 Poster: A snowHead
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So here we are. Completely confused.
We have a crossover SUV with adaptive 4x4 drive - i.e. 2wd normally, 4wd up to 50:50 when required with diff lock if necessary.
It has "All Season" tyres marked "M+S". Not, clearly, the British clothing stores. Some website suggest this means "Mud and Snow".
The tyres aren't marked with the snowflake and mountain sigil that I believe means winter tyres.
I have two issues.
From a legal P.O.V. -
- As we live in Switzerland, do I need to fit "real" "Winter" tyres?
- Spending a lot of time in the French Alps, do I need chains?
I do apologise. These seem to be to be almost self evident questions - but I am getting very conflicting data...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Murdoch, Bridgestone Duellers on a Nissan X-trail I suspect, or something very similar. M+S means mud and snow, which makes them all-season tyres and not winter ones I think. They're fine in winter conditions, we used them in Serre Che in heavy snow last year, and had no problems, and didn't need the chains. However, it is illegal not to have the chains, so we do have a pair. Not sure about how the tyres comply with Swiss law, but I thought it was only hire cars that HAD to have winter tyres fitted.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Helen Beaumont, Hi Helen, I think so too, not winter tyres. They're a funny (?) size - 235/65 R18 on a Nissan Murano (good guess with the x-Trail!) - Dunlop Grandtrek ST20s.
The whole legality think seems quite vague in CH - there have been threads in the past. I don't anticipate going past "chaines obligatoire" signs too often but I guess that they're necessary. Really just wanted to avoid the £600 tyre replacement cost - if it was unnecessary, and unwarranted.
Oh well, there we go.
boredsurfin, you would be amazed at just how unclear websites are on tyre suitability. I had pretty much resigned to having chains that hopefully (??) remain unused all winter but wasn't sure whether "mud and snow" was any different to "snowflake and mountain". There is a very interesting report from the Swiss Touring Cluc on winter tyre effectiveness - and basically there are a few that really do work, and many that don't really at all.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch, looked like a drug dealers car when I saw it!! Cruisin' with your homies. Great sound system though.
boredsurfin,
I knew you'd be along sometime.
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Helen Beaumont, I am almost tempted to be rude. Yes, a bit of a homie car. Would you like a wee wedge of the good stuff?
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
Helen Beaumont, Hi Helen, I think so too, not winter tyres. They're a funny (?) size - 235/65 R18 on a Nissan Murano (good guess with the x-Trail!) - Dunlop Grandtrek ST20s.
The whole legality think seems quite vague in CH - there have been threads in the past. I don't anticipate going past "chaines obligatoire" signs too often but I guess that they're necessary. Really just wanted to avoid the £600 tyre replacement cost - if it was unnecessary, and unwarranted.
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David as far as I know, there is no legal requirement to run winter tyres here in sunny (and not yet enough snowy) Switzerland - we ran (rather expensive) all season tyres on the Range Rover - they worked well all year.
A couple of things to consider....
Firstly - many cars are sold with winter tyres as a freebie... we actually expect to see the double set in any car we buy - especially in the 2nd hand market (if you don't see them then it's a negotiation point with the dealer).
Secondly - the insurance companies have problems if you're involved in an accident and were NOT fitted on winter tyres when the conditions demanded it - you may even be considered to be at fault even if you were not!
Thridly - They're not that expensive - and with them the French have never forced me to get out into the cold and put chains on, even though the others on the road (especially northern french and brits) had to do so.
My advice - get them.
Oh and as Helen and Bored said, you still have to carry chains in France even if you never need them.
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Rutschen, yes, I guess my slightly naive sounding question was really whether M+S = Winter and it's clearly not.
I'm actually having trouble finding the size I need in stock - both Roady and Speedy have suggested I need to call past and order.
Ho hum.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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chris, someone linked to spyder spikes a few weeks back and they look great.
David Murdoch, by all means check the various Pneuhäuser but it's worth checking with a main dealer too - after all they'd look a bit silly selling a car in CH that they can't get winter tyres for. In our experience, Continental winter tyres are excellent and some of the cheapest
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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eng_ch, cheers, I will do, although when we bought the car the Nissan agent said that buying them elsewhere would be a lot cheaper.
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| Quote: |
chris, someone linked to spyder spikes a few weeks back and they look great.
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was me, I have them for my car which has very limited clearance around the wheels and chains are not an option. Spiders are very simple and quick to fit, the only drawback is that they are quite bulky in the back of the car as they do not lie flat.
http://www.spikesspider.com/whatis.htm
http://www.spike-spider.com
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You know it makes sense.
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David Murdoch,
The only people who seem to be very clear about this subject are insurance companies when they are trying to get out of a claim. 
600 quid is a lot of money but -
1) I take it the Munrano has fancy alloy wheels - you don't what to be clipping kerbs or putting snowchains on them in the winter. The best winter tyre size for a given vehicle is normally smaller (narrower and possibly a smaller radius) so another set of winter wheels is preferable.
2) The safety of your family (exc the mother-in-law) is worth it in most cases.
3) If the insurnace companies can get out of it your M&S tyres will probably be the reason.
4) Look at my other posts on tyres and chains. Spider Spikes are the only option for some people but chains are reported to give far better performance on snow / ice.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DB,
| Quote: |
Spider Spikes are the only option for some people but chains are reported to give far better performance on snow / ice.
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I agree completely on this one. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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This may be a dumb question but presumably the fit of the Spider Spikes is such that they will only fit on a tyre exactly as specified on their website? My car has 275/35/19 on the rear and 235/40/19 on the front. These aren't on the list but the equivalent for 18" wheels are. I can't fit chains because the tyres are too close to the wheel arch and I was hoping the Spikes might be the solution. Any thoughts?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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BGA, Spikes are very adjustable to fit different tyre sizes. But to be sure ring the UK importers, they are extremely helpful.
Sole U K Importer - Auto Cavity Seal, Enterprise House, 250 Halifax Road, Todmorden OL14 5SQ U.K. Tel: +44 (0) 1706 819365 Fax: +44 (0) 1706 839962
http://www.spikesspider.com/whatis.htm
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BGA, no, they have some adjustment. There is a plate which fits onto the wheel, one size fits all, IIRC, and the chains themselves have limited adjustment.
I used Spikes Spiders succesfully in not very demanding conditions, on the front (driving) wheels. They are a doddle to put in and take off, once the mounting plate is fitted (which you do in the warmth and comfort of your own garage/driveway/road). Whether the criticism of them is justifed I have no idea, but I can't find any independent report which says 'they're great'.
The usual reason (I think) for not being able to fit chains is not lack of clearance between arch and tyre but too much gubbins in the wrong place on the inboard side of the wheel which would be fouled by a conventional chain, which expends over the inboard face of the tyre. If tyre/arch clearance is your only problem, extra slim chains might do the trick.
The possible problem with Spikes Spiders and some other very easy to fit chains is that since they don't extend down the inboard side of the tyre they may come off the running surface of the tyre under some conditions. I'd be surprised if properly adjusted and fitted SSs would come off a carefully driven wheel in other than extreme circs, but who knows?
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BGA, PS The Roof Box Co are v. helpful on the subject of chains (although of course they want to sell 'em).[/url]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Does anyone know how good the 'chains' which involve rigid arms radiating from the hub and bent to extend across the running surface of the tyre are? Where they cross the running surface, the arms have gripping teeth to provide traction. Presumably, being rigid, these are less likely to leave the running surface of the tyre (until they break) than flexible easy fits like Spikes Spider.
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Thanks for the replies, will make some calls tomorrow!
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Folks that was all very useful, thanks. I should explain that I'm not (just) a tight Scots git trying to irrationally save money - just wanted to ensure
1. that I needed chains - as all received stories, and there have been very, very, many, indicate that the french MPs, etc. do not typically enforce chains on 4x4s
2. that I need "extreme winter" as opposed to "a little bit of mud and snow" tyres from a Swiss p.o.v.
- to avoid completely unnecessary expense.
Although given that the argument for a pimped up homey car as opposed to a large white van (which would currently be more useful) was for capability to get up to CHX in all but road closing weather is clearly specious.
Will report back (in case anyone's interested) on Speedy and Roady's (local versions of Kwikfit) opinions this evening.
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Although if I had done what more people should and searched to find the link above to DB's Austrian tests I would have discovered (with thanks and apologies for Google translation):
"Nearly all tires on 4x4-Fahrzeugen have a M&S marking, face the winter however powerlessly. Particularly the Allroundreifen with M&S marking is dangerous with ice and snow, because they pretend traction security, where none is. Numbers speak for itself: If a jeep with good winter tires is stopped on snow from 80 km/h to 67 m, then the other Zweitonner with the M&S tires continues to rush still with 35 km/h and stands only with 82 M. The Continental 4x4 WinterContact stands completely in front. Balanced under all conditions, he earns four stars and is thus “very recommendable”. Closely behind it the Pirelli Scorpion Ice+Snow ranks - on snow clearly the winner and in addition the best Nassbremser. The Michelin 4x 4 alpine ones is still well on snow and best one on wet roads. “Recommendable” the Goodyear Wrangler Ultra Grip and the Fulda a 4x4 Yukon, whereby the Fulda in the dry one fares somewhat better, achieved the Goodyear for it the better side guidance on ice offer. On snow lie nevertheless the underbody absolutely identically. “Conditionally recommendable” the judgement only reads over the Goodrich Winterslalom rather betagten. It is well reacted to snow, however delicate on wetness. All complete yearly tires are not recommended on winter roadway conditions clearly. The Pirelli can keep up on snow and ice with the winter specialists, is however the worst on wet roadway. Who wants to come thus surely by the winter, genuine winter tires must buy - it really disburses itself."
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| 1. that I needed chains - as all received stories, and there have been very, very, many, indicate that the french MPs, etc. do not typically enforce chains on 4x4s |
In reality, no, I've never seen them make 4x4s put chains on - BUT it's a legal requirement to carry them nonetheless in France and the sheer cussedness of things in general means that if you don't have them you will be stopped and prevented from going up the mountain  We always considered carrying chains as rather like an insurance policy against being made to put them on
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| (with thanks and apologies for Google translation): |
More apologies I think - hell, I translate from German and have problems understanding that! I was back-translating INTO German 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| David Murdoch wrote: |
| 1. that I needed chains - as all received stories, and there have been very, very, many, indicate that the french MPs, etc. do not typically enforce chains on 4x4s |
In reality, no, I've never seen them make 4x4s put chains on - BUT it's a legal requirement to carry them nonetheless in France |
I've once seen local Police require all vehicles, including 4x4s, put on chains or turn around and go down the mountain. It was on the road up to Flaine many years ago in atrocious conditions. OF course, it could have been that the police officer was grumpy from being out in those atrocious conditions and venting his frustration on drivers heading up the hill. Whatever the reason, there seemed to be a fair few cars without chains who were refused access up the road.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| .... that I need "extreme winter" as opposed to "a little bit of mud and snow" tyres from a Swiss p.o.v. |
My understanding (although even tyre suppliers differ on this) is that there are many 'grades' of tyres from extreme to normal.
1. Studded Tyres
2. Snow tyres
3. Winter tyres
4. M&S
i.e. Ask for "extreme winter" or "snow" tyres and you might end up with No 2 instead of No 3. Snow tyres are designed to be driven in snow rather than all winter conditions (they aint much good on non snow surfaces and wear out very quickly on road surfaces). A local taxi driver in a high alpine village (who doesn't do airport runs) might choose "snow" over "winter" tyres.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just remembered - the other thing to remember with winter tyres is that they are not really designed for operation over about 7 deg C. It's not a problem, but just bear in mind that if it's over 7 deg C adn raining, that their grip won't be optimal and leave a little bit longer for braking
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DM,
I'd bite the bullet and get those winter tyres, you are going to need them sooner or later with all your jaunts to the mountains. Sooner or later you will get caught out and at the very least need chains. Winter tyres, once on, you are sorted. In Lucerne. 450m, I believe is it a requiement to have winter tyres from Nov onwards..something like that!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| Just remembered - the other thing to remember with winter tyres is that they are not really designed for operation over about 7 deg C. It's not a problem, but just bear in mind that if it's over 7 deg C adn raining, that their grip won't be optimal and leave a little bit longer for braking |
Remeber reading something on this (wish I could find the link), it stated that even winter tyres brake better in warm wet conditions even if it's warm (7 deg +). The main disadvantage with winter tyres in summer is that the rubber is too soft so it wears very quickly and the sidewalls being soft don't handle so well as a summer tyre. A winter tyre is also more prone to punctures at summer temps.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Boris, try The Roof Box Co. I have a Ford Galaxy 2.6 and ended up having to use Spikes Spiders, for better or worse.
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im driving to chamonix in a 4x4 i wont be bothering with chains unless theforecast on the day i set out is really poor..
1. its main roads all the way
2. its relativly low
3. other than spending 500 plus quid on the manufacturers ones, chances are something from halfords will be no use whatsoever
4,. if its an absolute shocker i'd sooner wait for them to clear the roads than chance it on cheap 'badly fitted in a hurry' snow chains
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Thanks richmond, spoke to snowchains.co.uk who have assured me that Klack & Go ones will fit - looking at the wheel I can't see there being a huge problem as clearance is pretty generous.
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The best rated snow chains by the ÖAMTC (Austrian AA) were ca 130 Euro and I have seen them on offer for less than 100 Euros.
The wrong size snow chains will either be impossible to fit and/or could damage your vehicle.
Boris,
The Sharan handbook or the snowchains handbook says 195/60 R16? What are the dimension of your summer tyres?
As a simple guide normally ...
a. Your summer tyres have larger dimensions i.e. the correct winter tyre has different dimensions (typically narrower width, higher depth and/or smaller diameter)
b. Snow chains will fit a range of sizes as indicated on the box.
Step 1 - Find out what size winter tyres you need and buy new wheels / tyres.
Step 2 - Find a set of chains to match.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boris, the thing to watch is what happens on the inboard side of the tyre/wheel; will the chains foul any gear such as brakes? The problem seems to be particularly with low profile tyres, where the radial distance from the running surface of the tyre to the brake calipers and pipes is low.
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DB, Wheels are 215/55 R16 - as we take one trip a year to the Alps I'm trying to avoid the purchase of Winter Tyres if I can get snowchains to fit. Appreciate they are invaluable if living in mountains or regular visitor, but for yearly run to Alps would only ever be needed once turned of motorway for last 10 miles.
richmond, I've had a good look under and around the wheel and think will be fine. Part of the reason to buy now is to put them on and check it doesn't foul. Had an older Sharan with 15" wheels and was fine with old chains I have.
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FAQ
