 Poster: A snowHead
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Two British instructors have each been fined 10,000 Euros for teaching in Megeve. It's the latest chapter in a long-running saga involving the French authorities preventing foreign instructors from working unless they hold French qualifications.
Simon Butler and James Barrett-Boyce have both worked in Megeve for ten years, operating holidays there. The prosecution demanded fines of 4,000 Euros, but these were increased by the court.
This report (in French, translation button at end of article) from Le Nouvel Observateur.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well well what a surprise 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, I'm impressed how the French manage this. In medical matters, any doctor trained anywhere in the EEC can apply for an NHS post in Britain. We are not allowed to discriminate. Presumably Simon and James have some sort of BASI qualification. So how are the French managing to keep us nasty foreigners out?
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Jonpim, It's not a secret. France (like most of Europeland) just applies whatever euro-laws are convenient for its own nationals and ignors the rest. It's mainly just the stupid British who actually enforce euro-laws, usually against the interests of British people.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This article, by Arnie Wilson of the FT from 4 years ago, explains what this problem is all about.
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| Quote: |
This report (in French, translation button at end of article) from Le Nouvel Observateur.
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The translation is dreadful!
A very sad situation but sadly unsurprising
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The translatino may be dreadful but in the text I read:
...sans être titulaires du diplôme français ou d'un équivalent...
Which loosely translated (by yours truly) sound a bit like:
"...without holding a French certificate or an equivalent..."
a few lines below the concept it's reiterated...
So according to the article the two instructor did not submit their BASI (I don't know if they have one, the piece doesn't say anything about that)certificates...but then its says that foering instructors are being prosecuted in France for teaching without holding a French certificate...
I think that to be able to read the court order would give us a better idea...
(sentence in brakets added to clarify my thought).
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 26-03-04 13:15; edited 2 times in total
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I had my first skiing lessons (apart from a week in the Italian ski school) with Simon (and I think his brother?) in Megeve in the early '80s. Can't remember a lot about it - wasn't very old, passage of time, ageing neurons etc etc. However, I do recall them being enlightening teachers at a time when there was very llittle native English language skiing going on in France.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pistehors takes a much tougher line... http://www.pistehors.com/comments/248_0_1_0_C/
They run with the lede "French justice has finally caught up with two rogue British ski instructors" and report that the men were offering ski courses to their guests.
After a compliant from ESF, they were charged - initially trying to "bluff it out by pretending not to speak French." They also inflamed opinion by saying their clients wouldn't want to ski with ESF anyway.
Pistehors notes that Simon Butler Skiing is still offering tuition on its website, in contravention of French law. It suggests the court wanted to deter rogue British businesses in the Alps, which avoid tax, employ staff on British contracts etc.
"Today the the court in Bonneville wanted to send a clear message that those businesses which flout the law will not be tolerated."
Edited after request from PisteHors
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 26-03-04 13:21; edited 1 time in total
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On his website, btw, Simon Butler says he's a grade 1, ISIA
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DavidS wrote: |
| "There has been anger that some chalet owners operate their tax affairs ‘mid-channel’ and that hotels and tour operators employ staff on English contracts avoiding high French taxes. Today the the court in Bonneville wanted to send a clear message that those businesses which flout the law will not be tolerated." |
I think they're trying to muddy the water a bit here. The "flouting" relates to their lack of qualifications. The other section of this paragraph relates to something they don't like, not something thats illegal.
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The pistehors comments seem pretty viable. This applies to all professions in France which are regulated. Now you might see it as a form of protectionism, others will see it as the only means of guaranteeing standards with any degree of certainty.
I agree that that the French are a bit stubborn in awarding equivalence where the qualifications in the state of origin are of a high standard. However the view here in France is 'better safe than sorry'.
As always where red tape is involved there are examples of pettiness or downright injustice in some cases. However the overall standards in many professions in France are maintained at a higher level than elsewhere as a result.
So what might seem unfair to some has undoubtedly brought considerable benefits to others. Depending on the profession, this can either save the paying customer money (eg better regulation of financial/insurance/estate agency professionals) to lives (as in ensuring medical practioners in 'fringe' areas of medicine cannot practice without a licence, unlike in certain countries).
Sure there's a grey area inbetween, but it's easy to pick out one example such as this and turn it into a media anti-French circus - we see plenty of those! The Pistehors summary makes sense to me. I've seen enough cowboy British expats trying to make a living on the black market and/or without adequate qualifications to understand why the French feel the way they do. And, I would add, quite a few legitimate Brits over here!
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You know it makes sense.
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I have to say that having received a lot of my ski tuition in France, I am quite pleased their standards are so high. I've never used ESF or similar, instead opting for a British company that employs largely BASI-qualified instructors. The reason? The standards for these guys (and girls) is clearly going to be higher than for local French instructors - let's face it, France does employ protectionism in a way, but that's not always a bad thing.
The good news for me as a consumer is that I can go there, knowing the people I'm paying to teach me are the very best around. After all, if the French authorities have allowed them to teach, they've probably had to prove they're a lot more qualified and experienced than equivalent teachers in non-French resorts (Andorra, Scotland, maybe even Switzerland).
Ok, so it may cost more for ski tuition in France, but then the holiday tends to cost more! You pays your money...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PG wrote: |
| The view here in France is 'better safe than sorry'... However the overall standards in many professions in France are maintained at a higher level than elsewhere as a result. |
But, interestingly, a lot of Brits do not have a very high regard for French ski schools, regarding them as inflexible, providing poor of customer service etc. etc.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| masopa wrote: |
| The good news for me as a consumer is that I can go there, knowing the people I'm paying to teach me are the very best around. After all, if the French authorities have allowed them to teach, they've probably had to prove they're a lot more qualified and experienced than equivalent teachers in non-French resorts (Andorra, Scotland, maybe even Switzerland). |
Mmm.. not sure about this. I have been led to believe that if the French authorities have allowed them to teach, all they've had to prove is that they can race well. Happy to be corrected if this is not the case.
I've had some truly appalling French ski instructors over the years (with one or two good ones in between I admit) who haven't had the slightest idea of how to teach. The best instructor I have ever had was in Andorra last year - it was a real revelation what a good teacher could do for my skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, thank you for this article. It is of course crazy that ski-teachers are not assessed on their ability to teach, but on their ability to ski. My children are taught in school by excellent teachers, but none of them are professors. Indeed some of the professors I have met would make very bad teachers. OK, so here I am talking about accademic teaching, but the games teachers are also not necessarily of county standard, nor do the music teachers play in famous orchestras, but they all still inspire Rosie and Tom to great things. I think Jean-Yves Lapeyrre of Ski Cocktail (see FT.com article in DG's post) is right.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DavidS, Safety and inflexibility/customer care are separate issues really. I for one think that customer care is one field where the French have got a lot to learn! I was referring more to the question of basic standards of security/safety.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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And I was pointing out that there may be a trade off between security/safety and innovation/dynamism/quality!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This whole speed test business is utter nonsense. I've spent years teaching people to ski, not to ski at high speed. Race technique is completely irrelevant to the typical recreational skier.
Ski instruction is a question of communication skills, demonstration skills, and an entertaining approach to teaching technique. The focus of ski instruction will always be getting people up to good parallel standard to enjoy a variety of terrain and conditions. The vast majority of skiers stop taking lessons at that point, simply to enjoy their holiday sliding. Anything else is only of specialised interest to the ambitious advanced skier.
When did anyone last see a ski class skiing gates?
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Dave Burt, true to a degree - my kids have had somewhere around a hundred ESF instructors in private lessons as we toured the southern Alps over the years, and some were indeed appalling. But others were the best I've seen. I think it would be appropriate to find out the facts about the current ESF courses before making any judgements here. Many of the 'older generation' instructors qualified automatically well before current standards were introduced.
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DavidS, An overlap perhaps, I agree. I understand though that increasing importance is being apportioned to actual teaching ability at the ESF, partly as a result of criticism such as in this thread.
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David Goldsmith, quite right! So what is this test all about then? Not for the benefit of the average learner skier, obviously. Restrictions? Elitism? Tradition? French Bloody-mindidness?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, Not true. You say it yourself - it's inappropriate for (some) recreational skiers. However many pupils, although but no means the majority of course, wish to learn to ski safely at speed. Some to race. So obviously, instructors need to be able to qualify in this field.
The race skiers, I would add, are in my opinion the safest and most skilled skiers on the slopes - by a considerable margin!
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Jonpim, you answer your own question. Those who are not the 'average learner skiers', but those who wish to move on to the next step!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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David Goldsmith, I've had a lesson through gates, once. The instructor set up the course, explained the basic theory, and we spent a day at it. It's useful as it changes the mindset from trying to be "correct" in your skiing to trying to be "effective". You don't care what you look like, so long as you're quick.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PG, but that doen't mean they are any good at teaching.
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The editor of PisteHors has been in touch with a request not to breach the site's copyright by copying and pasting material from the site to snowHeads. I have edited my post as a result and will obviously be more careful when referring to PisteHors in the future.
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You know it makes sense.
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There's a major misconception here about the nature of the 'race skier'. There is no such thing. The race skiers are the product of a system of many years of training involving freestyle, free skiing, technique, off-piste.... the whole package. The standards and ability that evolve are far beyond anything most of us even dream of.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Dave Burt, I've heard a lot of good things about the tuition in Andorra, so you're probably right - I was just a bit hasty in listing other countries!
My point was more about finding British instructors in French resorts. I think I'm right in saying that British instructors will probably have to prove they are good skiers (and hopefully will also be good communicators) whereas French instructors may be able to get through, as you say, by demonstrating they can ski quickly.
From what I understand, a lot of what concerns British wannabe instructors is the GS speed test, but that may just be because it's perceived as an "extra" hurdle to overcome once they'd actually attained their final BASI qualification.
I'm sure that if the BASI 1 qualification wasn't up to scratch, the French wouldn't even have bothered to introduce the GS speed test - surely the fact that they've allowed BASI-qualified instructors in suggests the British qualification is accepted by the authorities as good enough?
I always contact the ski school I'm booking with in advance to talk about their instructors and get a feel for their experience. Over the past few years I've used Mountain Masters and New Generation and have had nothing but excellent tuition and despite being expensive, superb VFM.
I'm sure I could have got equally good instruction elsewhere, had I been lucky or known which instructors to hire. However, I just feel safer in France knowing if I go to a reputable school, I'm virtually guaranteed good service.
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Poster: A snowHead
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PG, I'm an average learner skier. I ski blacks, bumps, jumps, off-piste, couloirs, flat piste, steep piste, funny tree routes, half pipes, anything. But I do not intend to compete in races. I don't need a racing expert, I need a teacher who can communicate and inspire. These skills do not necessarily go together.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jonpim, sure, but the ability to demonstrate what they teach still has to be part of the package they offer you. I agree that effective teaching is vital as well. But it is not exclusive as I thought David Goldrsmith was suggesting. Perhaps I misunderstood, but 'nonsense' did seem pretty explicit!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The best lesson I had (and I've had loads, mainly from ESF) was from a Frenchman who was married to an English woman and who spent a substantial part of each year over here. The result - much better communication.
The contrast between his lessons and the others I'd had was very marked. So I'd have to put the ability to communicate above ability to ski. Those that can.......
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PG, I think we actually agree. Instructors do need to have ability relevant to what they are teaching. I just question the need for all instructors to be able to ski a slalom course at 50mph. School teachers train to teach a perticular age group. I would not want an A level teacher teaching my primary children. I gas adults, am quite good with the very old and very ill (racing standard?), but would not anaesthetise small children.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 26-03-04 14:04; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
French instructors may be able to get through, as you say, by demonstrating they can ski quickly
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masopa, No longer as true as it once was. Speed? Sure, but technique has always been vital, and the ability to teach is increasingly being seen as important. Why? It's customer-driven. The French have however always been a little slow in this respect!
But at risk of sounding like a stuck record, how do DG and others suggest that instructors teach those advanced skiers who wish to learn to race 1) if that's what they want and 2) if their pupils are faster than they are?! It's by no means all through gates. Mostly it's high speed carving with the instructor leading. I've seen several advanced pupils half-asleep behind instructors that simply couldn't ski at the same pace.... and skiing badly as a result.
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What I mean by 'nonsense' is that the speed test excludes superb ski instructors from teaching in France simply because they can't run gates at high speed. It's a specialised elite skill that is far less important than the other attributes mentioned above: communication, demonstration and personality.
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marc gledhill, Not sure about that. When you watch a training session, speed is ok, but bad technique will let you down in most races, even if you get lucky once! There's no ideal technique (just watch Bode Miller skiing!) but the principle is that if you're fast, you can be faster with better technique. I've seen trainees come flying down the course at speed, and after some mild praise gat a stiff lecture on all the trainer's instructions they had ignored.... plenty of times.
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The euivalence or test of capacity is not there just to deter non-French skiers, it's set to weed out the wannabes wouldn't have a hope of making it. As it's been explained to me it's a basic test of competence, open to anybody, prior to employment as a trainee. not as a qualified instructor. I do not disagree with the French stance and PG has hit the nail on the head when he refers to the problems caused by cowboy operators. It amazes me that these characters think they can work without the locals being aware of their activities. We operate our business in a small French village, where without exception we have had nothing but help and assistance from virtually everyone we had dealt with but we are very careful to ensure that we do not do anything that could be seen to be detremental to our French neighbours. It's also a myth that the French ski schools do not accept the English, there are English and Scots intructors working locally, one of whom is the deputy Director of the ESF. I know they are prepared to accept foreign qualifications but the equivalence must be taken as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, that qualification (of your statement) makes all the difference. However, it would be a ponderous training system that allowed for good teachers with 'lesser' speed' to be accepted - after all, where do you draw the line?
And let's not get this out of proportion. The tests involved do not demand Herminator-level abilities!
The vast majority of good club skiers could pass the instructor speed tests with little difficulty. My daughter got her gold flèche at age 9, as do many others. This means than a 30kg toddler can already ski within 17% of the official time of a full French team male skier. Now if an adult wishing to become an instructor can't manage the entrance speed tests, well, I'm sorry, but much as I completely agree with all the comments about teaching ability being vital, I fail to see why a good teacher can't learn to ski fast!
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Jonpim, I appreciate what you say - the problem lies in financing/organising a system that would be able to teach people at different levels. The easiest solution would be to ensure that instructors are both good at teaching and can ski fast! The idea that the speed tests involved are of a standard that would exclude certain teachers, well I have my doubts. If an instructor can put into practice what he preaches, then he/she will be able to ski fast round gates. If he/she can't, then I would be interested to see the standards of skiing involved!
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FAQ
