Footbeds - Ouch

A snowHead

Although I have never suffered foot pain, I have fallen arches which has led to knee problems in the past so I use off the shelf insoles for sport. As, from the numerous threads on the subject here, it seemed that I would benefit from them, I had custom footbeds made by EB, but I was unable to find boots I was happy with there, and, following advice here, I went up to Lockwoods and found a pair that fitted me. I wore the boots around the house for a few hours, no problems, then went to the local dry slope. 3 runs in and I had to stop to get the boots off my feet as my arches were killing me.

A rest, another couple of runs and I had to stop again. The hire boots I used on holiday were a bad fit, but even they weren't giving me this sort of trouble after only 10 minutes. The problem seems to me to be the footbeds rather than the boots, as the pain is in the arches which are ordinarily unsupported. Do I need to persevere, as the arches will, in time, get used to the support, or is there something seriously wrong with either the footbeds or my feet for this to be so painful? The mould for the footbeds was made with my weight forward and my toes curled upward, and the resulting footbed provides considerable support.

Has anyone else had similar problems? I figure I should go back to EB (rather than Lockwoods) as they made the footbeds, but would appreciate any feedback/suggestions in advance. Are orthotics likely to be an improvement, or are they, as they would try to position the foot in an optimal skiing position (presumably by using arch support to prevent the arch from collapsing), even more likely to cause arch pain?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

They are red on top, white in the middle, with a grey bit underneath from the heel to the ball, so I guess they have been posted.

Am I right in thinking that they are actually providing too support to the arch, or perhaps just the wrong amount/type of support? I know I overpronate, which caused my previous knee problems, so I figure some arch support would be needed, but the footbeds as they are really are unusable.

Will make the trip back up to Lockwoods if necessary as they were so helpful with the boots, but feel that as EB have had my money, they should at least try to sort the problem first. Can you recommend an alternative method to suggest to EB (other than the "windlass" method), or am I just wasting my time & will I need to make another trip up to Lockwoods (EB is 5 min round trip, Lockwoods is 3 hours, also, I figure EB should at least try to rectify problem gratis)?

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johnnyboy, Sounds as if they have been posted so not a lot to do Sad

Windlass moulding generally gives way too much arch support and in my opinion does not work in ski boots. Very few podiatrists now use this technique. See what EB will do about them but go see Lockwoods, CEM or one of those lovely keeper chaps if you want something that will work. Good luck

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I'd go back to EB and tell them about the pain you experience from the footbeds.

They're only 5 mins away so you've got nowt to loose. Speak to their 'head bootfitter' and tell him the guy who did the footbeds made you curl your toes up (hope it wasn't the head bootfitter who made the footbeds Shocked

)

If they don't sort you out FOC then I guess its back off to Lockwoods.

I guess this tale shows the benefit of getting everything done at the same place (I know this doesn't help you).

Good luck, hope you get sorted,

Hairy Boy

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Unfortunately I think it was their head bootfitter!

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johnnyboy, I'd head back to EB and tell them what's happening. Take your boots...

After all it is free

OK, back to EB, more in hope than expectation. What alternative method to "Windlass" can I suggest to get more suitable footbeds?

I walked around for 10 years with fallen arches and no foot-specific support. When I did finally get customised footbeds for sports shoes and inserts for normal shoes it took my feet a while to get used to the new shape. Don't forget, although you're putting your feet into the shape they are MEANT to be, they have not been that shape for some time (probably) so you are enforcing a change of positioning for all the myriad bones in your plates of meat. Of course you should talk again to the people that moulded the footbeds, but it might also be worth giving your feet a chance to get used to them - it worked for me.

My first week on my first pair of footbeds was, at times, pretty miserable. I'm jnow on my third pair and my feet are very happy with them.

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I'd second what zammo says - I had a pretty miserable time on my new footbeds for a couple of days at the start of the season before last - but it did settle down pretty quickly. But even now I seem to have the odd day where my arch cramps - taking the boot off and putting it back on again seems to solve the problem.

Just a thought, but you may have over-tightened the boots a tad.

LARGEZOOKEEPER - could you describe what they do with the windlass method please?

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PhillipStanton, It's called windlass because it works like one. If you stand barefoot, then lift up your toes, pull hard, you'll notice the arch of your foot rise. In some instances, this can cause too much support and can push hard against the tendon running along the base of the foot causing tinglling. Windlass can work for some, your bootfitter just needs to be careful with whom. Here, we use a combination of windlast and STN to correct heel pitch. Little Angel

Sorry LZK, thought i'd answer this one. Little Angel

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Sub-Talar-Neutral. The repositioning of the: Heel(Calcanius), Talus and Nevicular bones in an unweighted postion. Little Angel

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Many thanks all.

I take on board what zammo and PhillipStanton have said; it confirmed that I might expect to have to wear the footbeds in, and I appreciate that they are repositioning the foot, which will then need training.

However, as I couldn't manage more than 10 minutes at a time (I was literally ripping the boots off my feet by then), and as I now know, thanks to all of you, that there are alternative ways of compensating for my fallen arches, I think I should give then a try, especially if they will mean I can still walk after a session on the slopes. After all, there surely is a difference between "wearing in" and "being crippled by"!

I'll see if EB are prepared to try to rectify the problem, as the footbeds they have sold me really are unusable; if not I think I'll be heading Leamingtonwards again.

One more thing,

A snowHead

A snowHead

Hi Johnny,

Sounds like a large zoo keeper has a bee in his bonnet about windlass... do you know what this is??

Does skeletal stacking sound benficial, or would you prefer to be collapsed in your stance??

I have ski raced, coached, played and spent a few days on snow, averaged around two hundred a year for awhile so have some idea, but am definately still learning! I have tried a number of footbeds - superfeet, rigid orthotics, conform'able, sorefoot, eerrr, I mean surefoot, cork (using STN)... and the thing that makes my foot powerfull and dynamic in snow sport is... the conform'able with windlass! BUT they must be moulded correctly (read between the lines here; no pimply young buck with out experience and advanced training) or they will shut the foot down. PLus they need fore foot varus - this is support upto your toes - this supports your alignment and gets your lower leg to relax so it can function powerfully. How do I know this?? My last pair shut my feet down (from a UK store I won't mention); fortunately I went to profeet in London and they explained what was happening, made me a fresh pair which were supported totally different and made my feet feel wicked. Still done with windlass (they explained to me that lifting the toes helped bring out my three arches in my feet, and that it jacks the body into a better alligned skeletal position). When I used these I was in a much better position on my ski edge to edge and more feeling. I am convinced anyhow.

Hope you get some resolutions with yours too!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

johnnyboy, One thing with footbeds or any insole that is changing your arches,instep is you MUST wear them all the time, in you normal shoes, trainers, etc.
If you do not then you collapsed arch will always object to being supported.
Can you wear them in your normal shoes, etc?

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blytht, Orthotics for skiboots can be made differently than walking orthotics. The Orthotic for walking helps control over pronation in order to enable us to supinate. A ski orthotic can be made firmer and almost stop any pronation. Therfore you can ski/should ski with your walking orthotic but shouldn't try to walk with a custom made ridgid ski orthotic. The above information depends on the assesment of your bootfitter/podiatrist to determine the reqired amount of support; If they get things wrong, you may and up at the top of this Thread. Cool

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getoutsideandplay, I have no objection to fitters using windlass to help them find STN and then moulding with a relaxed forefoot, however I think you were lucky to have footbeds moulded using this technique that work for you. Windlass normally causes a significant forefoot varus which does not exist in the majority of feet and is detrimental to the quality of the finished product. As for three arches, there is still continual discussion in the medical profession as to wether the metatarsal arch actually exists. The windlass technique also will provide more medial arch support than most people can cope with.A good footbed (I feel that the term "orthotic" has medical consonnance and prefer not to use it, we are not podiatrists) can be made with virtually any technique, as with many other things what's important is not what you're using but who's using it. As stated by SZK ski footbeds are not ideal for activities that involve bending the foot. A better plan if you need serious support but don't have custom footbeds for all your footwear is to wear good quality off the shelf support (such as Superfeet )in your everyday shoes.

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I have already started wearing the insoles I use for sport in my ordinary shoes; they have made my feet ache a little when I have been standing for a long time, but I see the logic in getting my feet more used to some arch support. I also asked, when I had the footbeds made, whether I could use them in shoes, but was told they do not flex very well and were likely to snap. Even so, I can't help feeling that they really would take an awful lot of wearing in if the pain I experienced skiing in them is anything to go by.

I'm going back to EB tomorrow to see what they can come up with, but I'm slightly concerned that it was their most experienced fitter that made the footbeds in the first place; can't blame the pimply youth for them! I accept that, as the footbeds will be repositioning my feet, there is likely to be a degree of discomfort until I get used to them, but there are limits, and these went well beyond mine.

Thanks again for all the feedback, I'll let you know if there are further developments.

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LARGEZOOKEEPER, very interested in what you do for telemark boots.

After all it is free

getoutsideandplay, anyone unqualified who is posting a footbed with a forefoot varus post needs to be very careful, bootfitters are being watched by the podiatric profession at the moment and they are waiting to pounce on bad techniques and sales practises.
less than 5% of people have a true forefoot varus, the majority of varus that is seen is caused by either the fitter positioning the foot wrongly or by the client firing the anterior tibialis muscle, this inverts the forefoot and causes the false varus..... the majority of footbeds i see that have a forefoot varus post in them have been made to compensate for another motion that is going on in the foot and ankle.

wrongly diagnosed forefoot varus that is treated with an orthotic can cause premature deterioration of the 1st MPJ and cause long term problems

as others have said there are many ways to produce a footbed or orthotic and it will depend on the skill of the fitter as to which system / technique works for the client

Little Angel

Just back from EB; they were expecting me! Good to see that someone there keeps an eye on things here.

They have lent me a green and a blue "Superfeet" off the shelf insoles to get an idea how much support my arches will tolerate, so probably off to the dry slope in next couple of days to see how I cope. If I find one of these is comfortable or at least bearable (as I do accept I will need to get used to them), will they alone be adequate, or am I still likely to benefit from further tweaking?

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johnnyboy, for some people the off the peg product works just fine, others require a custom footbed... in saying this the off the peg footbed will offer better support than a badly made custom product, it is the same old statement but without seeing your feet it is imposssible to say what is best for you

good luck Toofy Grin

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Hmmm, having made several thousand insoles around the world with windlass and experience with a variety of different systems I am confident that great results and improved alignment can be achieved. (With support up through the 1st to 5th metatarsals, shall we say, perhaps to avoid throwing around varus and techno geek terms.)

Naturally training and knowlege are important to get a well finished product and all things will never work for all people.

However, in the experience I have had 95% of the time it creates very powerful and comfortable results. Other situations call for other solutions. I have so far had ONE person I have not be able to make happy through the shared network of ideas from fellow fitters.

Different fitters do different things. Thanks goodness, or what a dry and boring existance we might have! Personally I do not think my feet come out of box - I have bespoke support that differs in construction fomr my walking shoe, to gym shoe, to tele boot to snowboard boot. All windlass based nowadays. It has helped my knee and muscle balance no end. I am a fan, converted. But I choose to swing my cat my own way and not out to convert.

Amen.

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hmmmmmm, seems like we have some new visitors from SW6 Cool

Well, some rather neutrally minded individual whose attention had been sent to this site anyhow - who is not out to plug his or her's own presence or premise. A friendly observer shall we say!

wink

You know it makes sense.

techknowski, Welcome

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Welcome to snowHeads techknowski, we may well have paid a very satisfied visit to you in the past

A snowHead

techknowski,

That may or may not be so, but they remain hugely in credit here IMO

A snowHead

techknowski, How do you swing your cat? How big is the room in which you swing it, i'm on the look out for a room big enough to swing a cat in, problem is, i don't know how big that room should be. Toofy Grin

Welcome.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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what about a manx cat? how do you swing one of those Laughing

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Well, I don't have anythng very useful to add to this discussion except that it would seem from the above description that my fave guy Cedric uses the windlass method, and the insoles he makes for me are bl**dy brilliant! OTOH, he has done a lot of extra courses etc. Very Happy

Peeps who were in the resto with me at the end of skiing will attest to my "non-Cedric" state!

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techknowski, can you expand a bit more on the windlass method, ideally with a reference to pictures so I can get an idea of what you mean? I have no idea what method has been used for my footbeds, but they've worked pretty well (now in their second pair of boots fit by the same guy here in the States). I'm interested in the advantages of getting a bit more freedom of movement in the toe box after reading some of David MacPhail's research, as well...

After all it is free

ssh, I'm gald I'm not the only one who doesn't know what the windlass method is Embarassed

I have instaprints in my boots, FWIW...

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rob@rar, looks like the Conform'ables are windlass. I'm assuming it has to do with the curving of the forefoot up starting at the mets... but what do I know?! Confused

Help!!

Footbeds - Ouch

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