 Poster: A snowHead
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I am an english ski instructor working for the esf at morzine. Every week we work with crystal holidays providing lessons for the children on holiday at their club hotel. Crystal take the bookings for the lessons and then contact the ski school specifying how many instructors they want. This regularly ends up with one instructor being resonsible for 7 to 10 three to five year olds. This is more than I as a ski instructor see as the maximum for effective learning. The ski school cannot provide an extra instructor as crystal won't pay. Obviously this doesn't look too professional to an outsider observing the lesson, but we cannot change that without crystals understanding that this is detrimental to the quality of their clients holiday.
I am asking for feedback both positive and negative so I can speak to both the ski school and Crystal to improve service in the future.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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crasher, welcome to snowheads.
When in Les Arcs 2000, we regularly saw groups of 30 - 40 skiing off in the morning. A couple of people in my group, learners, bookeed private lessons, and the esf instructor failed to even turn up 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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crasher, positive - that's the cheapest way to do it.
Negative - the kids won't learn much, if anything.
Tour Op's and ESF seem to think that the price is the big selling point, and it probably was some time ago. But more of the UK market is now from kids who have parents who ski and want the sprogs to have decent tuition; the clients are becoming more sophisticated, therefore they need to react to this.
If it weren't true the independants wouldn't be growing as quickly as they are.
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| Quote: |
the general complaint is that classes are too large. I realise this is probably the TO's fault, not ESF
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Not so. Most TOs selling ski school are just signing you into cours collectif, not booking their own instructors for the group (the exception to this being schools ops). The number of people per class is up to the ESF, not the TO. Crystal and MW are unusual in booking instructors sprecifically for their clients.
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Lizzard, this must surely only apply to their club hotels, as this has not been our experience on other Crystal holidays. I would not like to see my 3-5 year old in a group of 10 others. There must be laws governing ratios of adults to children in France too. My sister-in-law could not even take her three children swimming when they were all under 8 despite two of them being able to swim.
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Helen Beaumont, no idea what it applies to, to be honest. But I'd agree you're not getting a good deal for your littlest anklebiters - I don't think the ESF will usually take them in lessons at all if they're younger than four.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Not that I have any anklebiters anymore.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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crasher, sorry but I don't think ESF or Crystal would take much notice if you raise it with them, they're probably already aware of the situation, the best thing to do would be to advise your clients to either raise it with the Crystal rep in resort or include it on the feedback forms that they're asked to fill in at the end. It won't change things instantly but if enough people are raising this one issue then the TO is more likely to take action. Just my opinion 
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I'm sorry to say crasher but the ESF is notorious for large class sizes. Whether this is the fault of a tour-op, a local ski school manager or general ESF policy is irrelevant: everybody sees that red and white clad instructor on the hill with a dozen plus kids in tow and nods knowingly, "That's why we use the independent ski school". (Actually, for the ESF, your classes appear quite small  )
In my own experience though, I booked my 6 year old son into ski school directly at an ESF office once and he ended up in a class of 16!
I know good instructors who work for ESF and would gladly ask for them by name but I would no longer just book a lesson cold and trust the ESF to provide suitably.
Many independent ski schools loudly declare a maximum class size and wouldn't excede that for sake of tour-op dollar.
I don't think you can really assume the tour op is to blame for the class size: it's just going to give you as many kids as you'll take to maximise its commission. IMO it's up to your ski school manager to assert what the maximum sensible number is per instructor, based upon what is best for all the parties involved.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks for everyones comments, and for trying to keep this constructive. Morzine esf are really committed to keeping class sizes to a minimum and also keeping the school profitable. Its true that the esf is cheaper, and classes have to bigger to combat this. Also the taxes we pay are higher, and so lessons potentially have to turn over more to allow for similar profit, in comparrison to a ski school/instructor not paying taxes in france. I have to set aside 26% of my pay just to pay my french national ins, thats not including income tax which I declare annually.
The biggest class I have taught this year is ten, which is usually fine, and the max class size allowed is 12, but the directors always try to keep it to 10 if at all possible.
What I'm particularly interested in is young childrens classes, where the ratio of instructors to children needs to be higher.
What I want to do is present this information to Crystal to try to change things locally. I can't move the mountain, but i can try to improve things for our clients in Morzine.
Keep it coming, thanks...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Re other t.o's I also work for Esprit who also work on a similar system to crystal and request the number of instructors. We always have really small class sizes with them, which is great.
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Poster: A snowHead
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crasher, Booked ESF in Vallandry over Christmas for 4-year old. Was not at all impressed, they refused to recognise the lessons she had had at MK Xscape as being relevant so confined her to the bunny slope - about 20 feet long and flat. With about 25 in group and 3 instructors.
We gave up and took her out ourselves and she happily ski'd the long blue from top of lift to village.
I have used them myself and found them fine, but with kids I don't think so. Will never use them again for the kids.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Boris, we booked ESF Vallandry at half term. They stuck two of the kids in our group, absolute beginners aged 6 & 9, in a non-English speaking class of 14 children.
Terrific 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Y I man!
But their old man is from North Staffs..so I can translate at times of need 
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| hopeless wrote: |
The non English speakers might be explained by the fact that this is the French ski school in France. Sorry to be patronising, but this is a fact of life. The instructor will most probably have spoken to the 2 little ones in English too. But you are in a foreign country!  |
If you ask for the "English" class at the ESF and are told you'll be in it, u do tend to expect that some English will be spoken.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 9-03-07 18:19; edited 1 time in total
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It has been years since I brushed with the ESF though I have been cut up by ESF classes much more recently.
Surely 6 is the maximum class size for any effective learning? If you have more than that how far strung out does the class get? Why not take a stand and say that?
I appreciate that older kids might be more into bombing around after the instructor so can tolerate a bigger class size but as a paying adult I wouldn't be happy with more than 6 so why should parents be any different.
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We all had lessons with ESF at Devoluy at Feb half term Kids (8 & 6)were in groups of 14 - 17! At New Year we had been to Austria and the groups were between 6 and 10 and they definitely came on leaps and bound there, we were disappointed with the lack of progress in France,it was French school holidays and the resort was really busy, but having said that groups were far too big. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Anyone any feeedback on Morzine?
I fully agree that small class sizes are better for effective learning, but the esf is not a uk school and does not charge their prices. The prices are focussed towards the french clientele who generally have less disposable income than their friends from across the channel.
Remember that their there are 17000 esf instructors in france, and there is good and bad in all.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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crasher, this shouldn't be turning into a 'bash the ESF thread. SnowHeads, please keep this thread to constructive comments, Morzine in particular.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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crasher, how about having two kind of "classes"? One a proper class with no more than 6, preferrably 4 kids.
Call the other one "accompanied" skiing! The main objective being the little ones don't get lost in the woods. Children being natural observers and immitatiors, just skiing around in groups will help improve their ability, if not correct technique.
I suspect you'll get all the French clients book into the cheaper kind and the Brit's book their children into the "proper" instruction class.
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Just returned from La Plagne and could not believe the amount of ESF instructors on their mobile phones whilst at the front of their groups. I saw and picked up 1 little one without his instructor even looking behind him!!!!
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You know it makes sense.
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Well, I saw plenty of ESF kids groups in Pre La Joux 3 weeks ago - and the kids looked to be enjoying themselves. Only concern really was when two kids went into a culvert on the right hand side of the 4.5km long green run and the instructor and the rest of the group kept going. I dragged one kid out, the other got out on his own, and they caught the group up about 4 bends later when the instructor had stopped to regroup.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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abc, Good idea and something the esf is trying to do. This year in Morzine they have formed a parallel ski school called 'the snow school' ( guess who this is aimed at) focussing on small class sizes. Its more expensive of course but classes are small. So we do try to have something for everyone.
Re mobile phones I hate it too. Sometimes its difficult as we get called re late bookings for privates. Me i won't answer then if its the school I will ask my class if its ok, then call back when stopped. I guess some other guys don't want to miss out on work, as if they don't answer the office may call the next on the list.
They love their rules. I can't ski wearing a drinks bottle holder (promoting good practice) as its not part of uniform. But there seems to be nothing against smoking and drinking in uniform during the working day.
Hey I was skiing in cognito on my day off under the fornet cliffs in Avoriaz, I stopped to wait for my missus and an old boy skied past with a class whilst smoking a sherlock holmes pipe, bearing in mind this is steep(ish) i had to laugh, but it's not great advertising.
Thanks for the comments I am taking them in to the office to show what a 'cross' section of people think, and thanks Helen for also asking for people to keep it constructive.
On a final note... I've got 2 group lessons this week. One with 4 dutch kids, and one with 5 english kids. So if you're in morzine I'll be the red smiling!
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Poster: A snowHead
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crasher, We used ESF through Esprit in Les Gets a couple of weeks ago and it was a great success. My three year old was in the snow garden in a group of 5 (Esprit max is 6), the teacher was excellent and my three year old had great fun, even when it rained (well just about) and was excited by the whole experience.
My six year old who had skied before (with BASS last year) was in a group of 5 (Esprit max is 8 I think) came on really well and was going down the red run into the Les Get bowl by the end of the week with me, which I was happy with. Again the teacher was friendly and helpful.
Both instructors have completely changed my view on ESF. All I knew in the past was big classes, no English spoken and "survival of the fitest". Class size really does make a difference and both my daugthers had a good time and are desperate to go again, which for me was a great result.
p.s. My wife told me that the general "looks" of the ESF instructors in Les Gets has also improved - maybe I should start to worry?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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crasher,
I think ESF Morzine are doing a good job compared to ESF elsewhere, with regard to class size and trying to cater for British clientelle. I noticed this season in BASI news, ESF Morzine advertising for British instructors. Whether this is responding to the demands of their clients or the growth of BASS taking their business, who can say, probably the later. I can understand ESF bowing to the pressure from TO's to maximise their profits from the supply of lessons, due to their enormous purchasing power. In the end though you pays your money and you takes your choice. I can see the reason for ESF instructors not being able to offer quality instruction, due to class size. If I was given 10 instead of 4, 5 year olds, it would be more like child minding than instructing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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tecnica10, My phone was ringing about 4 times per hour in the middle of the holidays with peeps wanting to book lessons. I can't turn it off as it may be my next client saying they'll be late or something (also I'm my own secretary of course). Howver it got so irritating int he end that as soon as I heard the word "renseignement" I just said "sorry, full, goodbye" (in french of course)! Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid, but it's much better than the days before mobiles. then you had no way of letting anyone know if there was a problem on the mountain, or if you were stuck in a lift, or going to be late etc.
crasher, when I worked for the ESI here I suggested separate lessons with small groups etc. They didn't want to know, so I left and went on my own. Now it's me that sends work to other schools, and all they have is "classe des neiges" from the banlieus - really rubbish work.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I had a really good experience with my ski instructor from the ESF in Morzine a couple of weeks ago. There were only four people in my group (although this rose to 8 as he was so good people kept bringing their mates in from other groups). So funny and really patient - some of my mates said the ESF instructors they had seemed a little jaded with having to teach cretinous beginners like us! I'd recommend him if only I could remember his name - he was French and actually from Morzine, but really, shame on me!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks everyone for your feedback. I am now going fully armed to the technical director with what I see as balanced feedback.
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crasher , I've not skiiedwith ESF or in Morzine, but I do play the 'count the number of people in the ESF class' game whilst waiting for the OH to catch up/on the ski lift! I have always checked the ratios in the class before booking. One of the problems I think you face is that ESF is a National 'franchise' for want of a better description. Therefore as you see here, people will give you lots of feed-back on ESF here there and everywhere. A bad experience elsewhere will dissuade the uninitiated from using ESF again even if it is a different resort.
This is of course where Snowheads comes in  -allowing people access to some accurate/unbiassed(ish) details on where they are considering going. In these days of litigation I am fairly surprised that ESF still operate such high student/staff ratios at all. Good luck!
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My 7 yr old had esf for a week in Vaujany this year I think there were about 8-10 in his group, english was good enough for him to understand, he had a great week, progressed and passed his 1*, so he was happy 
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My friends daughter was in an ESf group at Tigne Las Breviere, started out with just two of them + the instructor. Went up to 4 after a couple of days. It was a mixed ability group, she was doing her gold star (she passed) the three lads were competition. So sometimes the ESF groups are small. The younger kids had larger groups, but also seemed to have a helper aswell as the instructor to keep an eye on them all.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think ESF are conspicuous because of their skiwear, but watching groups of lessons from the safety of the ski-lifts, its clear that there are good & bad instructors from all ski schools. Yes, I've seen the men in red skiing fast down the hill with no apparent regard for the chaos unfolding behind them, but i've also seen & been impressed by other very mindful ESF instructors.
Last week I was nearly wiped out by a snowboard instructor from Arc Adventures, who came from behind in bad visibility, straight across the tips of my skis........no apology 
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From my own observations over the last two weeks in the PdS:
On two occasions ESF Morzine instructors seemed to deliberately lead a crocodile through a BASS lesson in progress, once while we were lined up down a slope playing 'human slalom'. I witnessed countless episodes of what appeared to be huge classes snaking around with little teaching and much less fun. I noticed that children seem to cry more in ESF classes (sample size bias).
But the deliberate attempts to disrupt non-ESF teaching means that ESF will never get to teach me, or my kids.
DrE
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