 Poster: A snowHead
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A bus carrying schoolchildren from the Norwich area to a half-term ski holiday has been involved in a fatal crash on a German motorway, south-west of Cologne.
There are reports of one 14-year-old boy, and a reserve bus driver, killed.
A press officer for Cologne police is quoted in this report for Scotsman.com:
"The children have been traumatised and distressed. They are heading back to Britain. The teachers are with them but none of the teachers were hurt."
The BBC News site also has this more recent report.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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He would have got 3-5 years in this country, and not suspended.
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Frosty the Snowman, actually he'd have probably got 100 days community service or less
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| D G Orf, I disagree. Not only would the driver have got a long stretch, but had his employer forced or allowed him to work excessive hours then the employer would probably go down http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4066331.stm |
But that involved a case where records were knowingly ( by the employer, company secretary ) falsified.
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| hibernia wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| D G Orf, I disagree. Not only would the driver have got a long stretch, but had his employer forced or allowed him to work excessive hours then the employer would probably go down http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4066331.stm |
But that involved a case where records were knowingly ( by the employer, company secretary ) falsified. |
If he was foreign John Reid would pay him 2.5 grand to leave the country 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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hibernia,
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At a hearing at Leicester Crown Court in October, Spree, 47, from Sheerness, in Kent, admitted the manslaughter and unlawful killing of Mr Owen and Mr Kwapong.
Keymark Services pleaded guilty to the manslaughter of the two men.
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His co-accused were convicted of falsifying but he was done for the big ones. Deservedley so IMHO.
I am not saying jailing drivers is wrong, it just seems that there are some high publicity cases when toe rags without licenses & insurances get off with it.
I felt considerable sympathy with Gary Hart of Great Heck train crash infamy . Okay he was tired and he fell asleep, but I have driven past the scene several times and I bet if you had 30 attempts with a landrover and a trailer you couldnt have put it onto the rail track.
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what about the second coach which ploughed into the wreckage? Was the driver too fast/too close? He should have been able to stop. I am often appalled (and if they are behind me, scared) at the tiny distances which drivers of big vehicles, with enormous momentum, keep between them. As professional drivers they should be setting the rest of us a good example, especially in poor road conditions with stopping distances increased. And should the occupants of the first coach have been very quickly marshalled out and up away from the road? Maybe it happened too fast. Drivers here are getting the message but I am amused by how often they get out of their cars and still stand right next to them. Maybe they think they could run away if a vehicle seemed to be coming a bit close at 80 mph?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pam w,
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And should the occupants of the first coach have been very quickly marshalled out and up away from the road?
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Do you unload a coach load of sleepy kids at he side of a foreign motoway at 02.20 on a winters early morning
I imagine it would be difficult to see an unlit truck jacknifed accross an unlit road at night.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Do you unload a coach load of sleepy kids at he side of a foreign motoway at 02.20 on a winters early morning
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Yes. Anyone in a broken down vehicle on the side of a motorway in poor weather is in acute danger. We were once on a transfer coach which skidded off a mountain road from Kapaonik (after the driver had been asked twice to slow down). A thick slab of ice broke away under its wheels. The coach skidded towards the next hairpin came to a rest with its rear poised over a bad drop and the front still partly on the carriageway. The driver told us all to stay seated and so did the Inghams rep. He tried to drive forward and the coach slid back a bit further. People were being frightfully well behaved and doing what they were told but I felt very vulnerable and insisted that we should get off before he tried to move the bus again. I had visions of another coach shoving us right over the precipice. Once I had spoken up, feeling foolish and rather un-British, others agreed and everyone including kids had to stand in two foot of snow well off the road, whilst some of us went up and down the road to flag down the other equally badly driven transfer coaches which were likely to be thundering down the same road at the same stupid speed. By the time we got back on board we were all frozen, but alive. Admittedly it wasn't 2 am, and getting the kids out of the coach on the motorway would have been horrible, but it would nonetheless have been the right thing to do. Passengers on coaches (or in cars) especially in poor conditions should be briefed to have warm clothes ready to grab if they have to get out in a hurry.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This story is front page news in the local paper. The local driver of the second coach has been offered the option of making a £700 donation to charity to avoid prosucution.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| Admittedly it wasn't 2 am, and getting the kids out of the coach on the motorway would have been horrible, but it would nonetheless have been the right thing to do. |
pam w, I disagree. Having driven past the broken down coach about an hour before the incident happened, I believe that the correct decision was taken to keep them on the coach. Yes, there is always a risk of incident, but the risk of having up to 80 kids suffering from hypothermia, standing on the side of a motorway would have been greater.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The old risk assessment argument. I agree withElizabeth B, on this one.
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[quote="Helen Beaumont"]
The old risk assessment argument. I agree with[b]Elizabeth B[/b], on this one.
[/quote]
I completly disagree. 3 people were killed. Surely the pupils should have got out of the coach? It would would have prevented the loss of life of two adults and a teenager. All of them have now mised out on so much. And how do we know that they children were asleep? On a coach with their friends, on the way to a skiing resort? Chances are that they were awake and chatting.
How could it have been the right choice when so much upset has been corsed by this? The boy was 14, had lots of friends and had so much ahead of him. The secretary and the assistant bus driver had many people love them too, all of their greif could never have happened if everyone was taken out of the buses. Such a simple thing could have helped.
On a motorway, broken down, when it was dark, the passengers should have been removed striaght away!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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me, 2 of the fatalities were on the second bus that hit the crashed lorry. Being out of the bus would not have helped them. Imagine the carnage had kids been stood beside the bus attempting to get warm clothing out of the luggage holds.
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Well imagin what it must have been like for the fatalaty on the 1st bus. A pupil was killed!!
Being out of the bus would have prevented this and he would still be alive. He was 14 and had his whole life ahead of him.
But because the wrong action was taken, 3 people dies instead of 2. If it had saved a life, it woyld have all been worth it.
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me, There is no certain simple answer. So much depends on the detail of the specific incident. Where was the coach? what was the weather/visibility like? as Helen Beaumont, says 'the old risk assessment'. It is possible that there could have been more fatalities if the pupils had been standing beside the coach when the second impact occurred as Frosty the Snowman implied. I have attended car and coach crashes on major roads and motorways and the one thing they have in common is that they are all different.
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But the children had to go out in the cold anyway. There was a field nearby where the children could have waited.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I can't add anything to the following stat to back it up other than to say it is as stated by someone who went on Thames Valley Police's speed awareness course (instead of getting points & fine for speeding) but I thought it relevant for this thread. It relates to UK motorways.
your life expectancy if you stay in or around your car on the hard shoulder is a fat... 11 minutes
The reccomendation was to leave the vehicle ASAP and get behind the barrier or as far away as you can.
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I daresay that out of your vehicle and behind the barrier is the best place to be, but FenlandSkier's mate's statistic sounds incredible (so it's probably true). It takes at least that long to change a tyre, which I've managed several times on the hard shoulder; maybe I'm just lucky.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It did look an impossible number to begin with but the way statistics are manipulated for the purpose of proving things (1) I bet they can produce figures to back it up.
(1) There's a speed camera near me with a claimed 300% reduction in speed since its installation for example. At face value the figure is nonsense but the explanatory notes for it prove what 300% means, it doesn't mean reduced by 300%
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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but the point is that it is still incredibly dangerous, as it was proved.
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They should look into chartering there own aircraft for school trips abroad, I think most parents would pay a little extra for the kids to fly rather than by bus.
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You know it makes sense.
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Greig, are you serious??? School trips that go by air have far more problems than those by bus. At least with coaches, the luggage gets there at the same time as you!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Greig, you obviously haven't seen how much is costs to charter a sufficiently large aircraft on a one-off basis (actually you'd need it twice, assuming you want to come back as well). And that's assuming you could even find one - this was half term.
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Poster: A snowHead
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...not to mention that most school groups require the use of transport while in resort. One group last year had to pay in the region of £250 for a bus to take them ice skating for the evening
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| Greig, are you serious??? School trips that go by air have far more problems than those by bus. At least with coaches, the luggage gets there at the same time as you!! |
Really......I haven't heard of many plane crashes carrying school kids. Also lugguge doesn't usually go missing when travelling by privatly chartered aircraft.
Greig
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Greig wrote: |
Really......I haven't heard of many plane crashes carrying school kids. Also lugguge doesn't usually go missing when travelling by privatly chartered aircraft.
Greig |
There was the one carrying Russian school kids that collided mid air with a cargo plane while in Swiss air space. 100s killed then.
I'll have to take your word regarding privately chartered aircraft and luggage - however you are conveniently not mentioning that the kids would have to be responsible for getting their luggage from school to the airport and then onto the hotel....unless of course the parents wouldn't mind paying a bit extra for the helecopter transfers at either end!!
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That is very true. As I own a charter company myself we do actually do this very often. For example last year we took 66 kids from Norwich to Chambery, total cost was £11800 inc transport to & from the airport, £178 per passenger. The flight was just under 2 hrs, yes it may have been more than going by bus but they gained so much more time they thought it was worth it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Greig, Sounds good, how much to take Me, the Mrs and our four to Geneva over christmas? 
Or more seriously, could we CHARTER a lardyjet for the EOSB???, How many seats are there in a £11,800 Jet?
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2 go abroad 2 go skiiing cost enough anyway! Almost £600, this would stop alot of peoples parents letting their children go. the trip is only a week long!
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FAQ
