 Poster: A snowHead
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(with apologies to Arno for bastardising his thread title)
So, you have the perfect chance to help someone who is lacking in skills to improve.
How do you go about getting to a solution?
I'm not a ski instructor, but I have tried to help others improve in areas of their lives (sometimes skiing, sometimes music, sometimes computers, ...)
Rather than going for a teaching example, I'm going to go with a business example (since providing business solutions is what pays for my ski holidays)
Here are the steps I take when an opportunity presents itself.
1. Ask the client what they want.
2. Ask the client what they currently do.
3. Observe what the client currently does.
(these three may occur in a different order, but all three are necessary)
We now have their actual skills, their perceived skills and their desired skills.
4. (If there are no constraints) Can I give them what they desire?
Frequently the desire is way beyond the reality of their budget/timescale/etc, so...
5. Can I think of a solution that could be satisfactory within the constraints?
6. Discuss the solution options with the client, to reach a mutual agreement on what should be done. This involves discussing where they actually are, where they desire to be, and what you think is achievable within the constraints.
7. Once mutually agreed, then begin the process of changing them from actual to better.
8. Throughout the process, continual refining of the solution need to take place, based on the speed of improvement, and external issues that may not have been apparent at the start.
9. At the end of the process, go through the original desired skills, the first agreed solution, and the actual solution. Point out the differences, and explain what should happen next if they want to go further. If possible, whet their appetite.
Is any of that relevant to good teaching?
What would you do?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 12-09-07 10:08; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, I think all of that is relevant, although sometimes 6 and 7 can be tricky because the client (in this case me) might not have a detailed understanding of what is possible/desirable/most obvious next step. I had four instructors last season, a couple of BASI Trainers, a BASI Grade 1 and a former WC/Olympic racer. I think in their own way they met just about all of the steps you outlined. Some explicity, some implicitly, some on-snow, some off-snow, and often in a different order. But overall that is a good description of the interaction between us.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, yes, 6 & 7 are the difficult ones, but they are what seperates out an average solution provider from a good one.
A poor solution provider will talk about how the client's ideas are impossible, and will be negative about them. A better one will not talk about how impossible the ideas are, but about how other ideas are better and more appropriate. To do that takes a level of understanding, a lot of patience and good debating skills - the ones where neither side feels they are in an argument, and neither side feels like they have "won" or "lost" at the end of it.
It's not up to the client to have a detailled understanding of possible/most obvious next step - that is the solution provider's job. Then they need to be able to present that as a possibility, and discuss from there.
At no point should the client feel like they are being told what they are getting, or that they are being dictated to. They should always perceive themselves to be driving the solution - even when they are not.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
rob@rar, yes, 6 & 7 are the difficult ones, but they are what seperates out an average solution provider from a good one.
A poor solution provider will talk about how the client's ideas are impossible, and will be negative about them. A better one will not talk about how impossible the ideas are, but about how other ideas are better and more appropriate. |
Not for all clients, surely? Have to say I prefer to be told without much beating around the bush what's right, what's wrong and what's possible about my skiing. Obviously in a professional manner, but nevertheless quite forthright. There's a limited timeframe for lessons, and indulging in too much social niceties just gets in the way of learning for me. A case in point is a session I had last season with a BASI Trainer when I was interested in his opinion about my realistic ambitions for technical modules up the BASI ladder. After a very thorough two hour assessment he told me what was going to be doable for me now, what I'd need to work on, and what was impossible for me. I appreciated his honesty and the fact that he didn't fudge the answer.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
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but I have tried to help others improve in areas of their lives (sometimes skiing, sometimes music, sometimes computers, ...)
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Completely off-topic - and do feel free to start an Apres thread if you feel like answering at all, no worries if not - but I would be fascinated to know how you help others improve in music.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle, playing with them, listening to them, showing them how to play things (sometimes showing the "right" way, sometimes showing the easier way), encouraging them, learning with them... I could go into examples, but if you want an apres thread, go for it, and I'll post. A lot of it actually works like the points listed above.
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rob@rar, you can be forthright without being blunt about someone's skiing -
"I doubt if you'll ever win an Olympic gold, but we could get you placing in the EoSB race" sounds a lot better to me than "you'll never make a racer" (this suggestion works best for people our age. When it comes to kids, we should encourage them even more - because they just might win an Olympic gold)
With the limited timeframe of lessons, which is a big constraint on what is possible (see point 5), use the ride on a lift to discuss ideas (or when standing in the lift queue, if there is one.)
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Wear The Fox Hat, sounds like a good intuitive process but that level of verbal discussion may not be entirely suitable for say a one hour lesson...It kinda depends on learner type but you are very right in that it is most important to understand clearly what the client wants and then try to provide that in a safe, fun way...
I struggle to take on more than a few things when receiving instruction and sometimes i think instructors try to do too many drills or give too much information during lessons.
The follow up at the end is always important for me as well as a learner.. I always try to get an objective summary and a few tips or pieces of advice i can take away.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
rob@rar, you can be forthright without being blunt about someone's skiing -
"I doubt if you'll ever win an Olympic gold, but we could get you placing in the EoSB race" sounds a lot better to me than "you'll never make a racer" (this suggestion works best for people our age. When it comes to kids, we should encourage them even more - because they just might win an Olympic gold)
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Sure that works, but so does "BASI Grade 2 if you work hard on some things, but to be honest you won't reach Grade 1 technical". That seemed to me to be a fair, professional assessment, told to me succinctly without raising undue hopes or crushing reasonable ambition. I didn't need any alternatives to think about in case I was disappointed to be told I wouldn't reach Grade 1 (I wasn't, thinking about Grade 2 was a surprise) so just the unvarnished truth in a unambiguous manner worked for me.
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I would rename this thread - "Learning techniques - what are they? And their application to ski instruction". Understand the way the learner learns, then you can adapt to the apropriate teaching style.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
Wear The Fox Hat,
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but I have tried to help others improve in areas of their lives (sometimes skiing, sometimes music, sometimes computers, ...)
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Completely off-topic - and do feel free to start an Apres thread if you feel like answering at all, no worries if not - but I would be fascinated to know how you help others improve in music. |
Throw out any James Blunt CDs for a start 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, to me it sounds like a similar thing - you have been given an achievable target - BASI 2. If you had just been told "you'll never be good enough to be an instructor", then there was no positive outcome for you. (basing the "instructor" on the comments here about how anything below Grade 1 is worthless )
beanie1, good point. I'll do that, and then maybe we'll get more instructor insight/input - although the point is not about how learners learn, but about how teachers should teach. Yes, we can discuss learning styles, but the teacher will have a teaching style as well, and I was kinda hoping we'd get some input from teachers as well as students as to some basic steps in their style of teaching.
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| Quote: |
| how learners learn, but about how teachers should teach |
Wear The Fox Hat, I think they are hand in glove and that you need to add understanding the type of learner the student is as part of the evaluation the instructor must do in addition to determining their wants and needs.
we see here all the time some peeps are very technical, others baffled by nomenclature, some are visual learners, some have disabilities etc. etc.
teaching skiing you need to be able to modify your teaching style to suit the learner type, BASI is very big on this for instance.
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, yes I agree, but I think there has been quite a bit of discussion in other threads about different learners, but I was hoping for teaching concepts here - cause no matter what my learning style is, if the teacher can't teach effectively, then I'm not going to learn. (or, to put it another way, if the Solution Provider cannot provide a solution, then the client's time and money are being wasted)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wear The Fox Hat, perhaps but teaching concepts must be pupil centric IMO.
Veeight raised a very good point regarding the "movement based" appoach to ski teaching versus "skills development" which sounds more of what you are after on this thread.....
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Poster: A snowHead
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The Spectrum of Teaching Styles - Mosston & Ashworth, 1986
1.Style A Command - teacher makes all decisions
2.Style B Practice - Students carry out teacher-prescribed tasks
3.Style C Reciprocal - Students work in pairs: one performs, the other provides feedback
4.Style D Self-check - Students assess their own performance against criteria
5.Style E Inclusion - Teacher planned. Student monitors own work.
6.Style F Guided Discovery - Students solve teacher set movement problems with assistance
7.Style G Divergent - Students solve problems without assistance from the teacher
8.Style H Individual - Teacher determines content. Student plans the programme.
9.Style I Learner Initiated - Student plans own programme. Teacher is advisor.
10.Style J Self Teaching - Student takes full responsibility for the learning process.
BASI uses this. A grade 3 is expected to be able to demonstrate the lower ones - can't remember up to which level exactly. These styles are more appropriate for beginners, intermediates, which most grade 3s will spend most of their time teaching. The other end of the spectrum is more appropriate to instructor / athlete training.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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beanie1, thanks, useful post. Does the BASI manual go into detail on teaching styles/strategies?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think No. 7 (guided discovery) suits me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Where's the one where the coach heaps derision on the student for cocking up?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, the BASI general manual goes into a lot about Mosston & Ashworth Teaching Styles. The manual is worth reading before any courses but they typically just hand it out on the first day which is stupid IMO. See if you can get one sent to you early....
A good reference book I like is "inner skiing" which kinda works on #4.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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ALL a good reference that you can download is the Canadian Ski Instructors manual. This is on their site so i dont think anything is wrong with posting a link. I am sure V8 would approve learning from our cousins from across the pond
http://www.snowpro.com/csia/e/downloads.html got to page 5 and you can download the 2003/05 manual
It is very interesting to compare the CSIA to the BASI system and they are more practical in the way it treats learner types and explains skills acquisition instead of movements and drills.
I also really like the chapters on teaching children which doesnt appear at all in the BASI info and is a real weakness in the BASI methods IMO. They concentrate on learner types in esoteric terms as opposed to children, nervous adults, male vs female physiology etc....
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| skimottaret wrote: |
rob@rar, the BASI general manual goes into a lot about Mosston & Ashworth Teaching Styles. The manual is worth reading before any courses but they typically just hand it out on the first day which is stupid IMO. See if you can get one sent to you early....
A good reference book I like is "inner skiing" which kinda works on #4. |
I like Inner Skiing. I read it every now and again just to remind myself about a few things it says.
I've booked my BASI course with one of their registered providers rather than directly with BASI itself - do you think that it will be BASI that sends me the manual or the school school (ICE)?
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skimottaret, thanks for the CSIA link. I've ordered their current manual last week, so hoping it doesn't take months to get delivered.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, supposed to be the school and they are supposed to send in advance but New gen didnt. I tried ordering a CSIA manual but got an error message did you call? also the shipping was pretty steep....
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rob@rar, supposed to be the school and they are supposed to send in advance but New gen didnt. I tried ordering a CSIA manual but got an error message did you call? also the shipping was pretty steep.... |
Didn't get an error message, but will check my credit card statement to see if they have taken the payment. Yes, shipping was extortionate but I was very keen to get hold of the CSIA material.
I've just emailed ICE to ask if I can have the manual before the course.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wow. I've just had a look at the download of the manual, and I have to say that without the pictures and diagrams that are in the printed manual, even my eyes glazed over skimming the pdf!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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veeeight, do you have a second hand copy of the manual you want to sell
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight, i will try to order one from CSIA and pay the silly postage then....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Perhaps yourself and david@mediacopy should get in on Rob's order, and have a combined order!
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Poster: A snowHead
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A little random, but here's a story I frequently share about instructors fixing people's skiing...... 
Symptom: Beginner snowplough turns. Skier is using shoulders to initiate the turn.
First stage - most members of public will try and cure the symptom. So they will say "stop turning those shoulders".
Second stage - newly qualified instructor will say - aha! - the turning of the shoulders is merely a symptom, what is actually the cause that is the skier is not turning their feet/legs. So newly qualified instructor sets about prescribing drills to improve pivoting.
Third stage - more seasoned instructor will say - aha! Very good, young Jedi. Lack of pivoting is indeed a cause of why the skier is hurling their shoulders around, but, before they can pivot, they need to get off the tails of the skis! Go back up the checklist, and fix their stance and balance first, get them centred (centered) !!! *That* is the root cause.
Fourth stage - old hack instructor - aha! Excellent work my friends. All very valid reasoning. Now look up at earlier in the turn, or even at the finish of the previous turn. Tell me what you see....................
*The above is a very real scenario, I see it all the time*
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| veeeight wrote: |
Tell me what you see....................
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What would they see?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They would see something happening at the finish of the last turn that had an impact as to why the skier was rotating at the start of the next turn, thus the root cause would be whatever it was at the end of the previous turn!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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veeeight, stop that - it all sounds way too familiar.... I'll start to think you have been talking to my instructors behind my back!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight, so if you had a "teaching technique", i.e. not a skiing-specific way of teaching, but one that could be applied to other subjects, what would that consist of? What is your mental checklist of things you go through with the client?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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What, you want me to give away my methods?
It's more of a coaching and mentoring approach. Make sure we're both agreed on the objective (what is it we want to achieve today). Agree on the hard and soft indicators of success of that objective. Get a brief history of previous attempts at that objective. Probe what they discovered or learnt from those attempts. etc.
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veeeight, do you teach new or novice skiers?
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Yes. although not in great numbers. Mainly privates.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Yes. although not in great numbers. Mainly privates. |
How much variation do you see in aptitude and approach to learning amongst your (occasional) beginners? Do they generally follow a similar pattern, or wide variation?
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rob@rar, What you need is the new CSIA manual, with the leaner development model chapter 
I see a very very very wide variation. The biggest factor in their aptitude and approach is their mental state. Why are they there? Those that are there because their other half's are already skiing tend not to have a positive attitude to the sport, those that are relaxed, no hidden agendas, show little apprehension jump in with both feet and progress well.
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FAQ
