 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi folks
Firstly, I can't seem to find again the thread thanking admin for getting this all back up and going again, so I'm going to do it here. I still find it amazing that there are individuals running all the many hundreds/thousands of interest boards in web-land who give their time freely and selflessly for the benefit of all us posters worldwide - you are all saints and deserve medals, as do many of the experts that sit almost as residents in these areas giving of their advice freely and without complaint. I don't know what drives you all to do it, or how to reward those running the areas that I sign up to, but I'm glad you all do it anyway.
Now skiing with kids. rpft pointed me at a frosty the snowman thread about a group holiday and lost kids, who scared themselves rigid getting home. All ended well.
As you all know mine are aged 7 and 4 and only started learning last Feb. So far they haven't outstripped me competency wise, but as you have all told me they soon will! Because as you all know I still fall in the category of nervous beginner. I am learning because as the kids want to explore the mountain as they get more competent I don't think it will be safe to let them go off on ski lifts and down slopes that I am not in the immediate vicinity of. Do you all agree with this first concept, i.e. that at that age they shouldn't be off by themselves? Are kids in as much danger on the slopes from 'stranger' as they are in their own town, am I worrying unnecessarily? Is there any age bar to using various lift types without grown-ups that I could deploy to delay the exploring by themselves tendency. I have no problem with them going off with their instructor groups, but that is different. My Swiss friend has two kids, obviously a tad more competent than mine, but about the same ages - They are in the next classes up from mine at ski school - are 4 less or more of a problem than mine by themselves?
If so how can it be avoided, esp. if I end up not being able to ski down what they can? How can I tell if they have the maturity/competence to go off without me? If they do go off one day how do I know if they are OK?
Are there any precautions that I can take, what should I tell them, i.e. Frosty the snowmans thread suggested that children should be told to stay put if they have any bother, and to give them a card with contactdetails on it - where should I put this - inside helmet/clothing/both? Other?
Even if I'm not entirely clear I hope you can all see where I am coming from and that you might all have some comments for me - I hope this is the correct forum - it didn't seem to fit elsewhere
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I would be very hesitant to let mine go off alone and they are 16, 15 and 10. My fear is more that they haven't a clue about direction and would get completely lost (they are girls after all  ). They refuse to look at piste maps and are always mistaking new pistes for ones they have done before (or not recognising ones they have). They are pretty competent skiers now, but they could so easily get lost.
Don't let them ski out of sight would be my advice (at least for a good number of years) - and you must remember that it is a dangerous mountain environment, even though it has the appearance of a playground.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, I have a 10 year old who is tentatively beginning to ski blacks and bumps, and a gung-ho but not very competent 5 year old.
Lifts - The 10 year old will ride anything competently and safely, the five year old needs to be told to be sensible on chairs, as he is way too relaxed and could easily slide under the safety bar - really need an adult.
Runs - They both need to be with an adult at the moment, and the screams from the 10 yr old a few years ago when he got a leg a bit bent hitting a tree still haunt me. He was ok though, but needed help up.
Stranger-Danger - not sure that a ski resort would be a cost effective way for a paedophile to meet kids. I think probably less at danger than in home town, swimming pool, scouts etc etc.
Safety details - both carry cards in their jackets with names, our names, hotel accomodation, mobile numbers etc etc.
Mountain-Environment - This is the key one. Mountains are big dangerous places with rapid changing visibility and conditions, and a lot of dangers from the terrain and other users. They need to learn about these, and if you are a beginner, so do you.
For a few years you shold be able to contain them in ski school, and with some decent lessons and effort yourself you will quickly be able to ski most of the mountain, and you can forbid them from skiing without you or an instructor until they are ready, but I don't think there is a fixed age for that. Kids differ. If in doubt, find an instructor you trust who is also a parent, and get them assess the situation.
It's a worry though isn't it? But I have the same worry about letting them walk themselves to school - although at age 8 I was travelling unaccomapnied to school by train every day.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 4-01-07 23:18; edited 1 time in total
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Everyone of course has to make their own judgements, but my kids, now 7 and 11, have never skied without adult supervision. My daughter, now 11 but 10 when we last skied, is very advanced on skis and has completed the top level in ski school in both France and Canada, but she is still 11 and therefore in my mind not old enough to go off for the day without an appropriate adult. Fortunately I am still (only just) able to out-ski her so she does enjoy spending the day with me almost as much as with a ski instructor. But certainly there is a concern that one day very soon, she will want to disappear with friends or even on her own and I'm not sure how to deal with that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, my boys (twins) are 6 and daughter 4. Boys are very good now, but there is no way I would let them out without me or an instructor. I am quite happy for them to be without me when in lessons.
Even so to be on the safe side I gave them cards with my and Mrs mobile numbers on, with the strict instructions that is they were ever lost they went to a lift and asked the people there. This is zipped into pocket with lift pass and they're told not to use that pocket.
I take the boys out on my own in the afternoon, but set strict rules, namely they follow me and should they get ahead eg one has fallen and I stop, they stop and wait at the next junction. If these rules are broken then they don't ski - simple as that. So far we have got along just fine with these rules.
In terms of runs, I stick to runs which I know they have done with instructor and I'm happy with them on. I would class myself as a good skier and better than them still, but they know no fear!
In terms of lifts, one gets on on the left with lift helper, I'm in middle and help the other on.
With regard to stranger danger, I think this is more fear in the Uk than anything else, but certainly in ski resorts and in Europe generally my experience has been that adults are more prepared to look out for other kids.
Hope this is of some help
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Megamum, for all Frosty's angst it was obvious that his nippers had a modicum of common sense . . . whether through blind luck, education or just having been dragged up amongst the 'dark satanic mills' . . . I'll take a punt on FtS teaching them the basics of mountain safety in that situation.
I met a kids camp organiser a couple of years ago and over a beer or three we had a conversation about this very subject. So, from memory, this is what she advised.
Rule 1: in a pocket of each kid, put 50Euro and a piste map in an envelope and on the front of the envelope put the Family name, the resort, the TO and the Hotel details inc. phone number. and give them the incentive that if they did not need to open the envelope during the holiday they would get the 50Eu to spend on the last day.
Rule 2: If on the mountain and not in school, every kid's pack should have at a minimum a small bottle of water, at least two 'energy bars' and a spare pair of dry gloves. You can add a survival blanket and a couple gel heat packs if you're going at mid-winter.
Rule 3: On the piste map circle the places on each hill that are agreed meeting points and that these places MUST have shelter and food (cafe}. If they get lost or split up and are still on piste, that is where they must go and STAY there till found.
Rule 4: If they stray off-piste, the moment they feel lost . . . they must turn around and follow their tracks back to the piste . . . as hot and sweaty as that may make them and if their skis/boards make this difficult they should stack them together and leave them behind . . equipment can be replaced. When they get back to patrolled piste they should stay where they went off the piste and flag down any passing skier and ask for help to get to the nearest agreed meeting point.
She spent most of her time herding 6 -10 year olds around the hill and she felt that the vast majority of kids had no problems with this level of personal resonsibility
hope this helps.
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I think the most important thing is keeping them educated about skiing and the mountain while you are still with them. Dont just handle all the route decisions yourself, but let them figure out the piste map and which run to take to get home etc. Mountain safety and emergency procedures should be second nature to them too. In that case, once they are a bit older and you are confident about their knowledge/maturity/sensibility they should be fine skiing by themselves. However, at that age i would recommend they always stay with an adult (who is a good skier).
I skied by myself for one day at the age of 15, and because i was aware of the dangers, new what to do in an emergency, more competent at reading the piste map than my parents, and a strong enough skier i was okay.
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I stick to runs which I know they have done with instructor
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That's a good point for adult beginners too - accidents often happen when people ski with partners or friends after ski school and try something too difficult for them rather than seeming to cop out. I can't imagine anyone allowing a 7 year old, let alone a 4 year old, to ski without an adult unless it is round and round a short button lift where you are relaxing on a terrace with a hot chocolate, with the kids in full view (some resorts are better than others for that sort of thing, worth doing some research). We have just had supper with friends with an apartment in our development who have a very keen, and very competent, 15 year old son who is dying to be out on the first lift and definitely far more competent than Mum and Dad who enjoy a relaxed start to the morning. They never let him ski on his own but the problem was solved by my daughter (23!) who invited him to ski with her and her boyfriend, meeting at the lift pass office at 9 am. He went off with a big grin on his face. My daughter's boyfriend is a PE teacher with a Mountain Leadership certificate who has organised school ski trips and is extremely responsible, so he will be fine. And this is a very safe resort (it would be different in, say, St Anton). But other times that lad just has to get bored skiing with Mum and Dad - it's a tough life. But this underlines the importance of finding some mixed groups to ski with, different families, different levels. Chalets can be useful for that too, and although teenagers can be a bit daft and egg each other on to do silly things that is also true at home in Halifax, or Portsmouth, or wherever. I'd rather my 16 year old was a bit silly in a ski resort than in a Portsmouth night club.... And a 17 year old lad is in a lot less danger in a ski resort than in his first car showing off to a couple of mates. It's worth making sure they have Carte Neige insurance and the receipt in their pocket - it's cheap, and a lot more use than a piece of paper with details of some UK insurance company if the worst happens and they need rescuing. (that's as well as UK insurance by the way, not instead of). But Megamum, you have a long time to go before worrying about all that. Meantime, concentrate on learning to ski better and faster than they do. One of my sons overtook me at the age of about 12, but I can still keep up with 2 of my 3 offspring. You don't have to concede defeat!
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Thanks all, these are the types of replies that I was looking for - there is nothing like being able to say well other folks don't let their kids do things. At the moment I can't see there will be any probs with them looking to do things without me for a few years, but there is nothing like being forearmed. I'm dead impressed that you all think even mid-teens benefit from sensible supervision and that you can get it to work. At the moment I am pleased to be able to say that my kids behaviour is a credit to me, both are sensible and listen to me, and if I can instill good advice to them now it will pay dividends in the future - I teach them the dangers of the road, I will also have to teach them the dangers of the mountain. This like most other lessons will be best taught young - if I tell them now that even older children stay with their parents this will be accepted more easily now than it might be if proposed later on.
I hadn't even considered the problem of getting lost. I suppose that's even more important if visibility is low or suddenly decreases. I guess that it has been no consideration for me yet because so far I've not gone for than about 500m from the central lifts - the 1st blue run is not so long - its that one I ski down on that video I posted. However, I am aware acutely aware that it can be a potentially dangeroous environment, but perhaps not from every angle, but youngsters don't seem to see any problems do they? - With me it took 4 days before I would even get on a chair lift and dangle!! I carry drink, chocolate, 1st aid kit, foil blanket etc. and am a member of St. John ambulance so always have 1 mind on safety. It is clear though that I will have to become proficient as well - lots of private lessons this year I think. I will get labels made up with appropriate info on too and fasten inside their clothes. I'll have to work out what our mobile numbers become once in Switzerland. Adding the appartment block info is also a good idea.
It is reassuring that you think most adults look out for the kids - I know I looked out for others when I went. I think perhaps that skiing is not a cheap sport and maybe that encourages a higher percentage of the more decent members of the world wide community than others 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w, Carte Neige Insurance? I took winter holiday insurance out with a company in the UK before I went last year, but haven't heard of this. Can you enlighten me please?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, if you're using your UK mobiles then the numbers will be the same as they are here, provided you have programmed them with the full code ie +44 789101112 whatever. Since the +44 works in the UK anyway you might as well program the phones that way to save hassle when travelling.
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Yoda, great - thanks
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You know it makes sense.
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At 7 years old I was sufficiently competant to be able to ski on my own but rarely did so, by 10 I was doing so regularly, however times have changed and if they were my kids I'd keep them close but certainly allow the 7 year old a little leeway thogh not too much, for instance if they want to do "just one more run to the lift" and you can see them down to the lift let them go but make sure they know exactly where to come back to, I can't see the 4 year old straying very far so I don't think they will need lots of bits and pieces. But I'd go with Masques suggestions for the 7 year old just in case.
Carte Neige is effectively extra insurance that you really should use if skiing in France, simply because some French resorts will not recover you from the mountain unless you have either Carte Neige or a large amount of cash, the Swiss seem more civilised and buisness like and will send you an invoice afterwards or deal directly with your insurers, I'm not sure about other countries.
One last tip if the kids are skiing with you keep a pair of spare gloves for each of them, don't leave them with the kids because you will find when they return that they've managed to loose one of each
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum,
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both are sensible and listen to me
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That's over half the battle won then! Apply the advice here and you will have a safe and happy ski trip
Have fun 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum - I am just back with my two aged 8 and 10 (second week skiers). My daughter wore a red helmet which I found made her a lot more visible and easy to pick out on a busy run than my son in a grey helmet, so would recommend a bright coloured helmet and bright coloured ski clothes (and boots if possible). Visibility was good whilst we were ski-ing, but I think this would also be very useful in poor visibility. The only time I let them ski 'on their own' was on a very short green run with a button lift and a cafe at one side half way down, so that I could keep them in view while they went up and down.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Last year after the 6 yr old (as was) had been on the close blue run with her instructors on the last day she wanted more of the same. As I say it was about 500-800m on a button lift and she had got the button on/off sorted out. It was just a long oblong stretch up and down with about a 30m exit at the bottom. I was sometimes using it at the same time (though I hadn't her sheer energy!). As I could see the whole way up I couldn't see any problems in letting her go up and down herself, afterall its difficult for 2 to ride one button and she was already going faster than me on the way down! (though my swiss friends found they were able to take my 4 yr old and ski down with him between their legs!!), but that was as far as I let her go un-aided. Also, their was still the odd instructor taking their private lessons in the same area which I found kind of reassuring. She really seemed to enjoy nipping up on the lift and zooming down then going straight around again, again, again etc. I wasn't so keen the first time she tried it, missed the turn and literally plummeted through the fall line, but she stayed upright, laughing and didn't hit anyone so no harm done (unless you count hours knocked off my lifespan!). Would you say this seems a reasonable thing to let her do to build confidence - I couldn't see any real harm in it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, yes i see no harm in that.
As long as she knows how to get on and off the lift safely, and basic ski safety rules ie Stopping at the side. checking above when setting off or joining the piste, giving priority to the downhill skier.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, Assuming there was no easy way to take a wrong turn, I would be happy doing this with my kids, if I was in the vicinity as well and using the same lift and run.
At the end of day - you know your kids best and what they will do
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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you know your kids best and what they will do
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Boris, Agreed apart from the last 5 words. Never under estimate what they will do or what can go wrong, which is why some of the above points need to be followed.
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Frosty the Snowman, ok, agree that you can never know completely what they will do. I guess what I am hinting at is that you know what they are likely to do or what obvious hazards there are eg - if there are any bumps around on a run, or on the edges, I know Matthew will be straight to them.
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if there are any bumps around on a run, or on the edges, I know Matthew will be straight to them.
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Boris, sounds like all kids are alike 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've often let my kids (currently 11, 9, 8 ) ski on their own, but only on a short run that they and I know very well and only if I'm also with my wife - that way, if they go missing one of us can wait at the bottom while the other can go looking for them. I also insist that they never ski alone and always stick to a pre-agreed route so if one of them has a bad fall, another can go for help. Even when you're skiing with your kids, it's incredibly easy to lose them - especially if you're looking after more than one child at a time - so it's essential everyone knows what to do and how to find you when the inevitable happens.
I prefer small, uncrowded resorts for a family holiday. In my view, in an ideal family resort all runs flow down to the same point on the mountain. It might sound a little limiting for the adults, but it makes life a lot less scary when one of your children goes AWOL.
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Jonny Jones, I think your point about a family resort having only one "bottom of the slopes" is borne out by some firends of ours who were skiing in Soldeu and, due to child taking wrong fork (unobserved) ended up in El Tarter. Not a great distance physically but a couple of hours of severe emotional disruption for all concerned. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I prefer small, uncrowded resorts for a family holiday
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An important point. Some resorts are much more suitable for kids to be let loose than others. I'm scared of losing myself in big complicated places, let alone kids. Places full of difficult pistes and boy racers who think they can ski (often British, sadly) are a bit of a nightmare. The French theme tune of our resort (you can hear it if you look at lessaisies.com and click in "hiver") translates as "the gentle resort my mummy takes me to". My daughter of 22 made me swear not to tell her friends.... she'd lose all slope cred.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Carte Neige is effectively extra insurance that you really should use if skiing in France, simply because some French resorts will not recover you from the mountain unless you have either Carte Neige or a large amount of cash,
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D G Orf, Not sure that is correct. The French will get you off the mountain but will insist on payment, i would be interested to hear of any cases where the pistueurs left an injured skier on the mountain due to lack of cash or carte neige.
The carte neige IMHO is pointless if you have good ski insurance that covers mountain rescue.
Megamum, my daughter is a strong skier but is still young and does not always remember mountain safety. When she was 10 she skied ahead of me and stopped below a ridge line. A boarder jumped the ridge and hit her in the head with his board....fortunately helmet worked and she was just shaken up. point being although she is technically competent she is still a kid and doesnt always think everything through... I personally wouldnt let kids ski on their own without adult...to many things can go wrong
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The thing I've seen with skiing is that, even at a very young age, it seems to require children being 'disconnected' from their 'adult'. In horse riding you use a lead rope, in cycling there are many of extra seat arrangements, our walking you can 'hold hand' or use a pair of reins etc. but to learn to ski they have to be 'disconnected' - even if you are there on the slope with them and ycan ell at them you have no 'absolute' control over where they go or what they do second to second. On the street it they go to step into the road you can pull them back, but as far as I can see there is precious little you can do if they are zooming down a slope in the wrong place or have stopped x metres above you in an inappropriate area. Yes, I know I have seen kids skiing with reins at toddler age, but by the time they are 4 I would think they are beyond this means of control, and I would question the usefulness of it anyway. Are you in any more control xm away from them on the same slope than you could be 500m away with them in your sight line? As I saw the day mine plumeted down the fall line, even an expert skier can't physically stop them if they do mess something up.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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You just have us lot instead Michelle 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, you are right in what you say. I guess what you have to do is find what works for you as a family.
We tend ski the same bits of the slope at our own pace, stopping to regroup when the pistes split, or when we arrive at lifts etc. The kids will often go off to the bumps at the side, I will usually either hang at the back (or lead the way if the route is unclear).
I always think that 3 is a good minimum to have ski together, then if one has an accident, one can stay with the injured party while the other goes off for help.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just back from our first hol in Soll and our ski instructor spent a lot of time during our ski lessons rescuing stray, fallen children who didn't appear to be supervised (not in Ski School). Noble of him and I'm not suggesting we should have left them in a heap but actually annoying as it wasted a lot of our valuable lesson time! I am a Mum and wouldn't let mine ski alone without an adult watching them or at least waiting at the bottom and wouldn't expect strangers to take responsibilty for a lost or injured child.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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None of my family skis, so whenever they took me to the Alps I went by myself. It was La Clusaz, a small friendly resort, most of the restaurants etc speak english. I would have been about 12 the first time I went. I was fine. I'm a good navigator though, which helps a lot. I was totally independant, and it was good - but I'd wait till they were into later double figures before letting them out alone, and only then if they are sensible, good at problem solving/gettign themselves out of trouble, and good at navigating.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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letting them out alone, and only then if they are sensible, good at problem solving/gettign themselves out of trouble, and good at navigating.
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Rules me out of skiing by myself 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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If programming numbers of contacts into a mobile phone, put them on speed dial as well.
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And don't forget to put +44 in front of the speed-dial number like some of us have 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
