 Poster: A snowHead
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Do many people use these?
http://www.abssystem.com/
They seem to be gaining in popularity.
I contacted some guides in Engelberg who said it is mandatory for their punters to hire these bags, and Alpine Experience seem to use and recommend them.
I have also heard that pisteurs in L'Espace Killy will be wearing them as well.
regards,
Greg
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pisteurs in L'Espace Killy have been wearing them for a couple of years. They offer another aspect of safety. But they do not replace common sense.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kitenski wrote: |
| I have also heard that pisteurs in L'Espace Killy will be wearing them as well. |
The piste patrollers in the EK have had them for a couple of years, as is the case in some other resorts such as Valfrejus. Makes sense for the employers who have a duty of care.
If deployed they will keep you on the surface of a slide and depth of burial is the most important factor to surviving an avalanche. Unfortunately people seem to be wearing them as a means to take on more risk in avalanche terrain. Four avy deaths from ABS wearers in France last year.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Talked to a swiss guide out in Canada who was wearing one. I got the distinct impression that guides got them at a very favourable price in order to promote them to clients. He stood out because he was the only person I'd seen in all of Canada wearing one while body armour and full face helmets, tranny, probe, shovel are worn by many people even in bounds.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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are you allowed to take them on planes? don't they have pressurised gas cylinders to inflate the airbags?
anyway, they've always been a bit too pricey for me. i've opted for an avalung pack instead because it's less expensive, seems like reasonable technology and i really like the construction of the pack.
edit: i'd probably be a bit annoyed if i was told to take an ABS pack versus my avalung pack. it's a personal decision IMV. probe, bleeper and shovel are concerned with others' safety as much as your own so they're a slightly different matter
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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You can rent them in certain places e.g. St Anton. Heard a story about a guide who's abs bag went off in a packed out gondola.
http://www.abssystem.com/
They are not cheap,light or small (when compared to a normal rucksack) but if it saves you it's a small price to pay. Some models only have minimal or no storage.
Thought about getting one but realistically I'd have to go for a 30 litre storage capacity but then again when doing multi-day tours I 'd need something in the region of 50+ litres.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Four avy deaths from ABS wearers in France last year. |
Interesting, were they killed by burial, or by the fall? The abs website video claims an impressive 98% survival rate for wearers, I wonder if that includes the ABS wearers from last year?
regards,
Greg
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kitenski, I skied on a ski club holiday in Engelberg last year with 3 mountain guides, 2 of whom had ABS packs, but none of the punters did. Perhaps things have changed?
I believe there are issues re flying with these beasts. They are getting cheaper. See here.
Davidofs details of 4 ABS skiers deaths last year are worrying. Is this adaptive behaviour or a selected high-risk group?
I think as the avalung packs get smaller, that would be my next bit of kit.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I ski with an avalung currently, but after the initial "wearing it everywhere", I don't tend to wear it much, tbh, as it's extra things to put on, more straps etc.
An avalung bag is of interest. The blurb on their website says the ABS bag lifts you up and out of the ava earlier, which would also reduce the risk of injury from the fall, as well as burial.
regards,
Greg
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| I think as the avalung packs get smaller, that would be my next bit of kit. |
not sure what you mean by this. they come in a range of sizes. the covert 22 (which I have) is a very neat daypack
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Earlier this year someone here put up a link for a sale on airbags for around 300 euros. I was very tempted. i think they are superior to anything else on the market as they (aim to) prevent burial and are likely to decrease chances of severe/life threatening injury sustained by a majority of victims. i think that in at least two of the above mentioned deaths the victims were cought by an avalanche set off by skiers above them. The abs only works when you move with the sliding snow. Its therefore not foolproof but for now its as good as it gets. Taking gas cylinders on aircraft maybe an issue but replacement cylinders are not that expensive.
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You know it makes sense.
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Bruno (of HRH fame) is never seen without one, I wonder why? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Arno, fair point - 22l would be about right for me. How do you find it?
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Poster: A snowHead
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stoatsbrother, so far i have only used it for carrying gym kit into work! however, it is clearly a very high quality pack, as you'd expect from Black Diamond. the avalung is pretty unobtrusive so if you aren't going to need it, it functions like a normal pack. an excellent piece of kit IMO
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I know someone who who's life was perhaps saved by using an airbag.
His name is Ludwig ,He works for ski school Aurach in Kitz.
He was off piste over at Pass Thurn when he was caught in a slide.
The airbag worked as intended and he rode the slide out,He triggered it himself though I believe.
But he's still alive to tell the tale and thats the main thing,What price is that worth ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kitenski wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| Four avy deaths from ABS wearers in France last year. |
Interesting, were they killed by burial, or by the fall? The abs website video claims an impressive 98% survival rate for wearers, I wonder if that includes the ABS wearers from last year?
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Regarding the incident mentioned above at least two of the victims failed to activate their ABS packs. They were skiing with a pro and possibly lacked experience. The fact that the avalanche may have been triggered above wouldn't be a problem unless they were already at or very close to the bottom of a slope. The ABS should be effective in any type of slab avalanche. If you had a choice between airbag and beacon then you would go for the airbag.
Last season in France 24 of the avalanche fatalities were wearing beacons. There were only 9 live recoveries using beacons, 1 using a dog and 1 using Recco (2 body recoveries with Recco).
One thought from the above, if you ski any slope wearing a beacon, ABS, Recco or AvaLung that you wouldn't have skied or boarded without then that bit of safety equipment is actually increasing your chance of dying in an avalanche, not decreasing it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
One thought from the above, if you ski any slope wearing a beacon, ABS, Recco or AvaLung that you wouldn't have skied or boarded without then that bit of safety equipment is actually increasing your chance of dying in an avalanche, not decreasing it.
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I couldn't agree more. There seems to be some kind of myth that suffocation is the only problem (yes I know it is fatal), get real, most of the bodies recovered have multiple broken bones.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Recently I bought a 30-litre ABS bag and so can give some comments upon its use for two weeks of skiing off piste. I cannot review it for its claimed life saving properties and I hope I will never be able to. I can review it as an every-day pack for use when skiing.
Documentation - A user manual is supplied on a CD and it is in German. This is fine if you have access to a computer and understand German. So I have not looked at that documentation at all yet! The ABS website has a PDF "Directions for use" file with English and three other languages.
Wearing and carrying it - For the first two days my balance felt wrong, but that is just getting used to a different and heavier pack than my previous one. While skiing, walking, skinning, etc the pack is comfortable and the weight was not really noticeable. When lifting the bag at the start and end of the day it seemed heavy. After a few days I emptied the pack to find things I did not need to carry and found that my bits and pieces did not weigh much compared to the pack, so I put everything back! The chest and waist straps hold the pack nicely when skiing etc and do not hinder movement.
Chairlifts - My 30-litre pack is too large to wear while on a chairlift. Some people wear the 15-litre pack or the Freeride model while on a chairlift. For the ABS system to work as intended the waist and chest straps must be fastened and the "handle" connected. These need to be undone before getting on to a chairlift. This takes time and so I missed a few chairs or was the last to be ready at the top of a lift. A bit more practice should sort this out. The handle is easy to connect and remove, however stowing and retrieving it from the packs waist belt pockets takes practice and I needed to take my gloves off. The waist and chest straps can be fastened and unfastened with gloves on but not, I suspect, with big gloves or mittens. I often fumbled with gloves on and reverted to taking them off.
Features of the 30-litre bag - Lots of pockets for storage in the pack. Main compartment has two zipped pockets inside plus another for a water bladder. There is a gap at the top of the pack for the water tube and a tube fitting on the shoulder strap. Two zipped pockets on the outside of the pack, the top one having another internal zipped pocket. The other external pocket easily held my 1-litre plastic water contained; I do not yet have the tubes needed to keep it inside the pack. On the waist belt one side is a Velcro fastened pocket, it is sized for the release handle. The other side has a zipped pocket that would fit a small camera. I tried it with my camera - not recommended, as there is no padding and the camera battery got too cold so I could not take any pictures that day. Top of the bag has some bungee cord loops. The body of the pack has straps for securing skis or snowboard, also ideal for holding a jacket while walking. There are additional fasteners and loops for adding extra straps for securing different external loads.
In use – No problems at all. There were no signs of snow penetration and no wet contents. But, it only snowed on one day and I had few falls where the pack got covered in snow. There is plenty of room for shovel, probe, skins, drink, snacks, spare gloves and hat, etc.
Colour – I bought the yellow and grey model because I liked the colour. I have not found a hat that matches the yellow!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I can see guides insisting that their clients hire ABS, I just think it is the obvious way things will go.
The best protection is still to avoid getting caught in one so no complacency, IMO
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Adrian, how did you transport your gas cylinders assuming you brought it back to the uk?
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I do not know anyone who carries a complete ABS bag by air. Mine is left in the resort. According to the ABS web site they have got general approval for air transport of the handle, the cylinder and the bag. (The handle may be more interesting to carry than the cylinder as it has a small amount of explosive in it.) I believe the ABS web site says something about they can provide letters to be shown to airlines about the packs being safe to carry on an aircraft.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interesting view from Alpine Experience. http://www.alpineexperience.com/news.html
February 14th.
Yesterday I mistakenly reported a death near the Col du Palet when the fatal avalanche actually took place very near the piste, close to the new Tichot chair, Grattalu side of Val Claret. There was another slide on the Glattier but the skier was saved because she deployed her Air-bag. Take note those of you who ignore the fact that when the ____ hits the fan, an Air-bag increases your chance of survival dramatically
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| Adrian wrote: |
| (The handle may be more interesting to carry than the cylinder as it has a small amount of explosive in it.) |
Thats interesting - do they work on a similar principle to car airbags or is it compressed gas that fills them? If the former you'd expect them to be able to get them down to a very small size as cars seem to cram a ridiculously large airbag into a ridiculously small space.
Personally I still reckon an avalung is probably the best bet - OK so it wont save me from trauma quite so well, but an airbag probably wont help much in a tree well (and so far I've been in several tree wells but (fortunately, touching wood etc) no avalanches)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| alpineexperience wrote: |
| There was another slide on the Glattier but the skier was saved because she deployed her Air-bag. |
there's no way they can know that, of course 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[quote="kitenski"]
| Quote: |
| Yesterday I mistakenly reported a death near the Col du Palet when the fatal avalanche actually took place very near the piste, close to the new Tichot chair, Grattalu side of Val Claret. |
Not sure what type of avalanche(slab etc) this could be described as. It would appear the victim skied off the side of the piste into a large hole and the snow collapsed on top of him burying him 4m deep. Not sure if an Air - Bag would have done anything for him. The area is protected by posts and danger signs.
| Quote: |
| There was another slide on the Glattier but the skier was saved because she deployed her Air-bag. Take note those of you who ignore the fact that when the ____ hits the fan, an Air-bag increases your chance of survival dramatically |
The Glattier run has completly different aspects, steepness & has no similar holes which could give the same conditions. So a direct comparison cannot be made.
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stuarth, an ABS bag has a cylinder of gas to inflate two balloons, my understanding is that the mechanisms in the handle need to be powerful so as to open the path from cylinder to balloons and to do so quickly. The comparison with car air bags is interesting but some thought shows they have very different goals. Car air bags have to deploy quickly to cushion a crash but then deflate quickly to avoid getting in the way. They do not need to be very tough as their life time is short and so much gas is pumped into them that small punctures are probably irrelevant. By contrast ABS balloons must stay inflated for several minutes while they plus their wearer might be thrown about violently and possibly thrown against rocks and trees. A puncture would be undesirable as it would make the balloon useless. Perhaps having two balloons rather than one is considered an insurance against punctures.
Choice of what safety gear to carry relates to your personal assessment of risks. So your choice, stuarth, of an Avalung because of skiing in area where tree wells are a hazard sounds to me like a good choice for you. I have not seen tree wells and do not often get to ski deep snow around trees so an Avalung did not appear to me to reduce my risks.
A friend who heliskis in Canada has an Avalung and his concern is tree wells. He also wears the Avalung when off piste in the Alps. I frequently see him making sure the mouthpiece is close to his mouth and he frequently moves his head to bite the mouthpiece. He is prepared and knows that he can probably get to the mouthpiece if needed. I have seen other Avalung wearers where the mouthpiece is fully retracted and they would need to grab it with their hand to put it into their mouth. I suspect that they would not have the time or the ability to do so if caught in an avalanche or if suddenly tipped into a tree well.
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You know it makes sense.
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I agree that car airbags and avalanche ones need to be very different, but perhaps you could somehow lose the compressed gas tanks (are they very bulky?) by replacing them with an explosive or other chemical gas producing charge which could possibly be more compact.
| Adrian wrote: |
A friend who heliskis in Canada has an Avalung and his concern is tree wells. He also wears the Avalung when off piste in the Alps. I frequently see him making sure the mouthpiece is close to his mouth and he frequently moves his head to bite the mouthpiece. He is prepared and knows that he can probably get to the mouthpiece if needed. I have seen other Avalung wearers where the mouthpiece is fully retracted and they would need to grab it with their hand to put it into their mouth. I suspect that they would not have the time or the ability to do so if caught in an avalanche or if suddenly tipped into a tree well. |
I reckon you're right - you'd have to have your head really screwed on to remember to get the avalung thing out and put it in your mouth whilst trying not to be killed!! I remember the instructor on our avy course telling us to remember to calmly kick off skis and unstrap backpacks as you're tumbling so they don't act as an anchor (apparently he has managed this several times!!  )
In a tree well things would probably be a bit different as you could probably get your hand to your face to use the avalung. In my experience(s) the problem wasn't imminent instant death, just the fact it was really difficult to get out without disturbing more snow whilst dangling upsidedown, and keeping your face clear from loose-ish snow.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I still confused about these things - is the retail market limited to those who live in resorts or drive there. I met a Swiss guide in Canada wearing one which I assume he must have flown with. Otherwise rental has to be reasonable - I guess 10 Euro a day would be fair but hey would need to be pretty widely available.
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FAQ
Sorry, finished my beer... I'll be getting one when a 30-40L pack is semi-affordable. 
