Skiing Myth #4 = Face down the hill / Stand square to the skis

A snowHead

Watch any novice skier and chances are, that you will see them starting their turns with their shoulders, and torso.

It’s kind of intuitive, when we walk around in normal life, we tend to look where we want to go. And so we transfer this when we first get onto skis.

For simplistic reasons, as our feet are closer to the snow than our shoulders, it would make sense to initiate our turns with our feet, as opposed to our shoulders.

But look around you, and at the countless youtube.com videos, and chances are that you will see many many skiers still initiating turns with something above the waist level, or using their bum to wiggle their turns round.

We usually call this “rotation”. Good rotation (desired) is generally when you initiate the turn with your feet and/or thigh, turning the femur in your hip socket. Bad rotation (undesired, but there are exceptions, waiststeering included) is usually when something from your bum upwards starts the turn.

So. It is desirable, in general all mountain skiing, to separate your upper body, from your lower body. Both halves should be capable of working independently. You should be able to turn your skis, feet and thighs, independently from your upper body. (There are instances where you might tactically choose to use bad rotation, but is outside the scope of this thread.)

This takes practice. If you’ve done ski school, chances are that your instructor has, one point or another, given you an exercise, where your upper body faces a fixed point (usually downhill), and you are asked to make turns whilst keeping your upper body facing that fixed point. Variations with poles exists, eg; picture frames, poles held horizontal etc.

It’s a staple series of exercises, and they are great at promoting separation.

When you master separation, and are in the position where your skis are pointed across the hill, whilst your upper body is facing down the hill, you are then in a position known as “countered”. Various names exist for this, including “counter”, “counter-rotated”, “counter-acting”.

Note that countering, or counter-rotation, is not a deliberate move. It happens as a RESULT of you turning your skis under your body, with separation.

So, what are the benefits of countering? Well, it ensures that you remain balanced on your outside ski (so you don’t end up facing uphill and losing grip), it also lines up the body segments/muscles so that the bigger, stronger muscles are in a position to do most of the hard work.

So, the question on everybody’s lips – How much counter, or how much should we “face down the hill”? (Remember, counter is not a deliberate action, it is a result of you steering your skis under you).

The simple answer is – your upper body should face the line of momentum (tangent to the arc). (It will also vary slightly from each individual, due to their personal biomechanics, and from males to females).

But for now – a good guide is that you should face the line of momentum (tangent to the arc).

Instructors at this point normally draw in the snow, something like this:

Right? Wrong!

The diagram above makes a line that is the tangent to the arc of the skis. Momentum is the tangent to the arc of the Centre of Mass, which will be inside the arc of the skis.

The diagram below illustrates the differences between a long radius turn, and a short radius turn.

As you can see, in a short radius turn (right hand pic) – you will be more countered to the skis, and in the long radius turn (left hand pic) – you will be more square to the skis.

The answer to whether to face down the hill or stay square to the skis lies in what you are trying to do at that moment in time.

In a short radius turn, you will have a large amount of counter-rotation, so your line of momentum relative to your skis will be straighter down the hill.

In a long radius turn, your won’t have a large amount of counter-rotation, so your line of momentum will be a lot closer to the direction of your skis, so you will be staying squarer to the skis.

In the steeps doing short radius turns to control the speed, you will want to be balanced on your outside ski, with very little/zero on your inside ski. So you will end up countered and facing your line of momentum, down the hill.

So – just get out there, go skiing, and think less about facing the outside of your skis (whether you face down the hill or the outside of your skis depends on how much you turn them) and more about facing your momentum. And keep working on seperation!

A snowHead

eh...eh....mm.....eh....i'll get me coat

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Looks complicated at first glance but totally understood when read carefully. Great post.

Now how much weight should I have on my inside ski? wink

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Great post veeeight! Having been told different things by different instructors I've never really understood this. I still won't be able to do it rolling eyes

but it helps to know what I'm trying to achieve!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

spyderjon, now connect the tangent points of departure and you have extension*.

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veeeight, excellent post.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Thanks all, so far. It's good to know that some folk are interested! Laughing

After all it is free

* Except, of course, the "extension" referred to here:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=436418#436418

which is also along the black arrow tangent.

...um, out of interest, I thought there was a thread on this yesterday, where there had been some discussion - where has it gone to?

edit: it's ok, I found it.
V8 - your explanation above is Smile

- a lot more technical than the one I gave in the "squabbling" thread. (would you like to comment on what I said in my first post there?)

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Is it possible to add the position of the pole plant to the diagrams?

I've seen 3D pics used to explain this too in books etc, anybody got links to similar pics on the web?

You know it makes sense.

veeeight, Very good post and clearly explained. However I think we should point out that when walking you may look where you're going, but you don't actually go there by turning your shoulders do you. Your feet still have to carry you into the shop/pub, and just turning your shoulders is a very inefficient way of doing that too. You need to look where you're going on skis too. wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

easiski, Your feet still have to carry you into the shop/pub

Problem I have is my feet carrying me out of the pub........ Toofy Grin

A snowHead

blytht, that's when you need the Beer Moped. Greatest device ever.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

veeeight

In your first two diagrams, can I assume that the pages they are drawn on are not aligned to the slope exactly, i.e. that the top of the page of the diagram is not directly up the mountain and the bottom of the page is not directly to the valley? I have to tilt my head 45 degrees to the left for them to make sense.

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skiday, I am sure that they are top to bottom of page is the fall line. I don't quite understand why you have to turn your head? If the turn if the arc and the arrows are where your body should/nt be pointing it seems quite clear. Did you have the idea previously that your body was supposed to point around the turn?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Having raced and fallen off (far too frequently) a number of two wheeled death-traps and still have a few acquaintances in motorsport it is a truism that . . .

you go where you're looking and you hit what you're looking at

Skiing is like any other activity that takes us faster than we can run, just like driving, you need to look ahead and where the eyes go the head and shoulders will follow and drag the hips and knees behind. There's an autonomic response mechanism that explains this but what's more important is our developing a concious technique that can override this and teach us to respond in a more controlled manner to panic stimulus.

Very difficult when we ski so infrequently . . . this is an argument for people en-mass to get far more involved in activity sports in daily life.

There is also a question . . . Is our adoption of a 'safe' lifestyle and living environment conditioning our mental processes in a manner that makes us less able to cope with the inherent dangers of an active sport like skiing and thus making us far more prone to injury simply because we cannot react to a dangerous situation in a concious manner?

Is that why we should be making far more use of teaching and training?

lots of questions there . . . your thoughts . . .

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skiday, veeeight's diagram makes perfect sense to me (and very well explained too!).

Maybe you're thinking that he intended to show the starting direction as pointing straight down hill. I think his start is just after completing a left turn and starting a right turn (having crossed the fall line).

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Masque, Have to agree with you on 'look at the gaps not at the trees' (or from my biking days, look round the corner, not at the hedge). You are probably also right (if I am any kind of example) in your comments on 'safe lifestyle' and training. What to do about it?, well personally, I try to get as much time on snow as I can, and do try to fit in lessons when possible.

Beyond that I basically recognise my own limitations and when I think I'm in danger of exceeding them (through weather/slope conditions or being too kn@ckered) I usually head for a bar Toofy Grin

After all it is free

Masque, "you go where you're looking and you hit what you're looking at " I like this expression - can I use it? I've never heard it quite put like that before, but it's very true. Very Happy

skiday, It's drawn as if you are overhead the skier, and the skier is going from the top of the screen, to the bottom of the screen, down the fall line.

It's a pretty techhy subject, and in hindsight, is better explained in person, on the hill.

This thread really is a reference to those that have experienced conflicting advice from their instructors (eg; face down the hill / face square to the skis) - and wanted to know why there was an apparent conflict.

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veeeight,

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*arrrgh F$*!

(Skier is walking back up piste to collect left ski after wipeout)

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AxsMan,

Drawn from experience, I feel Laughing

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boredsurfin, Sadly oh so true Sad

easiski, be my guest, I doubt that it's my provenance to claim as I will almost certainly have heard it somewhere in the past. It's certainly a lesson learned with experience . . . application's another story altogether wink

You know it makes sense.

We certainly use similar expressions in skydiving/ parachuting to avoid flying into hazards. We tend to call it Object Fixation and if you look at it long enough you will fly into it!! Not a good idea when the object is a power line or helicopter or building. Sad

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Hapened all the time on the little road above the day lodge on Cairngorm - there's a stream just by the 90deg turn ..... rolling eyes

A snowHead

I like it. Makes perfect sense and well explained.

A snowHead

It works for mountainbiking too. Don't look at the rocks Embarassed

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, Used a lot in motorbike riding - people focus in on a hazzard mid bend and ride straight into it.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

*bump*

how does the direction you're facing affect pole plant choice?

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Ahhh. *That* can of worms.... Confused

As a brief reply, I'd say that normally the placement of your pole tip is relaint on (a) The steepness of the terrain (b) The radius of the turn.

(b) is mostly as a result of (a), eg: It's very very steep, so you will probably be doing short radius turns or jump turns, so your position will be very "countered" - which will lend itself to planting the pole directly down the fall line.

I'm sure there are exceptions wink

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I've come across a few instructors who say that you should stand square on modern carving ski's, but I've always been of a view that it depends on what you are trying to do.

veeeight, top explanation and diagram. It explains it really well.

After all it is free

There are some clear national differences, as well.
Two that I know about:

US ski-teaching system: angulation with some countering ("strong inside half")

Swiss system: no countering (so "square to skis") and pure inclination, no angulation. (Disclaimer: I have done no official courses in the Swiss system, I base this purely on conversations with several Swiss-based instructors in Zermatt.)

In the end, there is more than one way to skin a cat, but an expert should be capable of all techniques and should be able to make fast, correct judgements when deciding which one to apply for a given situation.

I'd agree with what Martin Bell is saying about the Swiss, I work with Swiss and Italian instructors, who stand squarer to their skis than say, the US folk. But re the pure inclination thing, I wouldn't say *pure* - they still angulate, but much later in the process, and less than the US and Canada for example.

Infact at the recent Interski in Korea, there was much talk about this emerging trend (standing squarer to the skis). They used a posh term to describe it, "bi-axial movement" or something like that. I switched off at the point Very Happy

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Skiing Myth #4 = Face down the hill / Stand square to the skis

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