 Poster: A snowHead
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Had a buzz round on the skis today for a change, spent a lot of the available time remembering how utterly PANTS they are on hard snow. And I mean even slightly firm snow, not even getting-on-for-icy snow. A clue here - they're worse than the board is in hard conditions.  I have Dynastar Legend 4800s, and while I love them in nice soft conditions and off-piste bits, they wee wee me off in anything else.
So who can recommend a pair of skis which will hold an edge decently in hard snow? I'd be delighted to hear good reports of anything Salomon because I can get them at cost price.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard, try a slalom ski? Salomon would do, doesn't need to be top of the range...
Just for the avoidance of doubt, are your edges in good nick (i.e. sharp)?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Murdoch, sharpening up the edges will help a bit, but it won't change the basic characteristic of the ski. I asked around a bit after I'd bought them, because I was beginning to wonder if it was just me (very different to what I had before) and apparently the whole Legend series is pretty rubbish on ice - not what it's for. I don't regret the purchase, but could do with something else for hard pistes.
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Nothing held an edge like a Volkl P9 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lizzard, you need good edges & a ski that is torsionally stiff - which no longer means being limited to a slalom ski as there are now plenty of mid-fats that have great edge hold.
Re specific manufacturers, both Atomic & Volkl have well justified reputations for great edge hold across their ranges.
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spyderjon, thanks, will have a look.
What's anyone think of K2's Burnin' Luv? (Apart from the fact that it has an irritatingly silly name.)
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Lizzard, I'd like to echo Metronboy. Athough i'd lean a little harder towards Volkl, as the range has a wood core.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Ta. Any more for any more? Am seriously looking at new skis - situation at the moment is that boardng is more fun than skiing, which really wasn't the point of the exercise.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard, It's just an illness and will pass.
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kiwi1, no mate, the original Rossi 7S held and carved the P9 out of its socks. Anyone remember however the K2 E.I.S.? Small prize for anyone who can work out the initials...
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 29-03-07 21:49; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| kiwi1, no mate, the original Rossi 7S held and carved the P9 out of its socks |
Mate. The P9 didn't carve. It cut 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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spyderjon,
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You know it makes sense.
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kiwi1, yeah, but nothing like the 7S
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Not got enough experience to say much but the Head iXrc800s I had in Valloire this season were noticeably a class above anything I've had before/anyone else in the group had. I'm usually a complete wuss and was instead flying around on some fairly hard packed/morning ice conditions in the snowdrought in jan. Once they got an edge nothing would prise them off again other than me loosing my nerve and throttling back. I am pretty heavy though, my 10st friend tried them and couldn't get them to bite at all so horses for courses and all that. aj xx
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Lizzard wrote: |
spyderjon, thanks, will have a look.
What's anyone think of K2's Burnin' Luv? (Apart from the fact that it has an irritatingly silly name.) |
First, sharpen the edges. If they are not sharp enough to scrape off the back of your fingernail, they aren't sharp enough. I'd recommend a 3 degree side bevel (and 1 degree base bevel) to make them work best on hard snow.
That said, the Burnin' Luv would be a good ski for those conditions, definitely. The metal laminate helps with the torsional stiffness--which in turn helps the edge hold.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard, Lots of people like the Burnin Luv - I didn't. I found them planky and slow to turn. I'd say the fischer RC4 as an all around compromise would be good. My WC SCs are probably a bit too much. How big are your feet? You can try them if you like.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, my feets are a 5, though I can't find the Mondo size marked on my boots - rubbed off, probably.
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Elan Magfire 10 - was great on the ice - absolutely no problem with edge hold, and was beautiful through all the crud and slush and on the nice stuff and the nice deep stuff as well. I really couldn't fault it. Great torsional stiffness in this one. Also the Speedwave series worth looking at for more piste only ski as even better torsional stiffness.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| kiwi1, no mate, the original Rossi 7S held and carved the P9 out of its socks. Anyone remember however the K2 E.I.S.? Small prize for anyone who can work out the initials... |
Ok, I'll take it - Extreme Ice Ski...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Lizzard, I have just (yesterday) demoed next year's Elans and as a result may I sugest you look for a pair of SpeedWave's absolutly brilliant. I have never skied anything so positive, they just eliminated ice!! The model was just named SpeedWave and had a radius of 13.1. I must say that I was suprised as I have also demoed this years model and was not impressed.
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Dypcdiver, what did you feel was lacking in this year's SpeedWave, and which one was it? One of the guys I was staying with a few weeks ago was using the SpeedWave 12 and was very happy with it. I didn't get a chance to try it myelf though.
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I have found Missions astonishingly good on firm piste/ice. Somehow, Scott have built in torsional rigidity. But they are not an ideal piste skis, and I found myself skidding on them in tight turns in the race (probably in part my technique, though). They also don''t like running on a shallow-slope piste. If I had a second pair of skis for the piste, they would probably be Fisher RX8s.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard, the Salomon Equipe 3V would do a job for you. Not tried them myself, but I hear they're a decent plank.
Can you get to demo any over there, as there's a couple of versions?
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Ta. And does anyone know anything about these: http://www.libtechnas.com/ ?
Mr L has one of their boards and loves it so much he practically sleeps with it. They're a bit wider ski than I'm used to though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lizzard, given that Salomon skis are available to you at cost then I'd be looking at their race carver models for hard piste performance: Equipe GC/SC? I hired some 4800s once in soft snow and they seemed quite flappy so wouldn't expect much of them on hard pistes, but a full edge tune could make all the difference...
If you move into race type skis then your boots will also have to be up to the job to get the most from them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, That looks like fun. What is it? down hill ice-skating?
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You know it makes sense.
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balernoStu, boots are Salomon's X-Wave 8.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lizzard, don't restrict yourself to a race carver when you have all the mountain to explore. The fact you enquired about the Burnin Luvs suggest you want some off-piste potential. My wife's K2 Fujative's work fantastic off-piste and grip icy pistes really well. The same goes for Misdameanor's. She also loved the piste performance of Ross. B3's (the off-piste goes without saying). You will get a good deal this time of the year in local shops. Good luck with your choice.
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Poster: A snowHead
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chris, I don't particularly want a race carver - I like to ski all over the mountain and mess about in bits of off-piste as well. I'm a bit wary of going for a race ski, hence looking at K2 and Lib-Tech.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| balernoStu, boots are Salomon's X-Wave 8. |
Sorry I'm not able to remark on any particular models, but I've skied a race ski with floppy old boots and know it didn't work!
Its 'detuned' GS skis I've liked, rather than the proper 'race' models, and find them usable but not at their best off-piste. Sounds like they're not what your after though. I'm looking forward to trying a wider ski off-piste myself in April, somewhere not that far from you 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Lizzard, I'd echo Spyderjon with regards Volkls.
Having tested quite a few skis (Salomon X-Wings, Bandits, Metrons, Nomads, etc.) on my trip to Canada last week - nothing really came close (as far as edge grip is concerned) to my Volkl Superports (4-star).
However, they're maybe not be enough of an 'all-mountain ski' for you - I really did have a tough time in the afternoon slush and soft snow on the Volkls (although my instructor would tell you that's down to my poor technique!)
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Another pro-Volkl person here. I love the edge hold. I've not tried that many skis, but the edge hold on the Volkls were in a different league to the Dynamic and Rossignol supposedly equivalent models that I used. I have Volkl Attiva 4* (the ladies equivalent of Supersports 4*) and the edge hold is very good indeed. They aren't too bad in powder or slush either - not ideal, because they are too narrow, but OK when you have to do it due to the condition of the pistes, or for a bit of fun. They are fab on bumps.
I've now moved onto Volkl Racetiger SL Race skis, as I want something that will go faster and be more stable on piste, and they have the most awesome edges I've ever come across. Because you want to do a bit of off-piste I wouldn't say these are ideal, although they coped pretty well with slush. However in the limited time I've had to use them, the Racetigers have a stunning amount of edge grip available on the icy bits. After all, they are based on the skis racers use and they deliberately make slalom courses icy to stop them cutting up, so I can't think of anything better for ice than a race ski (plus, obviously, making sure your technique is up to scratch, or at least better than mine!).
I use Salomon Rush 8 boots (ladies equivalent of X-wave 8's), and they seemed to be able to cope with the stiffer race skis.
I suspect the answer is that just as I am accumulating a stable full of bicycles for different types of riding, so I will accumulate a stable full of skis for different snow conditions. This could be your excuse to start a collection.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| chris, I don't particularly want a race carver - I like to ski all over the mountain and mess about in bits of off-piste as well. I'm a bit wary of going for a race ski, hence looking at K2 and Lib-Tech. |
You might wish to use a slightly different reasoning now than when you bought your first set of skis, otherwise you wind up with the same compromises and 2 pairs of skis that both have the same weaknesses. The 4800s you have now are neither an ice carver nor a powder floater (bumps maybe).
One can make the argument that an all-mountain ski doesn't need to be stellar in a set of conditions if the skier's skills are sufficient. I'd buy that, but then we wouldn't be having this thread.
Out of curiosity, what size 4800s and how much do you weigh?
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Lizzard, if you want all mountain with huge grip when it's hard/icy, try Volkl AC3s or AC4s - great fun all over the place
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SHello, agreed, on the here's three pick two chart: Powder Ice Bumps they are on the pow/ice axis.
Head monsters in the 70s might be a bit friendlier.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Had a buzz round on the skis today for a change, spent a lot of the available time remembering how utterly PANTS they are on hard snow. |
I had the prequel to the 4800, the 4x4 which I didn't care for on steep and icy slopes but I found that the 4800 were not that bad, at least on the bare glacier ice I was skiing on. They did quite a bit for stiffness compared to the earlier models so you don't get the chatter on the shovel that you used to get with the Intuitive and 4x4.
They are a bit too much of a carving ski to have great grip on hard, icy snow. You end up with the tail and shovel biting but not much in between. That said I have crossed a few people using them in places such as the east couloir of the Pic Central du Vaccivier (55°/100m 50°/400m for anyone interested) so they can't be that bad.
You can see Pedro has a pair on his back here
http://www.skitour.fr/photos/couloir-vaccivier,1622-10.html
ok the snow is powder there but in this photo
Pedro is in the Peyrouse on refrozen firn snow (there was another guy on the route with 4800)
So I don't think they are utterly PANTS.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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comprex, 172cm and 65kg (but should be nearer 60).
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Lizzard, there's your answer. You can improve edgehold with the combination of:
sharpening edges
increasing edge angles
donning an 8-12 kg rucksack
Seriously, I know 85kg men who ski the 172cm on ice most of the winter.
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FAQ
