The Gospel according to Geoffray and Robert.

A snowHead

I'm a huge opponent of ski reviews, whether they be here through recommendation or elsewhere, such as YT and all that nonsense.

Whilst you may see some value in it, it is mostly utter hyperbole. Length, Width, Radius, Lay Up and Profile are the principal criteria, understanding these factors and their effect on your experience are key. Materials offer certain advantages and disadvantages. Length and width dependant on your weight and height and desired environment. Radius your commitment to turns, and profile their ability to handle variable conditions. With this in mind you should simply be able to choose your prefered brand, and find a ski that fits your metrics and buy them blindly on line or in a store without testing. I'm serious and prove this daily in our store.

The problem with reviews and recommendations are based in so many variables.

Firstly Bindings, bindings have the capacity to completely change the flex and feel of any ski. If skis are being tested you should in theory test them with the exact same binding to accurately sense the small differences between models.

Secondly boots, the boot also needs to be the same when testing.

Next you, you need to be the same person, turn to turn, hour to hour, day to day, by that i mean so damn consistent that the variables of endurance, power, technique and fatigue are so tight you are able to attribute the differences to the ski rather you. Understand that this, is almost exclusively a WC skier, and even then we can observe differences turn to turn.

Finally the snow. It needs to be consistent, the resistance, the aspect, and the line.

Arguably therefore it is near on impossible to test a ski.

For those of you wanting the most important information when selecting skis, i would suggest you spend the time simply to watch and listen to the boys on the Ski essentials YT channel. Whilst they don't, can't test symmetrically, their findings and discussion points are for me, all you need to know about skis. They dive deeply into each skis physical properties, and are able to better than any other IMO, give you useful data to help you select your ski. They only name the brands and models for identification purposes, and consider all of this data precisely and simply in order to speak of all the micro differences you can expect to feel.

https://www.youtube.com/@SkiEssentials

I sincerely believe their videos are all you should need to choose a ski.
Buy the right boot for your height and weight, and chosen profile, nobody should sell you a boot based on ability, it's old school and complete nonsense. If your bootfitter starts here, put your coat back on and got grab some food.
Mount all skis if you can with a Look Pivot, if you're too light for the din range a Marker Squire is the go to binding.
If you are freeriding the Amer Shift is the binding you need, the CAST system for beefier and more abusive skiers.
If you wanna use a tech binding there is only one, ATK Raider/Freeraider.

You should be good to go!
Happy Skiing peoples.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@under a new name, Well, unfortunately unless you are using the same binding, you are not truly testing the characteristics of each ski model, that doesn't mean you can't feel a difference, however what you do feel maybe down to several other factors Mssr. Not mine or your opinion holds any weight. It's a simple fact of the process of testing anything, the control of variables to ensure correct attribution of outcome. xx

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@CH2O, yep, get that, all models provided by Concept, all on same bindings, obvs all on same boots, tested on varieties of snows,

But I don't disagree that most ski test reviews (and mfr descriptions) are +/- crap.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Tennis rackets on the other hand ... Shocked

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@under a new name, MFR descriptions are perfect, they have designed skis with very distinct characteristics, and despite their flamboyant vocabulary at times are true to the brief. All ski test reviews are false, not most, all, unless the variables are controlled precisely. They are a very general description at best, but should under no circumstances be considered correct unless as many of the variables are controlled and then a group of several skiers aggregated withstanding those variables being controlled. Testing skis with test/rental bindings is a complete waste of time, they mount you higher, giving you the impression of the ski being narrower. They inhibit flex, possibly mount you in an incorrect position to ski center, and are heavy. Those three variables alone mean you are simply not testing what you most likely then purchase. Again, not an opinion Mssr, actual fact. I would go as far as to say there are even variables when testing the 2 of the same ski, with the same binding. You could actually line up 10 pairs of the same ski in order of stiffness and the two extremes, left to right would not ski the same.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Our testing process for example. First we select brands and models that are designed for specific purposes. We don't mess around with anything other than those models occupying the highest price bracket and performance (if you like). This means we are getting the manufacturers best efforts at consistency and quality. We do this as new models and constructions are proposed. Piste/race aside, as these things remain unchanged year to year and have done for the most parts of 30 years, excluding those you admirably christen (Punter skis, sic).
These skis will then be purchased or given to us from the middle of the range, eg, the Blizzard Zero G, exists in 85-95-105mm. We will take the 95mm. It will be mounted recommended, zero° delta with the corresponding binding. That ski would be best suited to a ATK Free/raider, as it's the class leader in function and elasticity. We'll QK the ski for various mounting points, Say +/- 10mm. It'll be tested with the most appropriate boot, in this case a Tecnica Zero G in size 26, as per the build specs at both Tecnica and Blizzard. It'll be tested a season long, in the best and worst conditions through 3 skiers of different styles. We may call in the 85mm and the 105mm for the same test if we suspect there is a reason to, mostly the torsional properties being under question however generally speaking, if the same ski is available in different widths and is the exact same construction we shouldn't need to. All full core skis, are tested with race boots, and Pivot bindings using the same protocol. This builds as much consistency and feedback that is possible of an extended time period, allowing for changes in conditions of both the snow and the skier. All we are trying to achieve during this process is to see how the ski performs compared to the manufacturers descriptions so we can more precisely understand their language and appropriate the outcome. I feel this is really as close as we can get, and even then, needs to be aggregated with the proposed clients previous experiences (trauma) that emotionally inhibits their objectivity.

A quick point, perhaps unique to Cham or ski resorts in general. The main reason, by miles that our clients are in the market for new skis, is that they based their previous purchases on testing or reviews and the ski simply didn't live up to expectations. The second hand market in Cham being testament to this, it's a whopping business. Now we can attribute a portion of that to the amount of wealth or money made available in pursuit of the need to be on the newest, greatest, and most fashionable ski sometimes, however it stands true that this is our biggest purchase lever.

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[quote="CH2O"] and the ski simply didn't live up to expectations.
Are yes expectations can be difficult to live up to, especially if you rely on dubious reviews and uninformed recommendations, rather than understanding your own skiiling, goals & capabilities.

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@CH2O, I think we might be at cross porpoises. I appreciate and agree with your quant argument.

But I assert and stand by my thesis that I can tell within a few turns if I’m going to like a ski or not. That subjective feel is not quantifiable.

Twisted Evil

snow reports

I got my first pair of skis - after about 12 weeks of skiing and hiring - on the back of one of the Ski Essentials reviews - I’d accepted that there was no real possibility / feasibility of testing these particular skis prior to purchase due to lack of availability for hire so it was a bit of a leap of faith, albeit with quite a bit of research having been undertaken.
When I took the skis to the mountain I’ve got to say they were precisely as I had hoped they would be and the review from Ski Essentials was bang on the money.
I appreciate I am not an advanced skier and the spectrum of what is ‘right for me’ at this stage is perhaps therefore somewhat broader but I gotta give a thumbs up to the Ski Essentials guys - plus their videos are quite entertaining.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I'll test my own, thanks.

A snowHead

@CH2O, There's an awful lot of tosh and hype talked about skis, and an awful lot of "all-the-gear-no-idea-henrys" that have enough dosh to spend on new kit each season who fall for the latest ski-bull.

I'm with @under a new name, on this,....... "I can tell within a few turns if I’m going to like a ski or not. That subjective feel is not quantifiable." But after quite a few years of skiing I know what qualities I'm looking for out of a ski, and how the dims and construction play an immense part. I try to understand what makes a ski "ski".

A snowHead

I was once given a pair of skis to test 108mm underfoot if i remember correctly, during a ski test, perfect conditions etc etc. The Binding was a Look rental Binding, with an adjustment for Alpine GW, on arriving at the top of the gondola, and skiing off to the preparation area, it was apparent i was standing 15cm heel to snow high. With a Pivot binding i would be standing 7 cm off the snow............................what was i testing here?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

What i think is cool with the SE boys is the relevant technical data explained, the test data submitted and a debate between two guys that are not sure what to make of the data infront of your eyes. I think this is priceless, and worth more than any of your variable tests.

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@CH2O, Que?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I need* some new piste skis, coz my narrowest skis are currently 95mm and that's a bit wide for those bashed-hardpack-only days. I will go to a ski test in November at Stubai (there are two) and try out as many as I can. The conditions can't be controlled precisely, but I do my best by skiing the same red/blue loop around the chair next to the test area. Piste skis normally come with system bindings, so I should be skiing the same setup as I would buy. Any I like enough to consider purchasing, I will probably take out again the next day if I have time.

I have never bought a pair of skis I don't like, and am only getting rid of the skinniest skis because they don't fit Gripwalk boots. I wouldn't buy without testing them myself though.

*n+1 innit

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@Scarlet, That's spot on, indeed most of that kinda ski come with a fixed binding system, and looping runs trying to find a reason to hate them is the best practise. You'll be a close to it gets to getting it nailed. Enjoy! You'll see a bunch of Ski Club Les Houches kids there, my boy will be there, hope you bump into each other, following them around the pistes is an experience every skier should savour.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@CH2O, Nice! I'll look out for them.

After all it is free

This is all very interesting as I'm coming back to ski from boarding over the last 5 years.

After a few weeks back on skis I ended up with some Stockli ARs on rental. Wow wow loved it.

Then I tried both the Stockli's (a special request) and Bent 100's in the same week. Both on rental. As I was pootling about with an instructor whom I can only describe as Candide in disguise I found I could no longer ski the Stockli's. Perhaps I was too lazy a skier. Perhaps it was the style that "Candide" was shilling. I keep coming back in my mind to the Stockli's though. Maybe I should buy some and add them to the Bent's in the locker....

How and why you ski and the most important factor it seems.

Manufacturer's copy is aspirational bs for the most part. Skis may be perfect for the skier they describe but the punter buying is almost never that skier.

I always come back to real elite skiers can ski more or less anything we'll and they tend to ski what they are paid to or get for free. Below that standard you can buy a turn but your chances of doing so increase by how versatile you are in getting what you need from the skis.

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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

The problem with ski tests is they are
Tested by people who can ski very well.

Suitable for assessing a performance ski but how would that ski feel to a beginner or early intermediate?

Perhaps one a bit softer and easier to create the turning shape, at a lower force, would suit them but an experienced tester would think they were a disappointment.

snow reports

@GlasgowCyclops, I'm not actually sure any ski is difficult to flex or turn. For sure some do under less load/force than others, however simply resting a leg on a FIS Slalom ski will completely camber it, I would at best say that leg weighs 20kg. My conclusion is that profile and radius do this, not stiffness.

You know it makes sense.

How bumpy do the bumps have to be, in order to be classed as being able to ski bumps?

Swiss wall size?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Buying a ski is a bit like finding a partner.

A snowHead

@CH2O, what adaptions do you need to make to ensure the recommended bindings are set to zero delta? That’s a big factor for me when I’m looking at getting new skis, how easy it is to set up the bindings the way I want (which is zero delta).

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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@rob@rar, Well we only set up for test with either ATK Free/Raider, where a shim can be installed for ZERO°, or Pivot which run at ZERO° (-/+). We are only testing AM/Freeride/Style and FreeRando skis, so these bindings are optimal and class leaders for footprint and elasticity. Should the go to binding then be Shift, the delta throw up so many variables, but it stands alone in function, so that trumps all other factors. Should we then find Shift is "unbalanced" we mess around with coller angles, which is super simple. Race skis are pretty simple as you're generally using the binding and plate system built for the ski. Other piste skis are just of no interest to us, they're nonsense, and designed for rental but sold through as consumer product to meet quotas. Ski Touring skis that are used principally for their lightweight can do one also, there is so much missing from them the only thing about them that is a ski is the fact they look like one.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@rob@rar, lol

You can go to a demo, research online, discuss on a forum, with mates.

Ultimately you are going to have take the things out and give them a try for a couple of weeks. Most you can live with for a while, occasionally you will fall in love with one.

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@CH2O, thanks. If a ski comes with a flat top sheet or a riser plate then a shim does the job, but for skis which come with some sort of integrated binding it’s a pain or impossible to get to zero delta. I guess that most of these skis would come in the category of one’s you’re not interested in.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

[quote="Dave of the Marmottes"]

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The Gospel according to Geoffray and Robert.

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