 Poster: A snowHead
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Yup that's right, there's a proposal to remove most of the winter sports infrastructure/uplift on the Coire na Ciste side of the mountain effectively almost halving the lift served area of the mountain, removing some of the best advanced skiing in Scotland and heralding the increased decline of winter sports in Cairngorm and Aviemore.
This has already been brought up in another thread here but I thought it worth having a more dramatic (but accurate) thread name that people will notice more because it's an important issue and we should all make our voices heard whilst this is at the consultation stage.
Please don't think this doesn't affect you, even if you've never skied in Scotland, I'm in the south of England but I want to see the home grown industry available and thriving. Remember that flights to the Alps and elsewhere might one day get very expensive and in a good snow year you might just get the urge to head north - it'll be too late to complain if the flagship Scottish ski area has already gone and the others are declining as a result.
So, what can we do:
1. Take 10 minutes to read and respond to the consultation document that the Forestry Commission, the proposed new owners of the area, have on their website here and e-mail it to them.
2. Write to the press, in particular the Strathspey and Badenoch Herald, who are already covering the issue here, and vote in their poll (right of page) to show your opposition to what is happening.
3. Read the other thread here and more on the Winterhighland website here
SUPPORT THE HOME WINTER SPORTS INDUSTRY, DON'T LET IT DIE!
PS. Sorry mods for posting a second thread on this but I do think it's very important and the more dramatic headline will alert more people - is there any chance of making this sticky and/or getting a piece on the main pasge of the site covering this?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PPS. The proposal is inserted in paragraph 67 of the consultation document, under "FUTURE MANAGEMENT CONSIDERATIONS", and in detail proposes:
| Quote: |
As part of the transfer it is proposed that a short term Environmental Improvement Programme be considered to improve the estate.
Subject to planning this would include;
• the removal of redundant skiing infrastructure:
o Chairlift No 10 - Coire-na-Ciste
o Chairlift No 11 - West Wall
o Ski Tow No 5 - Fieciell T-bar
o Ski Tow No 12 - Aonach Poma
o Foundations of former Ski Tow No 16
• demolition and removal of the former ticket office and toilets at the
Coire na Ciste car-park, and
• the scaling down of roading above the Coire Cas car |
Thought I'd add that for information 
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 7-09-06 13:11; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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roga, well played - just sent my completed opposition form.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks that's brilliant dg3 
Has anyone got any ideas as to how we can best spread the word to ski clubs etc round the UK? I'd guess a lot of clubs in the north of England for example would be directly concerned, anyone a member of a club or got any ideas?
Does the SCGB still have a forum?
There's snowboarders as well who'll be concerned!
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brian
brian
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roga, good idea, my response is in already. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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A huge shame. I have very fond memories of the Ciste gully and council-house-sized slushy bumps on a spring day. West Wall chair was a place of rest while waiting for the next assault. Trouble is, that was 20-30 years ago and the chairs already seemed relatively old (someone here will be able to accurately say) so there is a certain inevitibility that they'll need replacing at some stage soon anyway (and we know that'll never happen). Cost of up keep, health & safety and other hidden costs we can't see mean that there will always be an insurmountable business reason why they'll go, let alone any arguments from environmentalists. Looking on the positive side, and assuming there's enough snow, it will make for a decent off piste area but, don't tell me, we won't be allowed in there!
I'll go get my form in now.
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For snowboarders contact Duncan Worrall at SCUK, try to get it posted to adrenalin trip as well.
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To save me wading through, why are they proposing to close the lifts?
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brian
brian
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laundryman, cost cutting.
Actually, they've already allowed these lifts to fall into various states of disrepair, eg. I don't think either the Fiacaill t-bar or Aonach pomas have cables or motors any more, it's just the towers.
They haven't run any of them for several years either and to be fair, you can still access most of the good terrain on the Ciste side by the WW poma, however when there is snow it's frequently closed due to avalanche risk. The chairs have been a big miss, you used to be able to park in the Ciste car park and get up the mountain that way, now you have to join the throng in Coire Cas and queue for tickets/funicular there. The WW poma is not the most reliable lift either whereas the chairs were much better.
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brian, - or anyone - do you think that the cost cutting is necessary (in the sense of insufficient revenue to maintain all the infrastructure) or is it to down to bad management or some ulterior motive (e.g. a green agenda, just to pick an example)?
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brian
brian
Guest
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laundryman, good question.
CML would say there is insufficient revenue. I think they have taken a decision to move away from skiing and just have the funicular as a year round tourist attraction.
Now if there are good conditions, the area is overcrowded and there are big queues with "redundant" lifts sitting there rusting idly. People just won't tolerate that these days, so they don't come back. They don't even seem to be considering the one thing that could really make a difference, a modern snowmaking system.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| They haven't run any of them for several years either |
It might of interest to Snowheads that the Coire Na Ciste and West Wall Chairlifts have actually been spinning quite regularly this year, both at times in winter to get lifties to the West Wall Poma when there wasn't snow lower down and it was serving the Ciste Fairway and more frequently during the summer to get staff and materials in and out for Snow Fence replacement and other upkeep work by the West Wall Poma.
When we went up for our mid-summer slide, the carrier with the streacher on it was at the foot of the Ciste Chair, when we came back down it was at the top of the Ciste Chair and motor housing was still warm to touch! All the West Wall chairs were also run down the Ciste Chair line to the carpark. Yes they are in varing degrees of decay, the West Wall Chair though of the four lifts is in the best condition and the last to have been in public service. That said these old Mueller lifts are practically bombproof, both the Ciste Chairlifts remain mechanically operable.
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brian
brian
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Winterhighland, very interesting indeed.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Sage wrote: |
| Quote: |
They don't even seem to be considering the one thing that could really make a difference, a modern snowmaking system.
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They would never be allowed to put one in. The Environmental lobby is too powerful. 
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You see that is something that is a factor, yes, but environmental lobbies are only too powerful when there's nothing to counterbalance them. I'm personally highly sympathetic to environmental issues but I'm not convinced that there isn't a good argument for snowmaking because proper evidence has never been publicly available.
I am told on good authority, from sources within Cairngorm Mountain Ltd., that studies into this have been carried out with individuals from at least one company in Europe involved and two issues led to it being rejected, namely the weather conditions, the wind being likely to blow any snow away from the pistes it was manufactured for, and chemicals seeping into the ground from the snowmaking process in this environmentally sensitive area.
However, I don't know how long ago this was investigated, how many systems were looked into and whether there are less environmentally damaging forms of snowmaking now developed. I think at the very least we deserve to be told exactly what has and hasn't been investigated but whenever the issue is brought up there's a stony silence from CML - I find that strange to say the least!
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Poster: A snowHead
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The use of Chemicals to facilitate snow formation snow making is old hat, it's an old technology that has been rendered unnecessary due to continuing advancements in nossle technology. CairnGorm is not the only ski area in the world that suffers from high winds. Rather than aspiring to creating powder like surfaces, snowmaking real role in such a climate/landscape is more likely to be base building; as more often than not it is getting the initial base down that is half the battle, esp in places like the Cas Gunbarrel.
If winds are high, heavier or wetter snow can be manufactured. It is also possible depending on weather conditions to make different types of snow by varying pressures and air/water mix. Also the wind factor can be partly countered by being creative and thoughtful about where to make snow as well as what kind of snow to make. If there is likely to be significant re-distribution of snow on a Westerly Wind during or shortly afterwards, make snow on the Ciste Fairway, a proportion of what is made that blows away will be trapped in the gully of the Ciste Bowl. Make snow on the Lady in an East wind and what does escape will get trapped by the M1 Poma fences.
In cold weather blast very wet snow over the narrow burn courses like the Gunbarrel, eventually it will bridge and it will set to absolute concrete giving a solid base, slightly less wet snow on top to give a less icy and more adhesive surface to the base, after which all natural snow will go base depth building not to trying to get the initial snowbridge to form. Undoubtedly CairnGorm presents challenges for snowmaking, but some novel and different uses of snowmaking could still allow snowmaking to make a difference.
How long ago was this survey done and did it involve any detailed modelling? There has been a trend since and including 2003 for winters that have long spells that are certainly cold enough but amount to effective winter drought conditions. Perfect snowmaking conditions! As even the Met Office suggest that we are seeing the turning point back into the negative multi-decadal phase of the NAO, we may be in for considerably more of these situations, rather than the cool zonality interspersed with blocking that the last negative phase brought in the 70s and at least the first half of the 80s.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There you go folks, I thought if I asked the question I'd get a good answer from Winterhighland who has experience and knowledge of the technologies involved.
Based on what's said above I'd guess the investigation into snowmaking was undertaken a few years back but my opinion is that it now provides a convenient excuse for inaction from a management that is seemingly no longer fully commited to winter sports.
All the more reason for our voices to be loud and clear I'd say!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The thoughts of winterhighland,given his many years of experience at Cairngorm and in North America, o really give more ammunition to those of us who believe that snowmaking is one of the ways forward at the gorm. The reticence of CML confirmed by roga 's conversation with someone 'close' to the organisation confirms this.
I find this all very disconcerting and just reinforces the view that I have already formed over the past 3 or 4 years as a regular skier at Cairngorm. That is - CML have embarked upon a programme of managed decline.
The lifts in Coire na Ciste have been left alone and not used to provide punter uplift because they wished them to eventually be scrapped.
CML now describes these lifts as redundant and winterhighland has confirmed elsewhere in this forum that this is not the case. CML are unwilling to spend the money maintaining and running these lifts because 'most' of their customers are beginners or unfamiliar with the area and thus not keen or able to visit the 'expert' areas provided in the Coire na Ciste. Therefore they see it as not importsnt in their money making schemes.
The principal mover (Chairman or some such title) at Aviemore and Cairngorms Destination management is Bob Kinnaird who is CEO at Cairngorm Mountain. I find it sickeningly ironic that one of their goals is to establish themselves as a world class mountain resort to rival the like of Whistler, Park City, Kaprun and Zell Am See. They wish to see visitor numbers increasing by up to 8% during the winter months. How is closing lifts and reducing skiing terrain going to help achieve this objective?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| roga wrote: |
SUPPORT THE HOME WINTER SPORTS INDUSTRY, DON'T LET IT DIE!
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Did you write the Natives news story as well?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| davidof wrote: |
| roga wrote: |
SUPPORT THE HOME WINTER SPORTS INDUSTRY, DON'T LET IT DIE!
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Did you write the Natives news story as well? |
I sent them what was basically a press release and they checked the story out - I take no responsibility for the final news story posted on the site though 
Why do you ask?
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| roga wrote: |
I sent them what was basically a press release and they checked the story out - I take no responsibility for the final news story posted on the site though
Why do you ask? |
Just curious, I wondered whether you were a natives regular.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Just curious, I wondered whether you were a natives regular. |
I'm not a regular no, I use the site for info sometimes but don't work in the industry and as I understand it that's who the site primarily caters for - I work with those pesky computer things
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I wonder if they've even considered the new snowmaking technology highlighted on MSS recently, that can make snow right up to +30 deg C? I very much doubt it. I hope that Bob's hands are tied, because if not I should be bitterly disappointed that he left BASI for this!
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Why are they describing the Coire na Ciste lifts as "redundant"?
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brian
brian
Guest
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David Murdoch, because they won't run them !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski,
Last winter was cold but very dry in Jan and Feb so the temp is not a problem. Indeed at the Lecht where they do have snow making on the nursery slopes the Eagle tow was open 119 days!!
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| easiski wrote: |
| I wonder if they've even considered the new snowmaking technology highlighted on MSS recently, that can make snow right up to +30 deg C? I very much doubt it. I hope that Bob's hands are tied, because if not I should be bitterly disappointed that he left BASI for this! |
Highlighted on Snowheads already...
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=644&highlight=cannon+mountain
A snowmaking sytem with a prefreezing unit will cost an absolute fortune to run.
I was looking at the site on the pistemap. It probably needs a four seater high speed chair from the parking to the summit with a mid-station in case snow is poor. All the rest of the surface lifts should be removed. There is around 550 meters of vertical so a lift would cost around 3 million pounds. Probably add another half million for a bit of snowmaking on key spots. Anyone know the finances of the lift company?
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You know it makes sense.
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It seems to me that we need to make a few basic facts more widely known and not campaign for all the lifts but enough to keep the area going.
The fact that they are not running the lifts and then claiming they were redundant, because not used.
The fact that the best skiing for good skiers will be only accessed by walking or skinning (so the good skiers will leave the area and go elsewhere)
The fact that the previous objections to snow making are either out of date (chemicals) or can be managed, with new attitudes.
Often the case for something is fogged by trying to say too much, or by claiming too much.
Do we need to object to the Fieciell and Aonach Poma or former tow foundations going?
I have to admit I have not skied in the area for many years so I am out of date. The most recent times I Skied in Scotland were at Nevis Range and Glencoe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| davidof wrote: |
I was looking at the site on the pistemap. It probably needs a four seater high speed chair from the parking to the summit with a mid-station in case snow is poor. All the rest of the surface lifts should be removed. There is around 550 meters of vertical so a lift would cost around 3 million pounds. Probably add another half million for a bit of snowmaking on key spots. Anyone know the finances of the lift company? |
Certainly the best solution, but unlikely to be accepted since they are now allergic to new building. However in a conservative situation it is often worth suggesting the roof be taken off the house to let in light so that people end up accepting the compromise of a new window they might otherwise object to.
(By the way, they have never been willing to accept a lift to the summit (100m vertical above the top station): if I remember right, because of rare Ptarmigans (Sp?) nesting up there.
It would have opened up the great steep skiing above the main ski area, though, which you now have to climb a little to get to (perhaps not such a bad thing?)
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Poster: A snowHead
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On the contary there is outline planning permission for a Marquis Well (Summit) tow on CairnGorm and this area is part of the leased area that forms part of the official ski area. Ptarmigan do live and nest within the developed ski area so are not particularly an issue. Indeed the highest Ptarmigan population concentrations in the world are found on CairnGorm Mountain and within the Glenshee Ski Area!
A summit tow would add around 300ft of snow sure vertical in a natural snow field that would require little fencing, together with the Ptarmigan and Ciste tows it would give around 800ft of vertical (more than the whole of the Lecht) in the Top Basin all at a level starting 700ft above the top of the Lecht.
The Fiacaill Tow is the least loss, the Aonach Poma is the lift I will probably miss the most, but in terms of flexability and operations the Ciste Chairlifts are the most useful/important to safe.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Winterhighland, The Aonach poma was an inportant link back to the Cas side, however, and there is no other, apart from going right back up to Ptarmigan and down the Cas side. With skiing to the Ciste car park mostly not possible and that little cafe closed, then I would say Aonach is a vital cog .. (of course it was always one of my faves so I'm biased. Very useful for teaching good classes too as it rarely gets mogulled. I would be sad to see the Fiacall tow going, as I also used that a lot, but you can access that area from the Cas so ......
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interesting. Shows I shouldn't express opinions when I don't really know what I'm talking about. But why didn't they build there at the start then?
It's a very long time ago that I skied that steep (40 degree?) slope from the summit down to the left (as you look down). There were several ways down. I can't remember if the traverse existed then.
Is that much skied now or isn't there usually enough snow?
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brian
brian
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snowball, coronation wall ? It was skiable quite a bit March/April this year.
In a loosely linked way, here's a turns-are-for-girls approach to skiing Jacob's Ladder in Coire an t-Sneachda
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm beginning to think we should organise a snowheads bash up to Bonnie Scotchland after the Hogmany. It would be like carrying coals to Newcastle to fly out from the French Alps to ski in the highlands... but I've always fancied a few days touring out there if anyone is interested.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Winterhighland, - ever thought of taking over from Bob Kinnaird?
You obviously have the local knowledge, technical know how and love for the sport that would be welcomed by the local skiers. I think it’s time for Bob to step down – the CML has long lacked any real drive to make the mountain and Aviemore a real ski centre.
When they are building hugely environmentally damaging ski domes in Dubai with large a power plant pumping carbs into the air, what’s a few more inches of snow going to do to the Cairngorm?
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brian
brian
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Looks like good fun. I did once do a day tour a few miles south of there - in heavy cloud and a wind that blew people over!
If it were after the 16th April I'd love to join you, but I'll be busy setting up a big exhibition of my work in Halifax (Dean Clough) before that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Unless I go on the EOSB, but my wife might be more tolerant of a short extra trip!
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Just giving this a bump - the debate, and campaign goes on and here are a couple of press articles that may be of interest:
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FAQ
) and would be happy to watch you on Jacob's Ladder 
