 Poster: A snowHead
|
Since the death of Tomas Olsson on the north face of Everest on May 16, two more climbers have died on the mountain. In terms of fatalities, the 2006 Everest season is now second only to the 1996 spring season, which claimed 12 lives.
... So far, six climbers have died on the north (Chinese) side, while three have died on the south side, plus one on the Lhotse face. However, the secretary General of the China Tibet Mountaineering Association, Zhang Mingxing, embarrassingly told Chinese news agency Xinhua today that only three mountaineers have died at the Chinese side of Everest this year. He named a Russian, French and a Brazilian climber, but forgot Tomas Olsson from Sweden, David Sharp from the UK and a 'name-less' Sherpa. This has led to speculation that the Association is out of control.
http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=2093
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
There's something very wrong here. I never thought that I'd hear a climber making decisions about triage whilst not being in imminent danger themselves and able to effect a rescue. On the face of this reporting, I'm beyond repulsed. If these reports are accurate David Sharp was murdered, he may have been party to his situation but to deny him aid is disgusting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
davidof, exactly.
But assuming the Telegraph story is accurate, what are these people doing on the summit pitches with insufficient oxygen, no recognised leader and no guides ????? Admin's suggestion that access from the Chinese side is out of control, in the sense that totally inappropriately managed and equipped 'teams' are being allowed to climb ad-lib, seems to be the underlying reason for several deaths.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
At 28,000ft the human body doesn't have the energy or the mental strength to bring someone down the mountain in any way, there is practically nothing that can be done for anyone at that height apart from literally watching them die. This is why the bodies up there can never be recovered.
If these climbers stand around and waste oxygen at this height they will very shortly be in the same situation.
A lot of people seem to be climbing this mountain without anywhere near the preparation they seem to need, and punish other climbers around them with their selfish risks, like what happened in May 96.
It seems to be a judge of money not climbing skills that make the final decisions on Everest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I seem to recall that it was virtually impossible to recover someone once in the death zone. Its not like you can stick them in Land Rover.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That is undoubtedly true, which is why the only people who should be up there are experienced high-altitude mountaineers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| I seem to recall that it was virtually impossible to recover someone once in the death zone. Its not like you can stick them in Land Rover. |
Why is it impossible to recover the bodies for burial?. By helicopter?. Is the terrain really difficult to do a drop?. I always hear similar reports but do not quite understand the reasons 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
I think the air is too thin for the helicopter blades to provide enough lift. In addition, it's obviously very hazardous to try to conduct a rescue / retrieval in that sort of environment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| hibernia wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| I seem to recall that it was virtually impossible to recover someone once in the death zone. Its not like you can stick them in Land Rover. |
Why is it impossible to recover the bodies for burial?. By helicopter?. Is the terrain really difficult to do a drop?. I always hear similar reports but do not quite understand the reasons |
A helicopter can just land at base camp at 18,000FT, it has no hope whatsoever at 28,000FT. At that height its a struggle to think right, and anybody above about 25,000 is already dying. People who go above this altitude take a huge risk, and nothing short of throwing them off the mountain will bring them down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Alex, thanks for that, but still not clear enough. Are you saying that a helicopter cannot fly at 28,000 feet?. Can the pilot not use oxygen?. Or is it the terrian at that height?.
All those bodies piled up must be a very eerie sight for the expeditions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alastair, I think this landing has been widely disputed. The previous world record was some 3000m less and that in itself had been a huge step.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I have to agree with Alex on this one. Whilst what the other teams did on Everest seems heartless, it was the correct decision in my opinion. David Sharp would seem to have committed suicide rather than be murdered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Kramer ... How do you deduce that David Sharp "committed suicide"? I very much doubt if that is correct.
Masque ... On what basis do you allege murder?
Let's seek facts, not jump to melodramatic conclusions.
Here's a report from Everest.net which deals with some of the factual and moral issues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, interesting. Seems the Nepalese CAA don't believe it happened but the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale say it did using GPS recordings from the helicopter. If he did do it, I feel sorry for him having his record challenged.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
David Goldsmith, Even I understood that "artistic license" was being used. Surely a clever fellow like you could have sussed out their intent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
hibernia- the reason the helicopter can't land that high is because the air is so thin(the higher you go the worse), and also it cannot carry much weight at all due to hardly any lift. It's pushing them way beyond thier design.
I think that people can make up thier own minds and not be questioned on this as its a different world up thier for them. It affects every sense your body has. Everyone that takes that step is aware of what they are doing, but seem to take the risks regardless, and it is in a situation where helping them is impossible, and in the'death zone' you really do need to take care of yourself, and if you don't you will not make it down. It seems the people that cause major problems, for example May 96, are the people that are unprepared and clearly do not have what they need to safely undertake the climb.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
... which is very different to committing suicide, or being murdered.
Perhaps David Sharp had some bad luck with his health or fitness?
Perhaps he was testing himself?
Perhaps we should judge him, and those on the mountain, fairly?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
David Goldsmith, in the article it states that he took two cannisters of oxygen up with him rather than five, suggesting that he intended to summit without oxygen, and combined this with not employing a guide, merely following a loose group with no leaders, all of which suggest to me that the main responsibility for his own death lies with himself. In that sense, I would say that his actions were suicidal in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
David Goldsmith, That's why I said if the reports are accurate. Yes it's bloody difficult to get people off mountains but it's not impossible and it's doubtful that the attempt to bring him down would put the passing teams in any more danger than their continued accent.
People can have focus but that's not to mitigate callousness.
On the basis of the limited reporting so far I'll stand by my original thought that it's murder.
I wonder how much the commercial sponsorship of some of these expeditions might influence decisions of this nature ... for the worse.
High altitude prepared helicopters are rare beasts and much modified from standard. They don't keep any on standby to pluck people out of the Himalayas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kramer - Yes, well. If someone truly intended to commit suicide (there's no such thing as unintended suicide) I think they'd do it more conventionally, and not go to the extremes and expense that David Sharp clearly invested.
I think you're using the word 'suicide' in an inappropriate way.
Let's judge this man fairly, on the basis of all available evidence.
Masque - I think it's too early to draw conclusions as to what the other climbers could or should have done in that situation. There are, presumably, ethical codes that climbers adopt in terms of trusting each other in given situations ... but I've no idea what they are.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 24-05-06 12:25; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Whatever, I don't see DG playing journalistic games here. The fact is that this young British guy has died, friends and members of his family could happen on this thread - it's visible to non-members - and if I were in their shoes and read comments along the above lines, coming from people who don't know David Sharp from Adam or indeed much about the actual circumstances theat led to his death, I would be pretty pissed off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Masque wrote: |
I wonder how much the commercial sponsorship of some of these expeditions might influence decisions of this nature ... for the worse.
|
Well, commercial expeditions are definitely under great pressure to put as many of their clients on the summit as possible. This inevitably causes unnecessary risks to be taken. This finanical relationship between guides and climbers has long been heavily criticised, and is discussed at length in "Into Thin Air", John Krakauer's account of the 1996 Everest disaster.
This clearly wasn't the case in David Sharp's case though, as he was climbing without a guide, and presumably making his own decisions. Sadly we'll never know what was going through his mind, so it's probably best not to make any assumptions, especially when we don't know the full facts what really happened.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
johno, My though is more to how much commercial sponsorship played a part in not rendering aid to a stricken climber no matter how foolish he may or may not have been.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Ok, I accept that my previous choice of words was inappropriate. What I was trying to get across more was that my understanding (purely theoretical) of climbing at that alttitude is that personal responsibility is paramount, and that it is more than likely impossible to rescue someone in difficulty from that alttitude, and so shouldn't (and mostly isn't) be relied on. Rather than blame his death on the others who passed him by, the responsibility must lie with the climber himself, which to be fair, he probably fully accepted before he set off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Well, commercial expeditions are definitely under great pressure to put as many of their clients on the summit as possible. This inevitably causes unnecessary risks to be taken. This finanical relationship between guides and climbers has long been heavily criticised, and is discussed at length in "Into Thin Air", John Krakauer's account of the 1996 Everest disaster.
|
I thoroughly recommend this book. Krakauer himself summited with one of the groups who were hit by the tragedy.
In the book he questions the whole ethos of trips where people who go on them are those that can afford them rather than those who are best equipped physically and mentally for the challenge.
He also goes into detail about the lack of cooperation between groups in agreeing who should make summit attempts on what day and lack of cooperation when it came to rescue, as well as the abandoning of helpless climbers. Virtually every concern raised in this thread has been covered in the book.
A helicopter was used to get some of the survivors off at I believe about 24,000 feet. This was at the time the highest rescue effort ever made by a helicopter and the Nepalese pilot was risking his life in attempting it. It is one thing to get a stripped down helicopter to the summit for some record attempt, than it is to carry rescue equipment plus a decent fuel load and extra passengers as was the case in this situation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
richjp, for the purpose of balance with Krakauer's book, I would also suggest people read The Climb by Anatoli Boukreev. Both are very good books but look at the same events from a different perspective.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Also, try reading Dark Shadows Falling by Joe Simpson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
As far as I can see, climbers are a community unto themselves and - so long as they tackle and conquer summits with their eyes open - they can determine their own set of ethical codes.
If and when David Sharp's friends and family have reflections on his terrible death, those are likely to be the most compelling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Snipped from the www:
"Best and Worst Years on Everest:
1993, 129 summitted and eight died (a ratio of 16:1); in 1996, 98 summitted and 15 died (a ratio of 6½:1) "
some figures put the overall average at 8:1, some at 10:1
Those odds are not ones I would choose to take on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
If and when David Sharp's friends and family have reflections on his terrible death, those are likely to be the most compelling. |
His family were very grateful to Russell Brice and his team for the help they gave. Russell is Chamonix based so I suspect there are other sHds who know him much better then me but I've spoken with him in the past and he seems a very decent bloke who cares a lot about other climbers. He guided Marco Siffredi on his successful descent of Everest.
I see Kuwait_Ian's (and Admin's) point about lack of control over the groups climbing Everest. There is also Mark Inglis's reported point about David Sharp being less professional than his team (you can say that is an obvious statement) but it does smack a bit of the hubris that Krakauer talks about in Into Thin Air. I remember Rob Hall criticizing Chantal Maudit after his team rescued her from Everest in 1995 for being "unprofessional" and someone who shouldn't have been on the mountain. A year later Rob Hall would die having made some bad choices - although you really can't fault Hall for going down with his ship when he could have got himself off the mountain had he chosen to.
Has Everest become too much of a circus far removed from specialist climbers pushing the limits? Or was it always so? We seem to have the absurdity of people wanting to be the "first Cornish gay with a cleft palette" to summit but is this any worse than the national climbing teams of the 30s-60s with their thousands of sherpas and siege tactics?
One can criticize the people climbing Everest with a hugh backup team of professional guides as mere "summit baggers" but is there any difference, apart from altitude, with anyone else hiring a guide to climb other routes.
It appears that David Sharp was an experienced climber with previous experience at high altitude on Everest. He was largely self reliant so probably knew very well what the risks were.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
davidof, That is all well and good but does it excuse the apparent attitude/behaviour of the other teams toward a climber in distress?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Masque, I think the point is that there was nothing that they could do. Carrying him down from that altitude was not feasable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Masque wrote: |
| davidof, That is all well and good but does it excuse the apparent attitude/behaviour of the other teams toward a climber in distress? |
It's terrible dilemma, but things are different above 8,000m. Unless people have spent time in the 'death zone' I'm not sure they would be able to comment on what is understandable behaviour.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Think of the effect it has on you at ski destinations of high altitude, for example the top of Zermatt lift platform (about 3900M?) then think of mountaneering at 8000M+, they call it the death zone for a reason. Also, 28,000 is extremely high, just below the summit, thats pretty much the height of K2.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, There's the problem, who out of all these teams made that decision and under what circumstance or financial pressure. If today's modern equipped teams are now climbing this level of mountain with no capacity to attempt any sort of rescue for an injured person then it's time to stop the climbing. Dying is one thing being ignored and left to die is another. In the absence of more information I'm disgusted.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Shaun Hurlow wrote: |
| richjp, for the purpose of balance with Krakauer's book, I would also suggest people read The Climb by Anatoli Boukreev. Both are very good books but look at the same events from a different perspective. |
Shaun, I agree with you and I have that one as well, although overall I was more convinced by Krakauer's version.
You probably know that Boukreev himself died a few years later. I think he was an avalanche victim in the Annupurna region.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| richjp wrote: |
| overall I was more convinced by Krakauer's version. |
That's interesting. Krakauer is a much better writer than Boukreev and his colleague but there were a number of errors in Krakauer's book which left me unconvinced by his account. One of the bigges was his claim that Boukreev wasn't wearing proper high altitude climbing gear which one reason why he headed back down to his tent so quickly whereas when you look at the summit photos Bookreev is in exactly the same clothing as the other lead guide. It made me think that Krakauer had some journalist's axe to grind against Boukreev. That the whole summit attempt was an enormous clusterf*ck cannot be denied by any party and Krakauer and Boukreev were at least on hand to document it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
