 Poster: A snowHead
|
No offence to anyone, I'm just wondering here, but I've noticed a few people recently on  , particularly the on equipment forum, asking advice on skis and stating "I have been skiing for 8/12 weeks now and can ski any piste". Now I may be cynical or naive, but these statements always get me wondering - I mean I probably have somethign like 35-36 weeks under my belt now and I don't feel confident to make a statement like that. If someone said to me "what saxophone/violin should I buy? I've been playing for a year and can play anything" I'd laugh them out of court.
So what do those of you who know better than me think? Are people making these statements being honest with themselves? Are they confusing "skiing" with "getting down any old how", potentially making them a danger to others? Have they not yet reached a level of knowledge where they begin to conceive of how much they don't know? Or is it indeed realistic to be able to "ski any piste" after 8-12 weeks' experience? And presumably 8 weeks consecutive would be different from 8 single weeks with a year between each?
Am I just a) cynical and/or b) self-doubting and tarring others with my brush?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
eng_ch, sceptical rather than cynical. It's good to be sceptical, but bad to be cynical! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| eng_ch wrote: |
| Are they confusing "skiing" with "getting down any old how" |
I think that is the crux of it.
I've less than 10 weeks myself and could quite easily go around telling everyone how I've skiied tricky blacks without even falling over once. The truth of it though would be that I'm doing one turn at a time and picking the easiest route around moguls/ice/tricky bits rather than skiing the run.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
spyderjon,  You might have something there actually...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
spyderjon, your looking god on 11 weeks .It must be the quality of your tuition 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think it matters that much... It may be bravado and all the rest...but sooner or later you will have to pit that rating against other skiers. Not so much in a competitve sense but just in the case of meeting up with new peeps and asking what shall we ski. That is where any differences get exposed.
Most people I know who can ski, don't sound off about what they can do, as they know there is no easy way of defining how good or bad you may be.
You soon get found out with " we are going down here, coming..?"
Basically, there is always someone better, quite a lot actually, get over it..
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
spyderjon, unfortunate typo, but i'll leave it in just to make you feel even better
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
there's nothing specific to skiing about this. Similar to lads who passed their driving tests six months ago mistaking their quick reactions for judgement and experience. More people think they are poor skiers than think they are poor drivers.
But some people under-play their abilities. Like saying they've "done a bit of sailing" and you discover over the course of a few days that they have done really difficult things like delivering a baby in a storm en route from New Zealand to Fiji popping out to batten down the hatches in between contractions (a real life example...their boat still had one of the wooden storm covers on when I first saw it, because a wave had stove in the window and they'd been a bit too busy to mend it). I wouldn't want to go out for a day in the mountains with someone of this ilk who said they had "done a bit of skiing" just before leaping off the nearest cliff. However, it only matters how well people think they can ski if other people (e.g. instructors, guides, potential companions) have to make decisions based on the answer. And it shouldn't take too long to distinguish between the naturally boastful or naturally bashful types. I suppose it's easier to say you can "ski anything" on a forum than when you're standing at the top of it, so maybe contributions to Snowheads tend to the boastful end of the spectrum?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
eng_ch, I'm one of those ... although my choice of words would more likely be '... and can get down any piste' ... but by that I think I mean 'ski' anyway ...
Personally I would never call myself an advanced or expert skier (I am firmly an intermediate!), BUT I believe that I have learned a 'toolbox' of techniques for skiing on piste, and that regardless of gradient or condition I believe I have now used these techniques to get down any marked piste I have encountered ... and hence I call this 'skiing them'. As to whether a style judge would give me top marks, I don't know ...  (certainly not for icy moguls!)
So I think you are being self-doubting ... I don't know at what stage using the techniques / turn types you have learned to ski different conditions and gradients suddenly becomes 'skiing' then if it is not ... well ... 'skiing'???
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
eng_ch, I have now have about 14 weeks under my belt, but have met a lot of 5 week skiers that are much better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, so is it a confidence thing? Or the time between "sessions"? Or is it simply that some people are natural athletes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
eng_ch, I think a combination of all 3. I started skiing after having my knee re-built twice. This was on top of 2 other ops all on the same knee. It all started when I was 8 and I knelt on a sewing needle that had been dropped on the carpet. It snapped in 2, half went into the underlay and the other half went straight through the kneecap and ended up floating around in the knee undetected for a while. I have crao sight which doesnt help either
Sorry about the deviation but it is a lovely eye watering tale. As a result I have always been a conservative skier always liking o stay in my comfort zone. Some fit speed freak with lots of guts and balance is always going to ski well and come on quickly, given good tuition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
some people are natural athletes
|
definitely - and sheer fitness and strength counts, too. Two of my husband's nephews were skiing red runs quite decently after four days. One was the Southern Africa under 18 squash champion, the other a light, wiry, very well co-ordinated lad who played good level field hockey regularly. It had taken me forever to get to the level they attained in a week. I don't find that the amount of time people have spent on snow is much of a guide. I have skied with people who have been skiing regularly for years and who are really quite useless. On the other hand one participant on a Sally Chapman course I did in December some years ago had had one week on snow the previous March, fallen in love with the sport, practised during the sumer on the Gloucester dry ski slope, under the guidance of some friends who instructed there, and had reached an impressive level by the following December, in a class with people who had been skiing, and having lessons, for years.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
It also depends on how concentrated the experience is. I would expect someone who did 11 weeks in a season to become reasonably competent, someone who did a week once a year in different resorts for 11 years with a couple of days to get back in the groove each time would find it more difficult.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I think that fitness goes a long way and a no fear attitude. I have skied 3 weeks now and feel that I could ski any on piste slope no problem. Technique probably not great but on my 2nd week skiing in Les Deux Alpes i was able to ski all the black slopes there, although I maybe fell twice on them. I only had lessons on my first week in Val di fassa in Italy.
In my case the reason i think i progressed so quick was a no fear, what the hell attitude. If you fall, big deal and get up again, my first 2 days were spent more on my backside than on my feet. At that I went down my first black slope on my 5th day.
Also I would be very fit as I play alot of football and pre season (hard slogging) training would start in December so, by time skiing comes would be in good shape. Any of the rest of the footballers that went as well picked it up very quickly as well, but some of the group that aren't in as good shape progressed much slower.
Totally love it now, so will be doing it as often as i can.
Thats all on marked pistes so haven't done much off piste apart form through tree's in Pomporovo, so that may be a different story altogether.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
it's amazing how your personal standards / expectations change.
when I started out, my goal was to be able to be out on the mountains, ski a bit without looking a complete fool, enjoy skiing with friends, etc.
after being able to ski a bit, my next goal was all of the above, plus I was fed up being the last one to arrive at at place everyone was waiting, just to see them all head off as soon as I'd arrived, they'd had a rest while waiting for me, I didn't get the chance.
when I'd achieved not being the last to arrive, then I started to be first to set off / first to arrive, as I found that I didn't like skiing in the middle of a group, too many nutcases for my liking, skiing too close to others at high speed
then I began to ski at the back on purpose, let the nutcases have their fun, look after some of the beginners, pick up the fallers, etc., plus if I waited until last and left a gap, I could blast down at insane speeds 
now I ski to suit myself, adjusting my skiing to the group I'm with, choosing a fast group to ski with or spending a day with the beginners / casual skiers, both are equally enjoyable
I don't worry too much about grading myself, and I probably lack a lot of technical polish / style - but - skiing is great fun, as long as your ability allows you to achieve what you want to and you're enjoying it, that's all that matters
AW
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Yoda, that link moves faster than I do on a black run, that's for sure
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yoda - I'll never ski with that guy - not if he makes people ski trees at that speed 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You can tell how long someone has skied, pretty much. Or rather you can tell if they have skied a lot or have progressed quickly. I think there is a difference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
eng_ch, could also be a difference in attitude between locals and holiday skiers. I am certainly a lot more laid back about lunches and coffees when I know I am not getting on a plane the next day.
On the other hand, I remember you saying you had not skied the black run in Hoch Ybrig. I could imagine a confident 5 week skier getting down that without problems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
nessy, you're right about the black at Hoch-Ybrig, but I'm sure that's a mental thing. Had it been open last season once we were back from our March trip I'd have been more than happy to do it. I think the thing is I'm uncomfortable having no margin for error. I may know rationally (because I've been told by instructors) that I could probably do any piste but the very fact that a "black" designation is open ended means I could end up on something with no margin for error. It's probably also to do with a constant awareness of the financial consequences of an injury when I don't get sick pay
I think you're also right about the difference in attitude between locals and holiday skiers. I never push to do that "one last run" because I know I can always go out again next weekend. For me that makes the whole experience more relaxed because there's no sense of obligation to make the most of the time.
Maybe we should hook up sometime this winter?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
PhillipStanton, the clip I wanted to post is where a, shall we say, "good" skier says that the best thing that ever happened to him was when he saw himself on video. Only then did he understand what he had been doing. However that clip was the nearest I had recorded so I thought I'd try to make the point anyway. (Part of the point being that people may think they are being honest with themselves, but that is because they don't realise how they actually ski. That revelation came to a good friend of mine some years ago on our first Ali Ross trip). I shall transcribe that bit and adjust/add to the link accordingly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| eng_ch wrote: |
| No offence to anyone, I'm just wondering here, but I've noticed a few people recently on , particularly the on equipment forum, asking advice on skis and stating "I have been skiing for 8/12 weeks now and can ski any piste". Now I may be cynical or naive, but these statements always get me wondering - I mean I probably have somethign like 35-36 weeks under my belt now and I don't feel confident to make a statement like that. If someone said to me "what saxophone/violin should I buy? I've been playing for a year and can play anything" I'd laugh them out of court. |
I used to think that until a few years ago when I skied the Grand Couloir in Courchevel with a friend and his mate who I hadn't met before. His mate was boarding (apparently had never skied) and seemed to come down the couloir smoothly and in control. He certainly looked much more confident than I was feeling. He was also pretty good on the regular blacks and reds around the resort. I asked him how long he had been boarding and he said that was his 10th day! I didn't believe him, but a couple of other people confirmed it was true. Apparently he was a very talented sportsman, and it must have helped that the part of his brain dealing with fear was clearly missing. So I no longer pay quite so much attention to how many weeks a person has been on snow - sadly I have to accept the fact that there are many people who make much quicker progress than I ever did. Perhaps they are in a minority, but it's certainly possible to get very good, very quickly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar.org.uk, fair enough. Maybe it's actually just my linguistic radar on alert - why the need for both bits of info in that case? Simply "I ski anything on piste" is the only material information if it's accurate. Or is it hubris - "I can ski anything and I've only been skiing for x weeks" [captain subtext| "Haven't I progressed fast, I must be brilliant"[/captain subtext]. Having said that, experience does count, suirely? I mean you can pass the driving test after a week's crash course but that doesn't make you a good driver as you haven't the experience. With both skiing and driving, whilst you may pick up the fundamental mechanics of the activity quickly, by definition the conditions you will have encountered will be very limited if you've only been on snow/the road for a couple of months in total.
I'm probably just over-analysing again
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
| "I ski anything on piste" |
i think that statement is often a bit of a giveaway in itself. better skiers usually give a bit more detail. eg:
"enjoy steeps, a bit untidy in moguls, beginning to enjoy off-piste in good conditions"
i would assume someone who said the latter was a better skier than someone who said the quote at the top of this post (unless the person saying it provided some evidence that they were a seriously good skier)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Arno wrote: |
| "enjoy steeps, a bit untidy in moguls, beginning to enjoy off-piste in good conditions" |
This sounds remarkably like me trying to get help in a ski hire shop with ski rental and choice of skis to try when asked how well I ski ... I always feel remarkably self conscious of over-selling myself in the face of a local who has been zipping down slopes since he was 4 ... or underselling myself and getting skis that won't help me progress. Whatever I say can usually end up being interprutted as 'I ski anything on piste'
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Arno, I agree.
It's a bit like some people who says they spend "Most of their time off piste" - I've heard people say that, then discovered their definition of "off piste" was going 2 metres beyond the piste markers for a couple of turns. Sure, it's not on piste, but it's not quite the same as you, or the other guys who hike for turns in deep powder, and only hit the piste when it is the only way to get back to a lift.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
This is a really difficult question. Like others I thought I had 'cracked it' at the end of my first few weeks/season of skiing and that fron an impossibly slow start. I now realise ( and no small part of that is down to video evidence) that I am no better than some people after they have been on the slopes a couple of days ... but still in my mind I would like to think that I am better than I obviously am. The aspiration is still there just dosed with some healthy realism ...
My SO is totally the opposite ... describes herself as useless even though she has been skiing longer than she will admit ... only a few years REALLY started carving properly all her turns apparently.
The only time she demonstates what she can do is when someone else says how good they are. What is it with ladies that they always want to put blokes firmly in their place ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
The more you know, the more you realise you have along way to go....IMV
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
JT, true .... and the more you realise you'll probably never get there (major lifestyle departures excepted). 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Arno wrote: |
| ...i'd been ski touring with some AWFUL skiers! |
You haven't skiied with me. I can redefine words like that!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JT, I agree but would add that; as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian,
Yep, athletic tendancies aside, which help...its all about time on snow to get good......
I'll stick my neck out here and say it can't be done in, say 20 weeks...if you want a figure...
Having said that, a friend tele's and he is pretty well uncatchable off-piste (for me) and I doubt he has 20 weeks... so I'm talking alpine here..
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Frosty the Snowman,
....I think...!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JT, Courtesy of Donald Rumsfeld of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
