day means you practice poor technique... you get tired technique goes down the tubes... so....
My instructors have always insisted on QUALITY snow time not QUANTITY of snow time... they would rather have me ski very FOCUSED and working hard on technique for 2-3 hours and then go home than have me ski all day but ski half of it poorly....
I ski for a MONTH straight during August every year... unless there is a land gale and the lifts are ALL closed (I'll ski just the beginners run if I need to) or ONCE when rivers were running down the piste I DO NOT have a day off...
Some days though are technical days - requiring much brain power and lots of new learning... others are consolidation days... we may ski longer - but less intense focus... using skills learnt and reinforcing good movement patterns...
Part of the instructor/student relationship is picking which days are suitable for what... It would be very hard to TRAIN every day... ALL DAY...
It all depends how you see the snow time.... if you ski 1 week a year every minute seems to need to be used on snow... if you get a season pass and ski every week it can become less desperate and you can call it quits when you need to....
Pacing yourself in some way is good... you need to listen to the body and do what needs to be done.... [/img]
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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abc, Ah...commitment - I should really have included that shouldn't I?
To answer your direct question, I feel that part of the reason that I improved skiing many days consecutively is that 1. my muscles became "season" fit and 2. developed deep muscle memory about what was going on. Basically a lot of the more mundane decision taking was taken care of. I suspect that many one week a year skiers spend days 1-3 getting fit enough to ski properly - and that may be perceived as - and is talked as - getting the ski legs back.
To return to commitment. you have an excellent point. Many of my co-workers didn't improve a great deal. And I don't think they drank a great deal more Kronenberg either.
little tiger, I do think skating helps hugely, and I'm pleased that you concur. I also think watching ski videos of people "doing it right" helps hugely over the summer, as does careful observation of good instructors in winter.
supernaut, Yeh, I would have thought so, and echoing Martin Bell's comments, that balance will be with the individual. It also comes back to commitment though, doesn't it? Does it hurt so you stop or do you not care? I recall one client who skied so hard on day one that he took all the skin off his shin. He still tried to boot up on day two.
rjs, do more skiing...!
Hurtle, Oh, I hope I didn't get you wrong. And I am massively grateful that I managed to ski so much! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I don't think I had a very good skiing year last year. I skied some stuff well and some stuff not so well. I noticed a few bad things which I am aware of.
I think fitness and strenght will be the key. I'll do about 21 days and expect to be safer on any given terrain with function winning out over style. I'll be concentraing on more fluidity to remedy this.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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T Bar, I second your opinion it's very individual.
I might add I have skiied many years for mulitple weeks a year. But unless I was taking lesson or at least skiing with someone better, which generally means I end up skiing terrain I don't normally ski, I don't improve much at all.
Significant improvements tend to come from seasons I took some lessons. Or during period I have a regular "buddy" who pushes my skiing/terrain boundry. I did not detect much correlation with number of days skiing.
Granted, I'm talking about someone in the "upper intermediate" level and "usually" ski more than one week a year. But to REALLY muddy the issue more, the periods I took lesson or ski with someone better tend to coincide with years I ski lots. (don't we all?)
So, was it the days on snow? Or was it really just the lesson and exploration of one's comfort zone?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| rjs, do more skiing...! |
I didn't ski as many days last season as the one before, but it was still more than 90 days.
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rjs, Do different skiing?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Martin Bell, but... and accepting your prior comments...if you had an ideal student with normal work life commitments and healthy work-life balance (?) - what would be your suggestion as to their skiing cadence?
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little tiger, As a matter of interest, do you ever just bomb down a run without thinking about technique at all, but just enjoying the wind through your hair (either literally, or metaphorically)?
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David Murdoch, there is no healthy work life balance once skiing rears its ugly head...
you just get
"work to earn enough for a season pass"
"ski"
"work for lesson money"
"ski"
"work for money for food"
"ski"
"work to pay the damn bills - damn it!"
"ski"
"work for money for new skis"
"ski"
"work for money for airfares/accom"
"ski"
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| little tiger, As a matter of interest, do you ever just bomb down a run without thinking about technique at all, but just enjoying the wind through your hair (either literally, or metaphorically)? |
REGULARLY!!!
You work on the technical skills so you can REALLY do the skiing without thinking about it...
Hmmmm ask Fastman I think he describes this better than I can... but it is the repetition and training that allows you to really just be in the zone...
eg. I have never seen a rank beginner "just bomb down the hill enjoying the wind in their hair" they are usually saying "i'm gonna run into that tree and die" or yelling "OUT OF MY WAY I CAN'T STOP!"
True relaxed easy skiing I have only seen on those with plenty of training time.... tail pushers NEVER look relaxed always look like they are gritting their teeth....
Many of my lessons involve games such as "stay on my tails" (and they mean it)... and as i am currently in a phase of learning more about "line selection" then the off-piste time (much at home) is most frequently started with "meet you at the tree".... I may get an analysis of my line choice and or performance AFTER I arrive... but you can bet technique is not in my mind when I set out... when we are working on technical we go back to easy terrain - like David Murdoch said - easy terrain and lower speed is very good to develop technique....
You take the technique you have learnt on the easy stuff up to the other stuff to play.... the ultimate measure every season is how well I now "play" with my instructors.... ie where we can go and how fast and what we can do...
Even my first season on snow though my instructor and I always made trips to the top of the mountain so we could look across the alps at the view... This was not the easiest terrain for me to ski - but we made the trip every couple of days because I liked to sit there and get my breath(small hike) looking across the miles of national park back to my home state... seeing the mountains looking back at us across the Murray River's early waters...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
more to do with the commitment to skiing than the number of weeks on snow
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could not agree more, i have done several full season at glenshee, no formal lessons, but skied with 2 basi 1/isi's and a basi 2, on a very regular basis. every day was a learning day for me, never became as qualiffied as them, but i could have if i wanted to. i became really bored with instructing.....lol
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little tiger, VERY good points, VERY well argued. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hurtle,
Thank you Your Pedantness
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger
I fear you're a bit of a technique snob. I am sure the instructors you ski with are much better skiers than most of us could ever aspire to but to suggets only the intensively coached can enjoy relaxed skiing seems a bit far fetched.
We all have a bit of a giggle at the truly inept I'm sure but plenty of people enjoy skiing at theri own pace without regular coaching.
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fatbob,
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plenty of people enjoy skiing at theri own pace without regular coaching
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True, but plenty of other people - me included - really feel as though they are enjoying themselves ie getting a real high, only when they know that they are skiing well. I do get that feeling intermittently during the average skiing day, but if I were a better skier, who had had/still took more lessons than I do, I'd almost certainly enjoy that feeling more consistently.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
True, but plenty of other people - me included - really feel as though they are enjoying themselves ie getting a real high, only when they know that they are skiing well. |
By what standard?
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I do get that feeling intermittently during the average skiing day, but if I were a better skier, who had had/still took more lessons than I do, I'd almost certainly enjoy that feeling more consistently. |
Are you sure? Are you sure that your standard wouldn't creep up as well?
If your post was an extrapolation from personal experience, then I take it that you may not have had much fun your first day?
FWIW, I used to have the same technique monkey on my back. To the point of almost paralytic self-doubt, embarassment, and frustrated rage on off days. With the help of ssh and weems and Pierre and others, I've mostly come to enjoy skiing without it. Much more, I must say.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 5-07-07 23:54; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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To me it depends on your skill level at the start. If you've only done 1 week on snow and then you do another the year after your improvement will be huge, because you've doubled your snow experience time.
The better you get the more you need to practice, to get any appriciable improvement. Law of diminishing returns. Thankfully it's fun practising.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Interesting one. Assuming we're talking about the 'average' skier at intermediate level (comfortable red run skier?) then I think one week is enough to improve if you have some decent instruction and maybe some time on your own after the instruction to practice. Even without instruction, I've seen friends improve on one week a year - however, the rate of improvement has definitely slowed for them and I think some of them are reaching a stage where they're treading water (stomping snow?!). A second week or some instruction is definitely needed if they want to improve beyond their current level.
I'm not entirely sure that seasons are necessarily that effective either. I agree with abc that commitment plays a massive part but, as David says, that's equally true when working a season. I certainly didn't improve too much on my last one, whereas I think if I were to do one now then I'd get a lot more out of it.
But yeah, the more you do the better you get!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob,
Nah - just a realist.... I know I'll never ski like the boys... they have 30 years head start and are 10-15 years younger than me... worse still they all grew up in ski resorts so in days skied I could spend all the rest of my life skiing and still not catch up (especially if they keep working 2 seasons a year)....
The reality is though that just like Hurtle says I can be more relaxed more often the better my technique becomes... and in my case I ACTUALLY enjoy learning - in many facets of life... in fact I have been labelled a learning junky... so for ME the biggest buzz is in learning something and then mastering it...
If YOU do not enjoy the learning process and technical stuff then I'd suggest not reading the Bend ze Knees forums could be a constructive move... rather than getting irritated when people in an INSTRUCTION area of the forum talk about LEARNING TECHNICAL skills
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| True, but plenty of other people - me included - really feel as though they are enjoying themselves ie getting a real high, only when they know that they are skiing well. I do get that feeling intermittently during the average skiing day, but if I were a better skier, who had had/still took more lessons than I do, I'd almost certainly enjoy that feeling more consistently. |
I know what you mean, but I'm not sure that's true, at least not for me. The better I get the more things I'm aware of that I'm doing wrong and the better I want to be.
Because of that, I try to make sure that I just appreciate the level at which I'm skiing now. Sure, I want to improve, but I don't beat myself up over how I'm skiing (unless I have a REALLY bad day!). I still think the best week skiing I've ever had was my first week skiing. I'll be a very happy man if I ever have a week like that again.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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comprex,
My own, I guess, which I concede is pretty subjective.
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Are you sure that your standard wouldn't creep up as well
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I hope it would. But that's the virtuous circle which little tiger describes so eloquently above.
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you may not have had much fun your first day
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Can't remember - it was too long ago But generally I don't mind being bad at something if there is some hope that I will improve. If I'm really dissatisfied with my performance and see no hope for improvement, I abandon ship - gave up playing the piano for that reason. I hope not to have to give up skiing for the same reason!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There are two types of skier, leisure and sport. Nether shall the twain meet. 
Most, if honest will place themselves in the former.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 6-07-07 0:22; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| little tiger wrote: |
If YOU do not enjoy the learning process and technical stuff then I'd suggest not reading the Bend ze Knees forums could be a constructive move... rather than getting irritated when people in an INSTRUCTION area of the forum talk about LEARNING TECHNICAL skills |
Ah but it's important to know your enemy  I read books on technique, do drills (kind of) , and certainly have lots of great technique images in my mind while sorting of my telemarking. But I allocate my skiing cash towards maximising my number of trips a year ( I too got in well over the average no of days last winter with a full time job in the UK) rather than instruction and get turned off by the analysis paralysis that epic type threads induce. Was I skiing better at the end of the season than the beginning? - probably. I was certainly telemarking better, snowboarding maybe same or marginally worse (due to more time spent skiing). Had I learned some experiential lessons? - definitely.
I thought the thread title was about milegae - no one doubts the value of good instruction but on average I'd guess that given other equal variables a person skiing 3 or more weeks a year will improve faster than a one week a year skier if they are remotely pushing themselves regardless of whether they have lessons.
Anyway I didn't think this area was exclusively about instruction but more about exposure to different ideas or tips even if some are incomprehensible or overengineered to my mind. Its not to say I don't enjoy it - its all valid but I do like to challenge the orthodoxy that badge wearers are the only people who can help to improve your skiing, I believe its more in the individual's power.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 6-07-07 0:16; edited 1 time in total
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| Hurtle wrote: |
If I'm really dissatisfied with my performance and see no hope for improvement, I abandon ship - gave up playing the piano for that reason. I hope not to have to give up skiing for the same reason! |
I know precisely what you mean. Before I got wiser I abandoned tennis and running and fencing and taekwondo and whitewater kayaking and came very, very close with skiing.
Then I realised that the feeling of dissatisfaction itself limits the fun I can have in the here and now, and therefore limits the creative side of hope.
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boredsurfin,
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There are two types of skier, leisure and sport. Nether shall the twain meet
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That is almost exactly what my swimming teacher at school - it was a school renowned for its prowess at swimming - used to say. She divided the world into "bathers" and "swimmers." Quite right. In both cases, I'm in the former camp, with occasional aspirations to be in the latter!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, I really do think it is a case of nether the twain shall meet, when it comes to skiing, there well maybe those who aspire, but the majority are leisure skiers.
I certainly count myself as no more than a very average leisure skier.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I believe its more in the individual's power. |
Particularly when that power is playfully creative and having fun -now-.
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FAQ
