 Poster: A snowHead
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I didn't get it in Bankso, town is at 1350m slopes up to 2500m.
Had it in LDA for 2 summers now, town at 1650m slopes 3200m - 3000m, quite severe on day 1. And just had it again in Val D'Isere, town at 1850m, went up slopes up to 2800m before it kicked in.
My symptons are feeling slightly light headed as if I'm going to faint, very weak, no energy and I'm very up for sport usually, a feeling in my bowels like something's on the move (but it isn't) and traces of blood when I blow my nose.
On day 1 it kicks in in the afternoon and I have to come back down to town and lie down, I am out of it for 2 hours though it seems to me like I've only laid down for 15 minutes. Then I'm ok again for the eveing in town. Next day back up the slopes and it starts again but not so severe, I last longer and need a shorter lie down. By day 3 I feel it coming on and go down but don't need to lie down, just rest.
In Val I didn't dirnk coffee or tea and very little alchohol all week.
This is a right nuisance and I'm losing skiing time.
I am fairlyfit, I play squash and tennis regularly. I have raised but not high blood pressure - no meidcation.
Sorry this is turning into a long post but hopefully it will be wothwhile.
Reserach on the internet throws up various remedies though I am avoiding prescription stuff:-
Homeopathic = Coca 30ch + Bach Rescue Remedy
Ginkgo Biloba (160mg, or 2 * 120mg, daily)
Vinpocetine
Asprin (75mg daily)
One instructor I met in LDA said drink 3 ltrs of water a day; well I didn't measure it but I gulped lots in Val to no effect.
Any qualified or unqualified comment most appreciated.
Mike
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 22-02-07 19:25; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mickey, there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to who gets altitude sickness. In my experience there are only two things that work: 1) go down immediately and 2) acclimatise gently. This does mean that you should take it easy if going to t ahigh resort. Day 1: stay at resort level; day 2 risk 2 - 2,500m max; day 3 if OK go higher. when you get to altitude always have a rest and a drink. You difinitely need to drink a lot of water, but it won't stop you getting sick - it will stop you getting dehydrated though which is almost as bad. Sorry not to be more help, hope this is useful.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's weird isn't it. I once got it quite badly in Serre Chevalier, staying at 1500m, but not in LDA or La Plagne, so maybe it wasn't the effects of altitude. It was very cold that particular holiday. Does temperature have an effect? We discussed this at length with Jonpim, and others a long time ago. http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=97648&highlight=zolpidem#97648 , but not sure if there is a natural remedy, other than coca leaves. Friend was given them to chew when he was in the Andes.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There are plenty of resorts where you don't need to go to the kind of altitudes where altitude sickness is a problem.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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SnowGod, Or Colorado shouldn't be a problem there (much) 
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Just been reading that old thread. 
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trouble sleeping is a symptom but I had no trouble sleeping at all, slept like a log every night (as I always do).
Oh, and I also get short of breath.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 22-02-07 20:20; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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THC works, if a little naughty. 
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A couple of good starchy meals such as pasta are a good help too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Does it actually effect a cure or just make you feel better ? I don't do it usually.
(cannabis for those who don't know)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Helen Beaumont, I do eat a lot but maybe not so much starchy stuff in Val, cos we were in a catered chalet - hence lots of red meat.
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micky, WHAT! Cannabis! Don't touch the stuff, it makes me laugh, god help me! 
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You know it makes sense.
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micky, pasta for lunch then. (Now, you're not going to tell me you skip lunch are you?) If you want to try one of the remedies listed above, I suggest the Ginkgo, as it will probably help with the light-headedness . The dry atmosphere in your overheated chalet won't help either.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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micky,
I have been to the Himalayas four times at much higher altitudes than you mention here.
I have only had minor altitude problems however I do know some of the symptoms. I am not a medic by the way, but AMS is not in my experience something that comes on suddenly. It usually starts with a headache which is a warning sign. Weakness certainly is a sign but bowel problems and/or vomiting usually come a bit later.
Lots of people skiing seem to think they have altitude sickness but I wonder if that is the case. In my experience and by that I mean including what I have seen of companions when trekking, although I agree it varies from person to person, it does not become a problem below 8,000 feet. Even above that altitude most skiers have got up there in a lift rather than flogging themselves uphill as you do trekking. Furthermore you usually ski down to lower levels again quite quickly.
You might want to get checked out to see if you some kind of respitory problem. Perhaps it is indeed altitude sickness but I would suggest you might want to broaden your investigations a little.
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Poster: A snowHead
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richjp, a doctor that I had a quick casual conversation with mentioned "cold induced asthama" - I am open to suggestions.
The other thing is that by Friday I am gagging for the skiing - down the black run several times and can't get enough - a completely different man to the monday. This suggests to me that I am acclimatising to something.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| SnowGod wrote: |
Heard coca leaves are great but not readily available in the alps and slightly dodgy... seems to work for the bolivians though
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Yep, the Spanish encouraged the Bolivians and Peruvians to chew coca leaves to keep them working for longer periods in the mines.
Coca leaves are readily available in those countries and it is quite common for tourists to use them. You stuff a whole fistful in your mouth and chew them into a mulch much like chewing tobacco.
I was in a night club in La Paz once and trhey had bowls of coca leaves on the counter in the same way as we might have peanuts.
Trouble is they can keep you awake all night and I am getting a bit past that kind of thing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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micky, A good old fashioned remedy is a tea infusion of cloves,sage,mint and basil ~ why it works I dont know but im told it does! Also if you cant be doing with all that --good old coca cola /Pepsi will keep you hydrated (alt sickness is linked with de-hydration) and although it does not have cocaine in it (it used to!) it has some other derivative that acts in the same way 
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moon, That is interesting - presumably the caffiene doesn't matter - or maybe it helps.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Altitude sickness......see.....that must be what causes the forgetfulness!!
Mind you, I don't know about absolute sickness, but I once went up to see the glacier on the Corvatch one August (I desperately wanted to see snow in August!) - 3303m and was amazed at how incapable the lack of oxygen made me. Climbing up the steps back to the restaurant complex after walking on the ice it was all I could do to take 2 or 3 steps without stopping for breath and I felt absolutely lifeless. That was my first experience of the effects of 'real' altitude. I been really aware its possible effects ever since so this thread is quite interesting for me.
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Megamum, when Easiski takes her pupils up to the glacier at Les Deux Alpes there's always a stop for coffee or water or whatever at the glacier restaurant before the lesson starts.
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Helen Beaumont, I tried hot chocolate but that didn't help - I'm seriously wondering about the caffeine, I usually drink decaff coffe but maybe the caffeine gets the blood pumping around the body better.
Any medics out there ?
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micky, I'm a pharmacist. Caffeine is a stimulant, as most of you know already. it is also a diuretic, and diuretics, particularly acetazolamide are used to prevent altitude sickness. It opens the airways (has been used to treat premature babies), and increases the heart rate. A small dose of caffeine may give short-term benefit, and get you over the bad feeling at the beginning of the day, but it won't help those suffering from lack of sleep, so go easy on the coffee at night.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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richjp, although when trekking in the Himalayas you do acclimitise to the increased height slower than being jetted into a ski resort at whatever height.
Garlic, in pretty large quantities, was meant to be very good to take at altitude, although I don't know whether its to help with altitude sickness or help with your energy levels when the air gets a bit thin. Or just to ward off any unwanted attention
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cathy,
I wonder if garlic breath travels further at altitude?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That explains the pong in the (closely packed) Jandri Express on the way up to the LDA Glacier last month.
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As a quack -I agree with RichJP - this does not sound like HAPE, HACE or AMS. I have some sympathy because I get some altitude effects, but only if I sleep at >3000m
It is unusual to get altitude sickness at the altitudes you are at, you can get some altitude effects. Not necessarily the same.
There are lung conditions and cardiac conditions (valve problems and shunts) which could make it happen, but most commercial planes are pressurised to a level equivalent to about 2500m+. How do you feel on them? You don't have sickle cell or thallasamia? (I don't know your ethnicity)
Nose Bleeds - lots of people get at altitude or in dry and over heated chalet/hotel rooms at altitude.
Energy - the atmospheric Oxygen partial pressure and ( above a certain altitude) your maximal oxygen saturation of your blood, as well as your total volume of O2 you can get into your system in any given minute will reduce as you go higher and you will be aware of it and more knackered when you do things espescially at 2500m plus, but that is pretty normal.
Dehydration - common in cold dry air and on exercise - caffeine not a brilliant idea, although it can treat mild asthma!
I think you need to get your GP to check your lungs/peak flow/spirometry and listen to your heart for any strange noises, drink more water and push less hard at altitude.
The only "alternative" remedy that is much use is Coca leaves... The conventional prophylaxis for AMS is acetazolamide, but I would not usually expect to prescribe it to someone at these altitudes, espescially if they are sleeping below 2000m
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You know it makes sense.
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stoatsbrother, Not that I would expect to take them to such a high place to sleep in the near future, are children at any more risk at high altitudes, and if taking them to such altitudes for any length of time would it be worth seeking a medical opinion before taking them?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, No... probably less at risk if anything. I would only expect to have to discuss these issues with someone going to <3500m if they had known significant lung disease (not usually asthma), congenital heart disease, heart failure or a major haematological problem. I think you would mostly need to be in the Andes or Himalayas to really need acetazolamide.
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Poster: A snowHead
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stoatsbrother, I agree that the symptoms we experience at normal Alpine altitudes are not life-threatening, nor are they really 'altitiude sickness', but a lot of us experience sleep disturbance, nose bleeds, coughs and general malaise, which can't always be put down to alcohol. perhaps my symptoms (stayed at 1500m) were something else, although I don't have asthma and it wasn't asthmatic type symptoms. I don't have congenital heart disease, although eldest son who suffered badly our first ski trip, and on our dog-sledding trip in Banff, was born with a ventricular septal defect, which closed naturally. He also has pollen-induced asthma, so perhaps there is a link there too. I make sure he is well hydrated, but now he's 18 he seems to prefer 1664 to water
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stoatsbrother, Thanks. Your response is a bit of a worry so I will see my GP. I am a white male, irsih descent age 53 and failry fit for my age. No health problems at all really (so far). I have never been aware of symptoms on planes.
Can I take any comfort from the fact that as soon as I cone down and rest I am ok, and after a few days I feel fine even at altitude ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We stayed at 1350m (so not real height I grant you). Since the beginning of December I've been coughing, and choking on muck. I've been through 3 courses of antibiotics, and 3 types of asthma puffers (though I swear I haven't got asthma). I went up the mountain, and haven't hardly coughed since I got there. mind you didn't they used to send TB suffers up mountains for treatment? It actually seemed to cure my asthma like symptons rather than exacerbate them!!
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micky, I think so. Some people may be more distressed by falls in their oxygen saturation than others, we see this a lot in various clinical situations. Don't worry too much. You may be just underestimating the effects of altitude on exercise capacity? But the web ain't a good way of giving medical advice and I have probably said way too much already... An interesting trial might be to see how you felt if you were at 3000m doing nothing.
Helen Beaumont, I agree, but we kind of assume these days that we can go anywhere and do anything, and get rather annoyed when our bodies show us we are adapted to live in a fairly limited environment and that some people are better than others at coping with the extremes of this envelope. I am not sure I would over-medicalise this, and would tend to reserve treatment and diagnostic labels for AMS, HAPE and HACE, although I coughed up blood for a few days one year in the Rockies - which worried me a bit.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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micky, On my first day in LDA in Dec we went straight up on the glacier. Sitting in the restaurant quietly drinking plenty of fluid we all had pulse rates over 110 after sitting for a while and I could feel my heart and breathing trying to compensate for the altitude - which I hadn't really thought about and actually tried quite hard to ignore. I didn't feel great, but was OK to ski very gently (I don't yet ski any other way!) that day. Felt improvement once we got back down to around 2500. Better day 2 and by day 3 felt pretty acclimatised. I suffer from cold induced asthma (tho mild and treated) and would say that while stoatsbrother's advice to see your doc is obviously the thing to do, to me they do not feel the same. Also got the mild nose blood loss which persisted for a while after we got home. I think the advice about the headache is pretty important - which dehydration will also cause. So if you got a headache and were well hydrated - which as everyone has said you want to be hence caffeine is a mixed blessing - I think you would need to move down the mountain pretty quick. Hope the doc doesn't find anything then at least you will know its just 'normal' for you!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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micky, I had AMS at Tignes in November. didn't recognise it at first (thought I was just unfit and hung-over  ) Skied like a complete gonk. We were only there 3 days and being November went straight up to 3500 on the glacier and stayed there.
Did some web research (and asked around on here  ) and what emerged was, fast ascents are bad (so shooting up the funicular in 7 minutes didn't help), exertion is bad (so having to walk uphill to get to the pistes didn't help either), dehydration is VERY bad, (didn't drink enough water, should be something like a litre every couple of hours), and staying high for extended periods is bad (spent the day at 3500, slept at 2100). In combination these resulted in AMS for me.
Went back at Christmas, and apart from sleeping at 2100, changed everything above. Drank much more water, rode chair lifts and skied down, stayed 'low' for the first couple of days, (still drank beer though!). Result was no AMS at all.
Best advice I can give would be to drink plenty of water, phase in going high, maybe ski the lower stuff for the first couple of days, don't stay up there all day, and try to stay (sleep) below 1800 if possible. HTH
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Why does the altitude cause dehydration - I can understand a cold snowy environment being low in humidity and possibly causing a certain amount of dehydration as a result, but does the height per se cause dehydration?
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Megamum, I believe it is because low pressure air (and pressure drops with altitude) doesn't hold as much moisture as high pressure air. This is why clouds form on mountain tops. Anyhow, the higher you go the 'dryer' the air. No doubt someone better informed than I will give you the full picture
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My layman's understanding of the dehydration problem is as follows:
Our bodies need moisture and at sea level we take moisture from the air we breathe. The higher we go the less oxygen there is in the air and therefore less moisture available. Our bodies then take the extra moisture needed from the water already stored within our bodies.
My experience again is based largely on high altitude trekking where you can be walking at altitude all day in cool or cold temperatures and although you may not even break into a sweat, which could also happen in some circumstances skiing, you can still dehydrate because the body is taking moisture from within.
The mistake that some people can make is to believe that because they are not sweating they do not need to top up with extra fluids, whereas dehydration will slowly occur at altitude even if you took a day's rest.
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I'm no doctor but my understanding is that you won't get altitude sickness simply by spending 30 minute bursts of time at 3000m, then skiing back down to 1500-2000m. You need to be up there a long time, i.e. 12+ hours! No offence but it sounds like a lack of fitness combined with a below average tolerance to reduced oxygen levels.
I have experienced mild altitude sickness in the Himalayas: headache, inability to sleep, breathlessness. For me they passed after two or three days. I did read somewhere that a certain percentage of people can never acclimatise to high altitude, don't know if that's true though...
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