 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It says
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| with the types of challenge they would normally only find in distant locations such as Europe and North America |
I was up in Serre Chevalier last week queuing for one full hour to see 200 French chlidren given priority to board the only button lift up the mountain from the Briancon side. That could be the challenge the article referring to, otherwise a mountain is just a mountain I would have thought.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd say this news about Chinese ski development is very ominous. Without wishing to expess any prejudice about US capital in particular, why is internal investment being invited or encouraged? What environmental controls are being exercised? Is this just another pollution fest, or will these new Chinese ski resorts show a more enlightened and holistic approach to skiing than their western counterparts?
It's time the globe started waking up to the air pollution impact of skiing generally. We are a significant element of dumping CO2 into the atmosphere. The future of skiing hangs in the balance of the climate.
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David Goldsmith,
I am associated with an electricity-related industry and can tell you the majority of the power plants has an efficiency in the region of 35 to 40%.
That means we are dumping at least 60% of energy in the form of wasted heat into the atmosphere, principally via the sea.
I don't see our global warming problem being solved by people stopping skiing.
People need heat in cold climate and cooling in hot climate, water supply, food consumption, servives deliveries, telephone, TV.....that all point to more and more use of energy. There are still a huge amount of population in many countries who don't have running water, electricity etc and they would want the facilities given half the chance.
Round up every skier and shoot them at the heads isn't won't solve the climate change problem. Remembering too those poor cross country skiers have nothing to do with our problem here and are innocent victims.
I wonder how would the Chinese react to our view here.
You guys has 1200km piste in Dolomites, 200 chairlifts in 3 Vallees and hundreds skiing resorts dotted the French, Swiss, Itaian and Austrian Alps. Now we want to build just a decent size resort in China and you say we are causing global warming? What chance do we have if we start making nuclear bombs now after Iran?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Quick note on the Chinese - although they are going through massive development, they are doing so using far more modern technologies than Europe and the US were at a similar period in their development. A lot of the potential for disasterous pollutions is being over-stated simply by taking the amount of pollution we caused and using a multiplication factor based on the size of the Chinese population. We may well find that their ski resorts are a lot more eco-friendly than resorts in Europe and US.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I'd say this news about Chinese ski development is very ominous. |
I won't be losing any sleep about it.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I'd say this news about Chinese ski development is very ominous. |
I'm afraid you're very late coming to the party, David.
There're already numerous small ski resorts in China. This is just one more, albeit a somewhat bigger one.
You sound like you want to blame the US "capitalist" for getting the Chinese started on this pollution path. The reality being the Chinese are already way down that path and the US capitals are just jumping onto the bandwagon as quickly as they can. Britain is one of the largest and earliest to partner with the Chinese when that market first opened up.
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David Goldsmith, Now that the Chinese are making so many skis they need somewhere local to practice.
I think as regard pollution, skiing is the least of China's worries.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not levelling a "blame the Chinese" or "blame the Yanks" argument. The atmosphere is global and the solution to this catastrophe for mankind (also global) can only be global agreements.
In the meantime, it might help if ski resort development was locked down until it's proven to be CO2 neutral by whatever means.
It's absurd to argue that skiing isn't the problem, or is a negligible part of the problem. The solution to the threat to snow and skiing starts with us, here and now.
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David Goldsmith, what catastrophe?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
In the meantime, it might help if ski resort development was locked down until it's proven to be CO2 neutral by whatever means. |
Tell that to the Iranian about "locking down" their nuclear weapon developement!
It's laughable to wish to "locked down" any developement by the underdeveloped country so the developed country can continue to enjoy their high standard of living build on pass polutions.
It didn't work with nuclear weapon. It won't work for ski resorts either. Or for that matter, running water, home heating, private cars, etc.
Get over it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, what catastrophe? |
Not necessarily a catastrophe for the Stockbroker Belt. I'm referring to millions of people who could be flooded from their lands or displaced from growing deserts etc.
Surrey should be OK.
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Can't see the link with global warming...
This resort is great news for those who would use it, i.e. wealthy Chinese, and a few western tourists and expats. It also provides jobs for locals so they will be winners too. Some of the scenery in the Tian Shan mountains is truly spectacular. I for one would take a trip to Urumqi if the price was right, plus it's just half a day's drive to the Taklamakan desert, the world's second-largest desert, AKA "The place of certain death".
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You know it makes sense.
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David Goldsmith, "could" is a good word.
Why should deserts grow? If less H20 is locked up as ice, there should be more of it available in liquid form to help green stuff grow.
As for flooding, mean sea level is rising fairly predictably by about 3mm / year. Fairly easy to plan for. On 26th December 2004, sea level at various points around the Indian Ocean was raised by a few metres with only minutes notice. Perhaps 250,000 people were killed. Now that's a catastrophe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman, you're obviously at liberty to follow any theories about deserts you wish. I defer to the International Panel on Climate Change and the predictions of UN-related bodies which warn of catastrophic effects for low-lying land and land adjacent to deserts.
The construction of new ski resorts isn't conducive to solving the problem - very much the opposite.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| The construction of new ski resorts isn't conducive to solving the problem - very much the opposite. |
Nor are new SUVs and new houses.
And for that matter, the running of EXISTING ski lifts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| laundryman.............I defer to the International Panel on Climate Change......... |
Hmm
| Wickpedia wrote: |
| Stephen McIntyre, an IPCC reviewer on the IPCC AR4, found that portions of the report were based on unpublished data. When he attempted to obtain this data, the IPCC threatened to remove his accreditation as an IPCC expert reviewer. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, plenty other scientists out there totally disagree with the IPCC on climate change
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| abc wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| The construction of new ski resorts isn't conducive to solving the problem - very much the opposite. |
Nor are new SUVs and new houses.
And for that matter, the running of EXISTING ski lifts. |
Nor are new holiday complexes, golfing complexes in the Med, sports centres, health clubs, hospitals or indeed anything else associated with a growing population,
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well, yes, everything's going to have to be accounted for, with a lot of non-essential stuff shut down or taxed out of existence. Things are very very serious.
I live in a city where - taking a casual look straight out of an internet cafe window - 50% of car use could easily be switched to bikes. It's nuts.
News broke today of a fancy new multi-million-dollar hotel for Verbier in Switzerland ... for future grass-skiing?
What is the CO2 reduction strategy of the international ski industry? Where is the leadership?
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The IPCC relies on predictions of impending catastrophe to keep going.
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David Goldsmith,
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| What is the CO2 reduction strategy of the international ski industry? Where is the leadership? |
But the ski "industry" is not just one thing. Surely the lift companies will come under the same umbrella as any other business/industry that is being incentivised towards being carbon neutral? Another part of the industry concerns travel - and the airlines are already under pressure to green up (well, the governments are taking more money off them anyway). The ski and boot and clothing manufacturers come under the manufacturing industry umbrella. I don't think there is one "ski industry" - it's a whole multitude of industries that should already have carbon reduction strategies in place.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ......... Things are very very serious......... |
Not I admit very very serious - but even so, very serious cats.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
laundryman, you're obviously at liberty to follow any theories about deserts you wish. I defer to the International Panel on Climate Change and the predictions of UN-related bodies which warn of catastrophic effects for low-lying land and land adjacent to deserts.
The construction of new ski resorts isn't conducive to solving the problem - very much the opposite. |
And you're at liberty to defer to whatever authority you wish. I have the benefit of a scientific education and feel able to examine scientific propositions from first principles.
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I'd have thought that a fairly simple solution for people with a Hairshirt Tendancy would be to follow David's lead and give up skiing. The rest of us can take whatever day-to-day actions to reduce our carbon footprint, but without cutting off our noses, and hope that global initiatives to address properly the problem of increasing carbon emissions will happen sooner rather than later. I won't worship at the alter of tokenism and curtail a major part of my life just because it makes some people feel good about how much 'green' they're advocating.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 5-04-07 20:34; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well you certainly worship at the alter of phraseology, Rob!
I've certainly not given up skiing ... I just do a lot less, by rail only. But that's not the point.
The point is that we have to universally drastically reduce the emissions and suck a lot of other CO2 out of the atmosphere. Unless the scientists are inexplicably wrong.
This week's Time magazine has a lot about all this, for those interested.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| The point is that we have to universally drastically reduce the emissions and suck a lot of other CO2 out of the atmosphere. |
And drastically reducing the number of 'skier days' around the world will contribute how much to carbon emission reduction? I'd be happy to take drastic action if I knew that it was having a dramatic improvement to the rate of carbon emissions, but I see no quantifiable evidence that what you propose with regard to skiing will make anything more than a token difference. As saikee suggested earlier, the significant part of the problem lies elsewhere, so I'd advocate fixing the big things before fiddling around at the edges of the problem.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 5-04-07 20:01; edited 1 time in total
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Well you certainly worship at the alter of phraseology, Rob!
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Coming from someone who seems to have an interest in journalism should I take that as a compliment? 
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| The point is that we have to universally drastically reduce the emissions and suck a lot of other CO2 out of the atmosphere. Unless the scientists are inexplicably wrong. |
Have to, or what? That is a very unscientific statement.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Goldsmith, Would you prefer Chinese skiiers to fly to America or Europe? Or is skiing only allowed to be a Caucasian sport?
However I tend to agree about your general concern about global warming, bikes in cities etc. I certainly think there should be VAT and duty on aviation fuel and am willing to pay the extra.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If we run out of oil David will shoot us for cutting wood down to make fire because that creates CO2 too.
Every human being breath in oxygen and pumps out CO2. May be another world war to wipe out half the population will satisfy the green lobbyists.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ...............I've certainly not given up skiing ... I just do a lot less........ |
They seek him here, they seek him there,
Those snowheads seek him everywhere.
Is he in Tamworth or in Iran?
That damned elusive FISHerman.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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What are the implications for climate change of people leaving PC's switched on 24 hours a day, in order to deliver multiple spurious posts about climate change to the internet? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This whole thing was explained in very simple and logical terms by a fellow member of the SCGB environment group a couple of years ago (he is a scientist):
The world has a finite amount of carbon. It can't be created or destroyed. Some of it is in the atmosphere, some is in live plants. Some is in dead wood - maybe furniture. Some is entering the atmosphere as it transfers from the 'inert' (dead wood, unburned coal, timber, crude oil etc) into CO2.
A vast amount remains locked under the earth's crust, safe until burnt.
The problem is that we're converting far too much 'inert' carbon into greenhouse gases.
I can't believe there are still people in the skiing community who either want to bury their heads in the powder over this, or maybe just don't care what we leave for future generations.
A highly important report from the IPCC is in its very final finishing stages as we discuss this today. So, we'll have more to chew on shortly.
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| achilles wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ...............I've certainly not given up skiing ... I just do a lot less........ |
They seek him here, they seek him there,
Those snowheads seek him everywhere.
Is he in Tamworth or in Iran?
That damned elusive FISHerman. |
What's all that crap about?
I've asked you about five times to withdraw a personal attack which insinuated that I'd demanded money from snowHeads. Please now acknowledge that it was false, and stop these pathetic personal jibes. Stop behaving like a gnome.
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brian
brian
Guest
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| the significant part of the problem lies elsewhere, so I'd advocate fixing the big things before fiddling around at the edges of the problem. |
Absolutely. You're never going to seriously affect the level of global CO2 emissions by relying on the goodwill of individuals to get on their bikes or stopping going skiing. Just as poverty in Africa was never going to be solved by a few pop concerts and jumble sales.
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brian
brian
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
What's all that crap about?
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I'd imagine it's about the fact that you spend an inordinate amount of time posting on a skiing forum but you never actually discuss any skiing you've done (well not in the last 30 years anyway).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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brian, Oh really. So the world's full of pure cynics who won't do a thing until some government tells them what to do?
Well, actually, hundreds of thousands of young people - inspired by (Sir) Bob Gelfof - went to those gigs because they genuinely cared.
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| brian wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
What's all that crap about?
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I'd imagine it's about the fact that you spend an inordinate amount of time posting on a skiing forum but you never actually discuss any skiing you've done (well not in the last 30 years anyway). |
Isn't that 100% irrelevant to the subject at hand - the ski industry and the future of snow?
brian, lay off the personal stuff. It's unnecessary.
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FAQ
May I point out that the same gloom & doom merchants have long been predicting that the oil and gas reserves will run out by 2030! so surley it is in everybodys interest to use as much as possible to speed things up to end this global whatever. 
