 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi Guys - no snow sucks huh!
A while ago you kind snowheads helped me with your opinions on the Sprayway brand. I work in marketing communications to fund my ski training habit 
Anyways, unfortunately our "pitch" wasn't successful, told them to cut product range, get focussed, build on British-ness and be proud of their everyday products that allow people to get outdoors - instead of their confused extreme climber meets dog-walker cluttered range and positioning.
Anyways, onwards and upwards, I got a chance to meet Afzal Khushi last week - a real gent and the owner (with his brother) of Trespass. I'm pitching later in the Summer on a potential new ad campaign for him.
I'd really appreciate your musings, discussion, challenges etc on the Trespass brand.
I've done a few searches on Snowheads and what has come up time and time again is cheap but reasonably reliable ski-wear available at TK Maxx and increasingly at their own stores.
What do you think to this angle...
What if we were to do a Columbia Gert Boyle for Trespass? Build a quirky/engaging proposition that was true to what consumers really wanted - for Gert and her challenging local weather they used her as spokesperson in the fantastic and long running "Born to Nag" campaign - all about obsessive Columbia clothing product quality and how this affected product testing and company culture.
I'm thinking there may be an angle in the fact that Trespass clothing enables you to ski/get outdoors more because you've not spanked all your cash on designer outdoor labels - Trespass and you know what's really important...without compromising too much product quality/style.
...Free 1/2 days lesson to the best post (in Scotland 07/08 hopefully or maybe alps depending on timing) - well, it'd be nice to put that awfully expensive ISIA qualification to good use...
Cheers guys
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Re ski and snowboard... I think as long as they resist the temptation to move up the market, they already pretty much "own" the end they are at. They have undoubted knowhow in manufacture, warehousing and distribution (possibly unparalled) so if it were me I'd be looking to introduce more brands at different price / tecnical / fashion levels and grow that way. I think I already know the answer though... they'll want to only work the Trespass name but, in the UK at least, it is so established at the cheapo end and so omnipresent that the only way might be down (down as in direction, not filling!)
As an outdoor brand though... could successfully slot right into that Sprayway slot you outlined.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've just bought Trespass (OK it was from TKMAXX!) I bought it because of the price, and because it sounded as though it would meet my needs - keep me warm and dry - they actually had the foresight to state that the fabric was water-proof to a certain degree - some of the other brands were just water resistant. After my holiday this year with all the 'wetter' type precipitation I discovered that my merely water resistant' branded jacket was not enough. I was able to get the matching 'Radium' jacket and salopettes (others might not agree, but I think 'matching' looks good). Also, the sizing was better than many I tried on - I've actually got room to spare in a medium!
We've had Trespass in our home for many years - its always kept us warm and dry around the smallholding and whilst out walking and I look forward to being able to try my new skiing gear in action. Skiing is an expensive business at the best of times - I wanted a reliable name and a 'performance' jacket that wouldn't break the bank and Trespass fitted the bill in many ways.
How's that?
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I actually got my trespass ski pants because they were the ones I liked most in the shop. They were in fact the cheapest but I didn't like the more expensive ones. "cool and warm at half the price"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have a Tresspass wind proof fleece and think its the best one I have had light comfortable and windproof without breaking the bank. I wish all gear was like that.
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I tend to buy Tresspass stuff for the kids. They don't stay outside when it's crap weather, it's cheap (important as you get two seasons use max, while they grow) and the kids like the styling.
I'd put them a couple of rungs above Sprayway.
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Thanks guys - Afzal told me that Columbia used to be all about low cost value before their ad campaign - just like Trespass. Now in terms of brand perception I would put Columbia up near North Face/Berghaus in terms of perceived product quality and brand status. Clearly, moving a brand upstream and increasing margin worked for Columbia - but from what I'm hearing so far - cheap dosn't have to = poor quality and in dan100's case price wasn't even a factor in his Trespass purchase decision.
Just to throw a spanner in - what do you think if Trespass brought out a brilliantly engineered jacket that cost £400, whilst still doing all the low cost range stuff - what would it take for consumers to buy into that flagship model?
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| dg3 wrote: |
Thanks guys - Afzal told me that Columbia used to be all about low cost value before their ad campaign - just like Trespass. Now in terms of brand perception I would put Columbia up near North Face/Berghaus in terms of perceived product quality and brand status. Clearly, moving a brand upstream and increasing margin worked for Columbia - but from what I'm hearing so far - cheap dosn't have to = poor quality and in dan100's case price wasn't even a factor in his Trespass purchase decision.
Just to throw a spanner in - what do you think if Trespass brought out a brilliantly engineered jacket that cost £400, whilst still doing all the low cost range stuff - what would it take for consumers to buy into that flagship model? |
I wouldn't spend that much on a ski jacket anyway as lots og good options around £200 mark. Maybe they should go down the toyota / lexus route
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dg3 wrote: |
Thanks guys - Afzal told me that Columbia used to be all about low cost value before their ad campaign - just like Trespass. Now in terms of brand perception I would put Columbia up near North Face/Berghaus in terms of perceived product quality and brand status. Clearly, moving a brand upstream and increasing margin worked for Columbia - but from what I'm hearing so far - cheap dosn't have to = poor quality and in dan100's case price wasn't even a factor in his Trespass purchase decision.
Just to throw a spanner in - what do you think if Trespass brought out a brilliantly engineered jacket that cost £400, whilst still doing all the low cost range stuff - what would it take for consumers to buy into that flagship model? |
I'd have put Columbia in the same bracket as Tresspass.
I wouldn't pay £400 for a jacket from a brand with an extremly good reputation so definatly not from a new entrant in that technical category. I personaly think if Tresspass is thinking of entering the tecnical arena, they would be better with a range that is not branded tresspass. Weather that be via creating a new tech brand or a merger/accusition would be their call.
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I agree, I wouldn't buy a £400 jacket from anyone.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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OK I'm hearing £400 is way too high - got that - interested in what dan100 means by toyota/lexus route - are you thinking badge engineering to create a new brand which shrugs off mainstream Toyota positioning and allows entry into the luxury end of market? I'd worry that could fragment the Trespass brand/message and annoy loyalists...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Whilst I wouldn't pay £400 for a jacket either, would it be posible to have a two part brand strategy? Sort of like Berghaus used to do with the Berghaus name for the evryday stuff and Berghaus Xtrem for the truly technical top end gear.
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How about taking a North Face angle similar to the Toyota/ Lexus angle mentioned. They used to be only high end technical stuff and then moved downwards to the mid market and had a confused product range.
they now have the "Summit Series" and if you are after the best from them that is what you look for. I am sure you could come up with a high end series name that doesnt disrupt the Trespass brand and image but offers a competitive product to the others.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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thanks guys you're stars...I'm going to take this thinking off-line now, I have 'a' direction I'll be researching more formally in the next wee while - don't want Saatchis to nick the idea 
And I randomly scrolled up and down responses with my eyes closed and landed on the person who I would teach for 1/2 a day - and believe it or not it was me.....so I did it again and it was Russell (so if you fancy a bit of feedback (if I can give you it - you could be a downhill racer for all I know) you're very welcome - eithor Scotland nxt winter or Alps if timing works out.
cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dg3, cheers you may just have a deal there. Thanks  I have always fancied Scotland for day just say I have done it
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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building on the technical/extreme range how about Trespass AAA for Access All Areas - keeps the parent brand name but defines a high end niche. Just an idea
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You need to try to keep the brand away from the pile it high sell it cheap retailers ....you never see Spyder in TK Max
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Trespass to me says reasonable quality low end ski wear. Cheap and cheerful. It's a market segment they seem to fill well, so why change their core values?
I have paid £450-£500 for a jacket in the past, and will do again, as I ski in poor conditions and off piste more often. At that level brand image wasn't important to me, more important were technical features and quality of construction. It wouldn't necessarily put me off that it was made by Trespass, however it would be unlikely that I would be looking in the Trespass section as it wouldn't occur to me that they would be offering something that I may be interested in. Furthermore I think that when you look at the shops that stock the high end stuff, they don't tend to have Trespass.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Regarding Sprayway -- no manufacturing firm should ever emphasise its Britishness today. Made in Britain stands for shoddy, overpriced goods. Almost noone in the world respects Britishness anymore. Even the Brits know their own products suck.
Regarding Trespass --
It is perceived in the UK as a low-end, low-price, moderate-quality brand.
It targets low-end, low-income buyers, who are probably aged well over 25.
If Trespass is going to move toward the midrange or high-tier, then it will need to upgrade its intrinsic and extrinsic values.
That means better design and materials (product). Cooler stores selling their clothing (distribution). And more sophisticated marcomms (brand).
It will require an overhaul of their TOTAL strategy. Not just a bit of tinkering with a few adverts.
To convince the ski snobs that Trespass is no longer rubbish will be difficult, if not impossible. Brits are unsophisticated and slow to drop old or dated viewpoints. Take Vauxhall -- they make solid midrange vehicles, but they are still perceived as a low-end car for losers.
The best bet is to build a sub-brand or a wholly separate brand, to differentiate away from the downmarket Trespass image.
Something like Trespass Ultra or Tpass or whatever.
Leverage the production and distribution of Trespass, but tweak the brand.
Anyway, good luck. Let us know what you decide to run with and how you get on after the pitch.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 30-05-07 21:06; edited 2 times in total
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Interesting that no snowHeads involved in retailing (snow or other) have responded to this thread 
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Whitegold,
Do you know how many people ask "where is this made?" in my shop.- OK it’s a gift shop not an outdoor shop but……
Lots of people comment that the postcards are printed in China and don't buy them because of it.
If something is made in Britain it should be shouting it from the roof tops not hiding away from it.
Trespass- Have a few things by them and they are just as good as my other kit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The stats don't lie.
Made in China is booming.
Made in Britain is declining. Fast.
No manufacturing firm should be talking up their Britishness. There are arguable exceptions, like whisky, but they are rare.
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| Quote: |
It is perceived in the UK as a low-end, low-price, moderate-quality brand.
It targets low-end, low-income buyers, who are probably aged well over 25.
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To convince the ski snobs that Trespass is no longer rubbish will be difficult, if not impossible
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So it doesn't say a lot for me that I've been out and bought Trespass - have I really bought myself a load of junk?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| So it doesn't say a lot for me that I've been out and bought Trespass - have I really bought myself a load of junk? |
No. I'm sure your Trespass ski gear will do its job well enough in typical conditions you'll encounter when skiing. If it is exceptionally wet (with rain) or exceptionally cold it might not do the same job as higher specification skiwear, but under those circumstances the nearest warm bar is the best place to be!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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do trespass make very breathable/waterproof kit, 10,000mm at a minimum???? i personally dont use the stuff, rather use kit that i know works. i dont think it will/can ever shake off being known as cheap kit
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
I tend to buy Tresspass stuff for the kids. They don't stay outside when it's crap weather, it's cheap (important as you get two seasons use max, while they grow) and the kids like the styling.
I'd put them a couple of rungs above Sprayway. |
Absolutely agree with this view.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| So it doesn't say a lot for me that I've been out and bought Trespass - have I really bought myself a load of junk? |
No. I'm sure your Trespass ski gear will do its job well enough in typical conditions you'll encounter when skiing. If it is exceptionally wet (with rain) or exceptionally cold it might not do the same job as higher specification skiwear, but under those circumstances the nearest warm bar is the best place to be! |
nah the softys will be in the bar, while the die hards get the slopes to themselves
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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graeme,
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do trespass make very breathable/waterproof kit, 10,000mm at a minimum???? i personally dont use the stuff, rather use kit that i know works. i dont think it will/can ever shake off being known as cheap kit
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You asked the question - The gear I've just bought is this Radium range (different colourway though) - this listing from the web site shown shows the technical specification - does this qualify as breathable/waterproof as per you comment if you accept the specification untested at face value?
http://www.outdoorgear.co.uk/outdoorgear/ctl3870/cp19495/si1933198/cl2/KITZBUEHELRADIUMSKIJACKET
More than just a famous ski village in Austria, Kitzbuehel is a performance jacket from Trespass. Advanced Radium technology results in a waterproof, windproof and breathable garment. Climate control management lining, ventilation pit zips, adjustable and detachable hood with volume adjustment - just some of the advanced features of this impressively stylish performance jacket.
The Kitzbuehel boasts a snow skirt with stretch panel for ease of movement and loops allow it to be secured to the trouser creating a snow and heat seal. The jacket has a goggle pocket, audio loop, lift pass & comms pocket, storage pockets and D-rings. A comprehensive garment to accompany you, work with you and protect you on the mountain slopes.
WATERPROOF: with hydrostatic head of 10,000mm
BREATHABLE: 8000g/M²/24hrs
WINDPROOF: perfect for the slopes
SHELL: 100% polyamide
MESH: 100% polyester
TRICOT: 100% polyester
LINING: 100% polyamide
PADDING: 100% polyester
FEEL: softer hand feel
TECHNOLOGY: bi-component technology
TAPED SEAMS: total protection
GOGGLE POCKET: convenience
AUDIO LOOP: freedom to move
SNOWSKIRT: with stretch panel & loops
HOOD: adjustable & detachable
SPECIFIC POCKETS: for lift pass, comms etc
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, I wouldn't have a clue what any of this means - what on earth is "hydrostatic head of 10,000mm"? how does thr average person know whether this is good or average? same for breathable spec. What is bi-component technology and why is that a good thing?
anyway, I think you got a good deal on kit which will suit you for a while, but (and I know you are a scientist) did any of this actually influence your decision?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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holidayloverxx, I did particularly want something that was waterproof and I knew that claiming a hydrostatic head was some indication of water proofing - but (see comments above) how much head = how much waterproofing was something I didn't comprehend. I believe the hydrostatic head test is something to do with subjecting the fabric to a column of water of a certain height and seeing when it leaks through. Similarly I knew that I would prefer something breathable - the jacket had a rating which meant some of this quality, but again how good this is is in practice is beyond me. I knew that taped seams were good for waterproofing and wind resistance. I think the bi component technology is related to the breathability and waterproofing, but I'm not certain.
So what affected my decision. At the end of the day it seemed a bit more technically advanced than what I had, I found matching jacket and salopettes, they fitted, looked OK on me and both items together cost £67! I'll leave it to you imagination as to what really affected my decision
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, Me, I just saw black Spyder and got out the credit card 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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holidayloverxx, 
B.t.w. If I could have afforded it I would have liked some Goretex - I guess thats 'the' real stuff to have. I just hope I don't get laughed off the slopes at the EoSB next year if I get there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, I woudn't worry about it, it's not a fashion contest (luckily).
thread hi-jack - sorry
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd put them at the bottom end of skiwear with Protest & dare2be. This isn't necessarily a bad place to be - the late lamented Rodeo firmly occupied this place. Its the sensible choice for those who don't use the gear every day as cost per wear stays relatively affordable.
If you are a high mountain guide I suspect if you had to buy your own kit you might go for Arcyteryx or Mammut etc because your cost per wear is still trivial.
Don't see the point of taking the brand upmarket - unless they were deliberately not to sell it through their traditional channels :own stores/TK Maxx/Millets etc.
Just in case you think I'm being a bit of a brand snob I bought my current ski jacket at Super Soccer Sports 
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Don't see the point of taking the brand upmarket |
Low-end goods have low barriers to entry.
Low-end firms without global scale, like Trespass, are prone to attack.
There will always be someone somewhere who can open up overnight a cheaper factory in a cheaper region, churning out basic designs.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| Don't see the point of taking the brand upmarket |
Low-end goods have low barriers to entry.
Low-end firms without global scale, like Trespass, are prone to attack.
There will always be someone somewhere who can open up overnight a cheaper factory in a cheaper region, churning out basic designs. |
Agreed but I'd doubt its possible with the existing brand or some bastardisation therof. & a more upmarket brand needs investment in design, quality of production & all the other stuff you've already identified . I would suggest different channels so the average punter doesn't even realise its in the same stable like a Blacks & Millets next door to each other.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dg3, I'd say the NF and Berghaus have downgraded in the last few years. They used to be innovators when they were small and have gone high st since the startup guys sold the business' on.
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dg3, I looked into this when I did the clothing for skinflints thread. One of the most confusing aspects of ski clothing is the plethora of technical jargon surrounding fabrics and their name trademarking . . . there's just SOOOO much marketing bollux to wade through and/or show off with. Ski clothing price points are ridiculous and the only item of ski clothing outerwear that is genuinely sport specific are sallopettes, everything else can pretty much be all season/all purpose.
It's not rocket science to design and market ski clothing with the features that are useful rather than superflouous . . . try a (window) pocket on each forearm, one each for lift pass and insurance card . . . a spring clip on elastic in the main pockets to retain wallet, keys etc. for those days when you forget to zip the pocket closed.
And 'REAL WORLD' descriptions of the conditions the clothing is suitable for. By all means have a range of clothing and price points that cover the difference between a mid-winter stroll down Blackpool prom and a high Himalayas hike but don't demand that we need a Phd in textile technology to tell twix them.
Lastly, there're subtle lines 'tween boring, garish and naff in design terms . . . judging by the stuff I saw last winter and just yesterday, Trespass don't seen to have any idea where those lines are.
edit: and a website that isn't full of gaps . . . + the logo needs some thought, at the moment it's just a Berghaus knock-off
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