 Poster: A snowHead
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i am taking my two teenage sons and a mate to ischgl in a couple of weeks for the first time, they are all competent snowboarders, but are more used to the gladed off piste that you find in canada and using the bumps etc just off the sides of runs, as i have no chance of keeping up with them and spend most of my time meeting them at the lifts or for lunch, i want to make sure they are safe.
they are well aware of the dangers of off piste boarding and will not go there, but how safe is it in the just off piste areas next to the pistes and in stuff between two runs, what is the best advice for them 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mmm....
potential hazards include hidden rocks, crevasses if you are on a glacier, avalanche from above, tree stumps/roots, possible invalidation of insurance policy etc etc.
However it is still often safer to be just off piste than on piste with the ensuing carnage on a busy slope.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think avalanche fatality statistics show that the largest number of deaths occur near the piste and involve strong skiers/boarders who are relatively inexperienced as far as snow/avalanche awareness is concerned. Remember, there's no such thing as "just" or "a little bit" off piste. You're either on piste or you're not. Perhaps buying/renting avalanche kit and spending a little bit of time to familiarise yourself with it would be a worthwhile investment for your family?
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Make sure they all carry a transceiver, shovel and probe. These can be hired. The avalanche risk is very high at the moment in Europe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I think avalanche fatality statistics show that the largest number of deaths occur near the piste and involve strong skiers/boarders who are relatively inexperienced as far as snow/avalanche awareness is concerned. |
I've seen this bandied about quite a bit, but isn't it true that there are far greater numbers of skiiers "just" off piste than there are deep in the backcountry. If so a higher number of deaths would be anticipated.
However, I suppose that a large prortion of fatal avalanches are triggered by other skiiers which makes "just" off piste more dangerous than the backcountry.
I hate arguing with myself. 
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Generally many people who ski "just off piste" have no beacons / shovels / probes - and most importantly basic mountain awareness.
Especially seems to apply to brits abroad in places like Tignes etc. Many people seem to think that little bowl between 2 blue runs must be safe - however the stats on www.pistehors.com would indictate otherwise.
At the end of the day you are either "on" or "off" - there is no grey area.
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In Europe you have a right to expect the piste to have been made safe before it is opened to the public. Off piste you are responsible for making your own judgements about what is safe and what isn't - even 1 metre off piste.
In the US your responsibility for your own safety is inversely proportional to the amount u can afford to spend on a lawyer. That may be why they tend to clear everything within an area and then say, "outside this is nothing to do with us". But I think the difference in geology also tends to lead to these differing approaches.
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THere's just off-piste and just off-piste.
some is effectively avalanche controlled as, if it wasn't it would present a risk to pistes below - this should be safe (although consider rocks etc). Other areas could easily avalanche without threatening an open piste - this needs to be treated as back country. If you don't know enough to differentiate the two then you better treat it all as risky.
J
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how safe is 'just on piste' ? what about slaloming the piste poles..
in danger.. ahhh safe.. arrgghh in danger ahhh safe again..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Having followed at least one other thread on this topic, with a certain amount of concern, I asked an off piste guide this very question last week . He pointed to a bit of off piste cutting off a corner between two pistes meeting at right angles. The bit one might well ski to cut the corner included a steepish drop of about 10/12 feet, which many people would ski without a second thought, followed by a smaller 'up'. He pointed out that if the steep bit slipped after you'd skied down it you could be under a metre or more of snow, not a good place to be. You'd be about 3 metres off the piste.
I suppose that the chances of something like that happening are pretty small, and your plight would probably be seen and dealt with, but it made me realise that there's a lot of off piste within, say, 25m of a piste which could avalanche on to you if you were unlucky. I suspect that it doesn't take much to bury you enough for you to need assistance getting out.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think it was at the beginning of last season that somoene got caught out barely 5m off the Suisses piste in Courchevel and died AFAIR. They were pretty well directly under the chair lift too.
It wasn't the 5 metres between him and the piste that was the problem, it was the 1 metre between him and the surface 
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admin, yes, it was just after Xmas, IIRC.
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You know it makes sense.
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jedster, admin, if you follow this link to Pistehors you;ll find a story that relates to a fatility in Tignes: I'm sure from what I read elsewher that it occured no more than 10m from a piste, in view of the main Val Claret car park.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Boris,
| Quote: |
| Realise that this adds nothing to the debate, but thought I'd share it with you |
It does add to the debate as it shows how someone could easily end up in trouble skiing just the little bit between runs. And it's amazing how many "nasties" like big rocks, holes and trees are there just waiting to be covered by a couple of cm of snow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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appreciate all the warnings and advice, will keep them well in bounds and maybe get a guide to show us around for the first couple of days.
i think they have been spoiled by the glade runs you find in Canada which can give you a real sense of adventure without the risk of an avalanche 
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So hypothetical scenario, you collide with the fence at the side of the pisted run** catapult over the top and roll down the side off piste triggering an avalanche that traps you - is the insurance going to pay up? Did get to ** once and have been catapulted over obstacles in the past, so in theory possible.
Just thought I'd have a little stir.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To further stir it up, last week in La Plagne much of the normal 'near piste' had been pisted BUT the piste markers were still marking the original piste edge/line 
One could be pessimistic and say the piste's had been widened to accommodate the half term crowds......
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Neilski, Just to add to the caution, I was skiing in a white out / snow with my family above St MArtin de B on an easy red, and tempted by the powder went outside the piste marker - only 2-3m.
Next thing I knew was I was upside down in a snow filled hollow, from which it took me 15 mins to extricate myself. No-one saw me go over, and the family skied on to the bottom thinking I was speeding ahead as usual rather than adopting "careful dad" mode. I was full of snow and pretty cold by the time I got to the bottom, necessitating a long lunch (every cloud etc)
Salutory lesson learned, and I always carry a whistle now just in case.
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Megamum, who knows, it's insurance!
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Just a reminder that don't need to be very far under the snow before it becomes impossible to dig yourself out
This gentleman was spotted by a patroller, his legs were visible on the surface of the slide (snow has been excavated from under his legs at the time of the photograph).
This is some info about the Courchevel Avalanche mentioned above.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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if you cant see where you are going then dont go there.. going off piste is risky but lets face it once you get the hang of it you really want to do it..
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| petemillis wrote: |
| Boris, [It does add to the debate as it shows how someone could easily end up in trouble skiing just the little bit between runs. And it's amazing how many "nasties" like big rocks, holes and trees are there just waiting to be covered by a couple of cm of snow. |
Or a couple METRE of snow...
Something similar happened to my buddy some years back. He lost his edge at the side of the run (not a difficult one either) and shot into the woods, maybe 5 metre? He narrowly missed a tree but promptly disappeared into the tree well! Now I thought he's ahead and kept going all the way to the bottom. Then I started wondering where the heck he was...
A good 15 min. later he showed up, shaking from both cold and fear. It took him that long to crawl back out of that giant tree well full of soft snow. And all that time, no one saw him.
We went back up and skied back down to the spot. He pointed it out for me to see that little hollow on the snow surface next to the tree. No wonder no one came to help him. You just can see it.
Yeah, I worry about it myself. But it's a matter of managing risk. I see the odd as about the same as getting hit by a car while crossing the street.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="Neilski"]
| Quote: |
| they are well aware of the dangers of off piste boarding and will not go there, but how safe is it in the just off piste areas next to the pistes and in stuff between two runs, what is the best advice for them |
Unfourtunatly a Frenchman was killed recently in Tignes, cutting between two pistes, no more than 10 meters off piste.
| Quote: |
| Make sure they all carry a transceiver, shovel and probe. These can be hired. The avalanche risk is very high at the moment in Europe. |
Make sure they can also use them !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| if you cant see where you are going then dont go there.. |
That rules out going downhill on CairnGorm then! 
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In Lech (Austria) two seasons ago & right at the begininnig of the season two americans were killed skiing in an avalanche just 2 metres of the side of piste
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You know it makes sense.
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What about unpisted marked runs, aren't they avalanche protected but not patrolled?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Peter Ross, I think the itineries are marked, protected and patrolled, just not pisted. I hope so anyway!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Peter Ross, in St Anton, itineraries are avalanche controlled but not patrolled, according to the piste map. Last week, several appeared to be pisted as well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Peter Ross, this was the subject of a previous thread, but itinerary routes in Verbier are not avalanche protected, although you often see people skiing them without avalanche kit. Coincidentally I was talking to one of the guides about this yesterday in the pub, and he told me that the itinerary routes are assessed every morning, and closed if the avalanche risk is thought to be too high BUT even when they are open they still carry a higher risk since they are not made 'avalanche safe'. Obvious question is then why bother marking them at all? I think it's safer to treat them as off piste terrain and go properly equipped. The other problem is that other resorts do not necessarily have the same policy - obviously from richmond's posting St Anton has a different approach.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This last point about itinerary routes is worrying! I have skiied them in Verbier in the belief that they were avalanche safe. This is a serious issue, and I freely admit I didn't make much effort to investigate beforehand. But is it really too much to ask when paying over £150 for a lift pass that there might be some more info on the piste map? In this case just five words: "Itineraries are not avalanche controlled"..?
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BGA, I don't think it's necessarily true that St.Anton secures the itineraries. I have seen avalanches go down the slope under the Schindlergratbahn and straight over the path that brings you from Schindler back to the Schindler chair. On one occasion I was on that path a few seconds before a BIG avalanche went down over it. I was a bit shaken by that to say the least 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There must surely be local advice in an area - the hire shops, lift pass kiosks, even tourist information - would it be worth enquiring in a new area as to what was what in respect of these issues.
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Mike Lawrie, my recollection (only from last week but could easily be wrong) is that the St Anton piste map claims that itineraries are avalanched secured (which I suppose may mean no more than shutting them if things look dodgy). I'll check, although your experience would seem to be pretty definitive!
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xyzpaul, Just had a quick look at the piste map (time on my hands because the weather is appalling and hence no desire to ski) and it says on the back ski itineraries are 'marked, not maintained, not controlled, intended for experienced skiers'. So aside from having a few poles to show you the way down they should be considered off piste. The problem here is that virtually all the itineraries are lift accessible and I think people see a load of other skiers heading off that way and just follow. I've seen loads of people just on Tortin and Col de Gentianes way out of their depth in terms of skiing ability, never mind whether they have the appropriate avalanche kit or awareness. To be fair to Televerbier there are signs at the entry points to the itinerary routes stating that they are for expert skiers only.
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OK, so, I am in Verbier in a few weeks. .....
I am adventurous and if I see a piste that says experienced skiiers only I will have a go on the basis that the area is safe (in the context of on piste) but I need to be careful as the terrain may be challenging.
It looks like I should not however be heading to these marked areas that are really just marked off-piste routes unless/until I am aware of the risks and have taken the necessary precautions, have a guide etc.
This issue of 'just off piste' is very interesting because on other threads it is suggested that if you want to see if you are competent enough to deal with off-piste conditions then try a bit by the edge of the piste. Also there is a bit of snobbery in terminology when someone says they were off piste but were really 'between' pistes (so it does not count as being off piste).
It seems the dangers are quite real but not really realised being just off piste !!
As a side issue last week I thought I would whizz up bit of a bank on my board on the piste but to the side of the pisted (piste contained by trees either side), but the bank was really a small bank with a long hole/culvert running along side of the piste (probably caused by a snow drift) and a very steep almost vertical wall of snow. Needless to say I cleared the culvert and splattered face plant style in to the wall and fell back into the hole/culvert, bit of an effort to get out too, most undignified 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rayscoops, I would say that if you ski the itinerary routes in Verbier then you do not need a guide, but you do need to have avalanche equipment and the knowledge to use it. You should also be prepared and able to deal with mixed snow conditions, rocks and occasionally narrow traverses. If you follow the marker posts down then you are not going to fall off hidden cliffs, into crevasses or end up in blind ended couloirs with no way out - all possibilities in true 'backcountry' off piste skiing if you are not with a guide. The only piste in Verbier that is marked expert only is Mont Fort, and there you have the advantage of looking at what you will be skiing from the lift and if you don't fancy it you can always come back down in the lift.
Skiing in between the pistes is not really the same as off piste skiing, it's merely skiing in ungroomed snow. I would agree it's a good idea to play around in that sort of snow first to get a feel for what it's like but if you are going to get into off piste skiing then you need tuition, for technique, tactics and safety
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| BGA wrote: |
| Skiing in between the pistes is not really the same as off piste skiing, it's merely skiing in ungroomed snow. |
There are a few posts above which suggest that is not always true. It seems that there is scope for problems even a metre or two off the piste.
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FAQ
). The fact is that the near off piste can be just as dangerous as the far off piste, maybe even more so because of the number of inexperienced skiers (including myself) who choose to ski there.
