 Poster: A snowHead
|
BASI office has told me that Snowsport Scotland ASSI will no longer give exemption from Foundation BASI Trainee Instructor course, after this year.
They are planning their own replacement for the ASSI, which would also replace the Trainee course, so as to allow teaching on UK Artificial Slopes, once the pass standard has been met. Something the Trainee Instructor award at present does not allow.
It has come from the failure to get agreement between BASI, Snowsport England & Scotland.
BASI seems to want to go it alone.
BASI 4, here we come.
Has anyone heard anything different?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Any idea when this might happen? Would it mean any changes to what the Trainee Instructor course covers? I assume it would change the nature of the Trainee Instructor at least in that it would be a pass/fail situation? I also assume that you would be able to do the new BASI 4 on a dry slope if it was tailored towards that? Whole things sounds like it might be riddled with problems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
rob@rar, AFAIA from 2008. At the moment the Scotish ASSI pretty much covers what is on the Trainee course, but gives a usable teaching qualification at the end of it. Scotish ASSI is not a pass or fail course at the moment, yes you can pass after the 5 days, do 20 hours supervised and then teach, or need further work and then be reviewed by a coach at a later date when you have met the standard, in whichever areas were lacking. Very similar to the Trainee course at the moment. The Snowsport England ASSI system is straight pass or fail test.
From the impression I got, BASI 4 will be able to be done on a dry slope.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Spyderman, I'm planning to do the Trainee Instructor course at the start of next season, and will decide where just as soon as BASI release the course dates. Do you know when these decisions will be taken by BASI?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I think the base problem is that no one person actually understands all these qualifications in the UK let alone their equivalence in the rest of the worlds ski nations! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
rob@rar, If you don't hate Plastic/Snowdome, why not get on a Snowsport Scotland ASSI course this summer? I'd imaging BASI have already made the decision, just finalising details at the moment, for a launch this winter season.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 16-05-07 8:19; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Spyderman, getting the qualification is of secondary importance to me compared to the potential for thorough technical teaching from the basics up. Friends who have done the Foundation week in recent years have been very impressed with the quality of the whole thing, and that's what I'm more interested in as a prelude to the III assessment and perhaps moving towards Grade II. I'm not really interested in taking a shortcut through this process by going for an ASSI course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, I'd say the the teaching element was better on the ASSI course and the technical performance better on the Trainee course. If you don't have a Club Instructor background, why not do both? It would give you a good headstart. THe ASSI can be done over 2 weekends.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Spyderman wrote: |
| If you don't have a Club Instructor background, why not do both? It would give you a good headstart. THe ASSI can be done over 2 weekends. |
That's a good suggestion, I'll look into it. Haven't skied on plastic for years - will need to get some practice in!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar,
There is normally a foundation week in Tignes in November. This may suit you as you could commute from Bourg.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| stewart woodward wrote: |
rob@rar,
There is normally a foundation week in Tignes in November. This may suit you as you could commute from Bourg. |
Who runs that? Is it Phil Smith? I'm hoping to be able to commute as it will save a bit of money on the accommodation side. I had looked at the ICE courses in Val d'Isere as well as the NewGen courses in Courchevel. Just waiting for dates to be released so I can plan which one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
rob@rar,
If you contact Phil Smith he will probably know the dates as it is part of the Gap Course he runs. Checkout snoworks web site for more details
The assessment will be carried out by a BASI trainer.
The BASI web site is currently being updated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar,
| Quote: |
That's a good suggestion, I'll look into it. Haven't skied on plastic for years - will need to get some practice in!
|
Racing will help too 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I think this is such a good move by BASI for loads of reasons, shame that they couldnt reach agreement with Snow sport scotland/England. It is such a British problem having numerous squabbling competing industry bodies confusing the general public, but at the end of the day BASI is recognised worldwide and should take the lead.
I agree with boredsurfin, Who knows anything about Snowsport England qualifications for instance. At the end of the day having BASI trainee, ASSI (england) ASSI (scotland) and a Club Instructor path for instructors is confusing and idiotic. They should be amalgamated into one qualification. This would also bring BASI roughly into line with the Canadian and PSIA systems and potentialy bring in peeps that go down those routes due to cost and time constraints.
A BASI 4 that allows teaching in the UK is a great thing IMO and may bring some professionalism into instruction on the artificial slopes. Perhaps having a recognised standard that IS PROMOTED by BASI and lets punters know what they are getting and that the instructors have First aid & child protection training, and, are covered by liability insurance.
[/b]
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
A BASI 4 that allows teaching in the UK is a great thing IMO and may bring some professionalism into instruction on the artificial slopes
|
Why ?
| Quote: |
lets punters know what they are getting and that the instructors have First aid & child protection training, and, are covered by liability insurance.
|
SSE and SSS qualifications are the same as BASI in this respect - first aid mandatory and membership (of the coaching scheme) gives you insurance.
I absolutely agree that there should be one coaching system - having three seems a little excessive ! But I don't think that having BASI run it would necessarily bring the benefits you suggest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
They should be amalgamated into one qualification. This would also bring BASI roughly into line with the Canadian and PSIA systems and potentialy bring in peeps that go down those routes due to cost and time constraints.
|
Surely the simplest solution is to have 1 EU (for the pedants EFTU to include the Swiss/Andorrans!) qualification that is transferable to other ski continents and of, course, vice versa. Can anyone see any genuine reason why not 
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
|
boredsurfin, like ISIA and ISTD you mean
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
brian, I know nothing, merely commenting as a confused person 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Interesting to read this - thanks for posting Spyderman.
I was under the impression that BASI, Snowsport England & Snowsport Scotland were moving steadily towards and agreement but it seems that's fallen through which is a shame, even if it were just to bring a little clarity to how the different qualifications work.
There's so little clear information on the web about ASSI and it's relationship to what BASI do it's silly but I guess that's a reflection of the current mish-mash of qualifications and competing bodies offering them.
I'm currently doing the SSE ASSI on plastic and once through that I'm toying with the idea of doing one of the Snowsport Scotland week long courses at Milton Keynes. It may be doubling up somewhat but that way I'll have both and be exempt with the Scottish ASSI, at least for a few months, from the Foundation BASI Trainee Instructor course. I guess it's still worth doing but thank goodness I decided to do this now rather than next year!
Anyway, IMHO we could really do with a webpage (or site) that clearly explains the differences and relationships (if any) between the different qualifications because IMHO at the moment it's as clear as mud for any prospective trainee/student.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
roga, SSE ASSI = Scottish ASSI. If you already have an ASSI - then I'd do the BASI Foundation course.. at least it'll be on a mountain - rather than in a fridge
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
According to an announcement made at the British Junior Champs, Basi have decided that, failing any agreement with the home nation governing bodies that they will 'go it alone' with their own alpine coaching qualifications.
I believe the issues with the governing bodies were that BASI would run courses for them but wanted to own the intellectual rights to those courses. This was a major stumbling block.
As far as I can see it, BASI see an opportunity to make money (they are, after all , a business).
At this announcement, they were unable (or perhaps unwilling) to give any detail on their proposed coaching system or any equivalency issues with current coaching qualifications.
I have subsequently discovered that they have been talking to the CSIA about becoming licensed to deliver their coaching courses. Whether this comes to fruition or not, we shall have to see.
I have reservatuions about BASI taking over completely as we have a lot of instructors/coaches on the lower rungs of the ladder who are volunteers at local facilities and, if BASI price things wrongly, the sport may lose these people or, at the very least, not have anyone else working in this capacity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Spyderman, A serious request! Could you do a list of what all the abbreviations stand for and a brief explaination of each 'cos I'm more confused than normal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
boredsurfin, ASSI = Artificial Slope Ski Instructor SSE=Snowsport England. CSIA= Canadian Ski Instructors Association, BASI I presume you know?
No mention of Wales here then 
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 16-05-07 11:58; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
roga, The only difference is the BASI recognotion. You get a UK wide license - so Scottish ASSI = SSE ASSI.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| ski wrote: |
| roga, The only difference is the BASI recognotion. You get a UK wide license - so Scottish ASSI = SSE ASSI. |
So why do BASI 'choose' to recognise one and not the other - politics?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Yoda, Thanks but what are and are they better/worse than Basi?
ISIA and ISTD
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
roga,
| Quote: |
So why do BASI 'choose' to recognise one and not the other - politics?
|
Dunno - probably has something to do with them both being Scottish.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
BASI is based in Scotland but is national.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
veeeight, The meeting described by Georgio was just concerned with race coaching qualifications not with any proposals to change ASSI etc.
The existing Snowsport Scotland APC courses were developed from the equivalent numbered CSCF ones and are run by CSCF level 3 & 4 trainers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| ski wrote: |
roga,
| Quote: |
| So why do BASI 'choose' to recognise one and not the other - politics? |
Dunno - probably has something to do with them both being Scottish. |
Hmmm, well I'm Scottish but happen to be doing the English ASSI - I don't see that's got anything to do with it to be honest. I meant politics with a small 'p' rather than some grand Scottish nationalist conspiracy lol.
However, to cover myself, I could of course be completely wrong and decisions may be taken in such an utterly illogical and silly way but I'd again like to see some evidence of this before I accept that's the case.
| snowaddict wrote: |
| BASI is based in Scotland but is national. |
Precisely, BASI is based in Glenmore (foot of the Cairngorms, just off the ski road) which I'd suggest is a more logical place for them to be than say the flatlands of southern England. That doesn't mean they have an automatic Scottish bias, most of their members teach abroad anyway and I'd guess there are as many, if not more, BASI instructors coming from England as from Scotland.
I think the question should perhaps be why do we have three national snowsports organisations (IIRC there isn't one in Northern Ireland or am I wrong?) which each run their own ASSIs (as well as coaching) and only one is recognised by BASI? Having seen no evidence I'm afraid I'm still not convinced that the Scottish and English ASSIs are exactly the same and I can at least point to one difference in the Club Instructor Award which isn't a qualification offered by the Scottish ASSI. BASI have, for some reason, chosen the Snowsport Scotland ASSI as preferable to the English one, and redesigned their own course as a result, as noted on the Snowsport Scotland website here:
"Snowsport Scotland ASSI holders can gain exemption from the BASI Foundation course. In fact the BASI foundation has been redesigned to mirror the Scottish ASSI programme."
Sorry ski but that still suggests to me that something about the Scottish qualification impressed BASI more than the others, I'd just like to know what it is and logic suggests it has to be something that's different to the English (and Welsh) ASSIs over and above the lack of the Club Instructor Award.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Spyderman wrote: |
| .....Scotish ASSI is not a pass or fail course at the moment, yes you can pass after the 5 days, do 20 hours supervised and then teach, or need further work and then be reviewed by a coach at a later date when you have met the standard, in whichever areas were lacking. |
The Scottish ASSI course is a pass or fail course - the pass rate at the course I did in was 3 out of 10. Yes, failing students are able to go & work on their weak areas & then get re-assessed at a later date but if they're still not up to it then no certificate. It's certainly not just a case of attending the course & automatically getting certified at the end, as implied by your "not a pass or fail course" comment.
Also, passing the Scottish ASSI does not automatically give you exemption from the BASI Trainee Course, this has to be recommended by the ASSI Examiner who writes it in on the students assessment/report sheet. As roga's quote from their website says
"Snowsport Scotland ASSI holders can gain exemption from the BASI Foundation course"
Note the word can as opposed to will. Of the 3 who passed my ASSI course I was the only one to gain the BASI exemption.
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
boredsurfin, ok, let's start with BASI. They have four levels:
Trainee
Instructor (historically Grade 3)
Teacher (Grade 2) - this corresponds to ISIA (International Ski Instructor Association)
International Ski Teacher (Grade 1) - corresponds to ISTD (International Ski Teacher Diploma), this is the one where you have to pass the dreaded Eurotest
Up until now, if you'd done Snowsport Scotland's ASSI (Articial Ski Slope Instructor) you could skip the Trainee level and go straight to the Instructor level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
roga, SSE ASSI and Scottish ASSI are equivalent. You get a UK wide license with an ASSI, there is no difference in the outcome. The SSE (and Welsh) systems have a different route - i.e. via Club Instructor, but that's all.
I think the reason for the difference is that the Scottish course can be taught on snow - when there is some, whereas the weekend courses used by SSE are more suited to the dryslopes and volunteer/part time nature of teaching in England.
The only difference is that BASI only recognise the Scottish one. It is not the case that (other than BASI recognition) one is different to the other.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
ski, My reference to professionalism was referring to the CI standard of Instructor not ASSI. I think the ASSI or BASI trainee level should be the minimum to teach in the UK.
Let me be very contentious for a moment. I was appalled at the teaching knowledge and ski ability of some fo the part time instructors at my local dry slope. When i started going there i just assumed that there was a single "instructor" qualification and that as a pupil you could expect a high level of technical ability and teaching knowledge.
I personally don’t feel that person "who can ski to basic parallel standard" take a 2 day course followed by 20 hours of supervision is qualified enough to teach skiing at any level. I would not be happy to pay £40 per hour at my dry slope or >£100 an hour at a snowdome for my kid and receive that level of competency. As a general punter i would not have known, nor should have to ask the question as to what "level" of instructor will be teaching the class. CI, ASSI, BASI is all gibberish to the general public. Do golf pros, scuba teachers etc have multiple governing bodies?
I am sure there are loads of good teachers at CI level but if they are experienced it shouldnt be a big stretch to take a 5 day ASSI course.
IMO CI should NOT be considered a high enough qualification for paid instruction to the general public. I didn’t however appreciate that they had to obtain a first aide certificate and stand corrected on that comment but i am still unclear if CI's carry liability insurance.
You can look at CI's two ways, a way for people to volunteer to help out a local dry slopes with school groups, or a way for dry slope owners to get free labour to teach paid for lessons. My local dry slope will not pay part time instructors whatever their qualifications as they have plenty of CI volunteers happy to do it for free, they get to wear a badge and get free slope time for their families.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rjs, ahhhhh. My mishtake! It said CSIA not CSCF so I assumed CSIA!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 16-05-07 15:11; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I am sure there are loads of good teachers at CI level but if they are experienced it shouldnt be a big stretch to take a 5 day ASSI course.
|
There is no, or very little financial incentive for them to do this. Apart from personal development, slopes do not reward greater qualifications accordingly. I don't know what the cost of gaining your ASSI is these days, but the payback in terms of any increase in wages is an extremely long time.
Under the SSE Candidate CI's have liability insurance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
As a general punter i would not have known, nor should have to ask the question as to what "level" of instructor will be teaching the class...... Do golf pros, scuba teachers etc have multiple governing bodies?
|
Of course they do!
BSAC have Assistant Diving Instructor, Practical Instructor, Theory Instructor, Open Water Instructor, Assistant Advanced Instructor, Advanced Instructor, National Instructor.
PADI also have a myriad of levels and qualifications.
The same also applies for mountain guides.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 16-05-07 15:36; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
veeeight,
| Quote: |
Under the SSE Candidate CI's have liability insurance.
|
thanks for clearing that up for me, and twice in this thread i stand corrected, i will check before making sweeping statements in future 
| Quote: |
There is no, or very little financial incentive for them to do this. Apart from personal development, slopes do not reward greater qualifications accordingly.
|
My point exactly, why bother have reasonably qualified teachers in the UK when we can fob off underqualifed CI instructors that we dont have to pay on the unsuspecting public. That is the whole reason BASI exists, to ensure a good internationally recognised standard of qualifications, and to ensure their members can earn a living while plying their trade.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
