 Poster: A snowHead
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Without wishing to kick off the age old argument again, was interested to read the following :-
http://www.alpineexperience.com/news.html
Only one side of the story, but is this a start of a campaign by the licensed professionals to stop the practise of off-piste 'hosting' ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Guvnor, that is an interesting read and the bit I guess you're referring to says:
We’ve had some interesting feed-back about comments made by Andreas and I on March 6th. Here’s Andreas' view of what he saw;
‘At the top of the Signal lift I saw a big group of 12 people with a Ski Club Rep. I thought to myself, ‘surely he’s not going in to Combe de Signal’ but sure enough, they went around the avalanche danger sign and into what we call the “sunny bowl”. It was a complete white out, you could hardly see at all and there where over 50 cm of fresh snow. I was going in to ski a particular line that I trust safe even in those conditions and had very good skiers with me. I had people who I knew and trusted, and I knew their capabilities. It was a morning for people who knew exactly where they were, and even for the experienced it was tough navigating. As I entered the bowl I caught up with the back of the Ski Club group and saw at least 3 or 4 fallen over in the powder as they where all skiing and falling together, which is why I could see them in the flat light! I said something to one of the last members of the group and he justified being there was safe because they had seen guides skiing it before! This is outrageous to me since you can’t make a call on those grounds and a lot about skiing off piste is how you behave and exactly how you ski a certain slope and manage your group, and just because there are tracks doesn’t mean that a slope can’t avalanche!!
The week after I saw another Ski Club Rep in the Familial with 60 cm of fresh, dense snow and once again, people were falling over and struggling. Anyway, as Wayne pointed out, we’ve seen more and more Reps in the off piste, and not just off the side of the piste but in some fairly serious places. I also spotted a Rep leading group of teenagers in a “ski school snake line” at half term, which I captured on video.’
To be a professional in the mountains takes many years of training and experience and the fact that the Reps are taking people off piste and for no cost is disrespectful to the qualified professionals working here, and to the Ski Club Members as well.
We have spoken to many ski school directors and president of the Mountain Guides Association and dear Ski Club member, please don’t think that Alpine Experience is alone in thinking that it has gone a bit too far!
We think the Ski Club is a great organisation. You have done much for the sport of skiing and you organise wonderful trips and information for your members. You have an excellent social guiding service for members, which no one has a problem with and everyone can accept, but only if it remains on the piste and there is no teaching involved.
Any comments from Ski Club Members / Reps / Directors are very welcome! It is a very interesting debate you have going on your website!
 Incredible. This deserves to be on the "Changes to SCGB..." thread.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller, Indeed - and also the following :-
'.........Andreas said he saw a Ski Club Rep (not allowed to ski off-piste with guests) groping around in the flat-light in the Combe du Signal. Andreas wasn’t impressed as the Ski Club seem to be skiing off-piste more and more with clients, as well teaching on-piste, which is another no-no. We may need to approach the Ski Club, along with some of the other ski schools and the Bureau des Guides, and put a stop to their shenanigans.........'
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Guvnor, the name(s) of the rep(s) concerned can be found on the SCGB website if you know the dates of the incidents. Perhaps they'd like the opportunity to have their say on this.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, That is certainly what Alpine Experience have requested in their posting. I'd be interested to see the response from the SCGB.....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
'.........Andreas said he saw a Ski Club Rep (not allowed to ski off-piste with guests) groping around in the flat-light in the Combe du Signal. |
How can taking a group into this area be considered within the current SCGB guide lines 
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| Quote: |
| the fact that the Reps are taking people off piste and for no cost is disrespectful to the qualified professionals working here |
Just goes to show that OP cares not a hoot about safety, but purely that the "professionals" are not getting their cut. Clearly this spat is all about money, nothing else.
Bah!
Next...
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James the Last, I'm the OP ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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James the Last, Not sure I agree with you there.... IMHO there may be an element of money involved but not in the way you suggest.... at the end of the day I don't believe than anybody involved in skiing in any way wants to see people put in uneccessary danger which could result in fatality... resorts don't want a reputation for being graveyards as it affects business longer term, and most instructors I've met are pretty genuine people with the safety of not just their own clients but all users of their home resort as a primary concern...
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James the Last, I think it certainly seemed - especially from the initial version of the OP on the AE page - that that was the principle motivation. However the details which were subsequently added - if true - are embarrassing and represent poor leadership by the rep concerned. On the SCGB forum there has been a discussion of this - and there may be some inconsistencies and dubious interpretations (particularly of whether teaching is going on) - but there still seems a charge to be answered.
On the other hand it was only 6 months ago that the VdI four, their friends, and even some interesting new posters here seemed to be trying to hijack control of the club and insist on off-piste skiing in scenarios which the club's Mountain Guide Advisers felt no longer appropriate.
Now where is DG when you need him? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I wonder if any of the VdI Four were amongst those described flailing around in the deep snow
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Now where is DG when you need him?
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stoatsbrother, he's resting but he may or may not be aware of this depending on who asks. You ain't seen me roit?
IMV the balance of probabilities are that the account on the AE site is true. This also based on what I've seen with my own eyes and on what we've discussed here before. Isn't it just a matter of time before we're discussing another unnecessary death?
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Apologies, OP was not the author of that delightful note.
Whoever it was made his position PERFECTLY clear to me.
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm sure there is an element of protectionism at play but also a more important element that "guiding" isn't seen as fungible in terms of risk and quality of experience. I don't have a lot of sympathy with the view that you are only ever "safe" with a qualified mountain guide but most responsible SCGB groups I have seen have a local guide alongside the rep (maybe these are organised holidays). If I was a rep I'd be pretty keen to ensure the std of my punters was at competent self rescue before taking them somewhere hairy, flailing around on the first pitch probably wouldn't meet this. There would truly be no point to the SCGB in my eyes if no off piste was permitted but then I'm not a member anyway.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Where exactly is this run? What's the average slope angle? Any drop-offs? Any avalanche threat from adjacent slopes? Are you committed to the route once you start? Or can you cut out and back to the piste at any/some points? Can you get lost?
Whatever the dangers, it seems the guide was happy to ski past the SCGB group and leave them there without talking to the leader. Having said that, it sounds like this large group were trashing the slope in a rather rude way. Also. who owns the off-piste anyway?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Also. who owns the off-piste anyway? |
I'm pretty sure it owns me 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Let me just say that I know Andreas well and have the greatest respect for him and the AE team. I have also seen ski club groups skiing potentially dangerous slopes at high avalanche risk "following the guides", but not since the new guidelines were issued.
Andreas raises two points:
i. off piste guiding
ii. ski teaching
both are legal in France as long as their is no financial arrangement between the teacher or guide and his group. As Arno can no doubt confirm the Beagles do (i) although both they and the ski club seem to be moving towards using more professional guides. I would defend the right of both the Ski Club and Eagles to guide off piste as long as they don't pass themselves off as professionals with pro level qualifications.
Whether you consider either i, or ii a good idea is another point and you may also debate whether the ski club is a club or a commercial organisation. I think it shows aspects of both.
It is maybe impolite for a guest organisation to compete so directly with professionals in a resort and that would be up to their hosts to reflect on. They would probably decide that the Ski Club put quite a lot of business the way of guides and ski teachers and the benefits outweigh some of the problems. I would imagine that if the ski club were overtly teaching on a regular basis there would be problems - even though French ski clubs teach and you will see groups of friends teaching in French resorts every weekend without the slightest murmur from the ESF or others.
Note that I don't know what the Tea Club's current guidelines are on guiding for reps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof, there is a certain amount of whining amongst certain of the beagles that there are too many guided/commercial trips on the calendar; OTOH there aren't a huge amount of people stepping up to be leaders/organisers. this is a shame. there is a big difference between the way in which eagles tours and SCBG groups are organised which (from my point of view) puts eagles trips on safer ground. that said, i reiterate my point made on other threads that SCGB reps' training isn't that different from what is required of ISIA instructors (at least through the BASI system) so, provided reps stay on similar terrain to ISIA instructors, I am not sure how anyone can have an issue with the principle, albeit that there will always be incidents where people do stuff they shouldn't
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Arno wrote: |
| i reiterate my point made on other threads that SCGB reps' training isn't that different from what is required of ISIA instructors (at least through the BASI system) |
What does the Ski Club rep training cover? I'm just about to complete BASI's ISIA level Mountain Safety course and would be interested to see what the comparisons are between the two training schemes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Where exactly is this run? |
If you take the Signal drag lift and go past the offpiste warning notices you enter Le Grand Vallon. This is a large valley which offers off piste skiing.
| Quote: |
| What's the average slope angle? |
Not sure.
Yes
| Quote: |
| Any avalanche threat from adjacent slopes? |
Yes
| Quote: |
| Are you committed to the route once you start? |
Yes
| Quote: |
| Or can you cut out and back to the piste at any/some points? |
Not untill the bottom
It depends how good you navigaton skills are, especially in poor weather.
A few weeks ago i was party to a discussion betwen 2 SCGB reps who were discussing if they could take members into this area. 1 Rep said NO 1 Rep said YES. The eventual agreement was if they went into this area and had an accident the SCGB insurance would probably not cover them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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PJSki, how do you think the club should handle this sort of thing?
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| A few weeks ago i was party to a discussion betwen 2 SCGB reps who were discussing if they could take members into this area. 1 Rep said NO 1 Rep said YES. The eventual agreement was if they went into this area and had an accident the SCGB insurance would probably not cover them. |
Funny how they are concerned about insurance... clearly more important than the death or injury of one of their party. Insurance doesn't repair bereavement or paralysis or life-long injuries.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
...but that the Reps had a much wider spread of off piste skiing abilities than an average ISIA candidate. Some were very good competent skiers but others were a bit ropey IMO but that is OOMO (Only One Mans Opinion)  |
you could probably say the same about a British guides' course (that's a bit unfair, but maybe if you went back a few years). skiing ability and skiing safety off piste aren't necessarily correlated
personally, i don't think the reps course or the ISIA off piste module on their own qualify anyone to lead a group off piste on a reasonably challenging/remote route. they might be enough to allow people to judge places where they almost definitely won't get into trouble. they also give a good start for you to do some skiing off-piste with your mates and get some experience, which the the most important thing IMO
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Arno, agreed in full....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Arno wrote: |
| personally, i don't think the reps course or the ISIA off piste module on their own qualify anyone to lead a group off piste on a reasonably challenging/remote route. they might be enough to allow people to judge places where they almost definitely won't get into trouble. they also give a good start for you to do some skiing off-piste with your mates and get some experience, which the the most important thing IMO |
I also agree. Just completed my course and it's very much a starting point for understanding what skills you need to develop to safely lead off-piste groups.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| PJSki, how do you think the club should handle this sort of thing? |
By sacking people.
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PJSki, I think a guillotine at the AGM would increase attendance and concentrate minds on the new policy.
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You know it makes sense.
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All crowds love a stoning.
"Are there any women here?"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mosha Marc,
CROWD OF WOMEN:
[yelling]
JEWISH OFFICIAL:
Matthias, son of Deuteronomy of Gath.
MATTHIAS:
Do I say 'yes'?
STONE HELPER #1:
Yes.
MATTHIAS:
Yes.
OFFICIAL:
You have been found guilty by the elders of the town of uttering the name of our Lord, and so, as a blasphemer,...
CROWD:
Ooooh!
OFFICIAL:
...you are to be stoned to death.
CROWD:
Ahh!
MATTHIAS:
Look. I-- I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, 'That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.'
CROWD:
Oooooh!
OFFICIAL:
Blasphemy!
He's said it again!
CROWD:
Yes! Yes, he did! He did!...
OFFICIAL:
Did you hear him?!
CROWD:
Yes! Yes, we did! We did!...
WOMAN #1:
Really!
[silence]
OFFICIAL:
Are there any women here today?
CROWD:
No. No. No. No...
OFFICIAL:
Very well. By virtue of the authority vested in me--
[CULPRIT WOMAN stones MATTHIAS]
MATTHIAS:
Oww! Lay off! We haven't started yet!
OFFICIAL:
Come on! Who threw that? Who threw that stone? Come on.
CROWD:
She did! She did! He did! He! He. He. Him. Him. Him. Him. He did.
CULPRIT WOMAN:
Sorry. I thought we'd started.
OFFICIAL:
Go to the back.
CULPRIT WOMAN:
Oh, dear.
OFFICIAL:
Always one, isn't there? Now, where were we?
MATTHIAS:
Look. I don't think it ought to be blasphemy, just saying 'Jehovah'.
CROWD:
Oooh! He said it again! Oooh!...
OFFICIAL:
You're only making it worse for yourself!
MATTHIAS:
Making it worse?! How could it be worse?! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!
CROWD:
Oooooh!...
OFFICIAL:
I'm warning you. If you say 'Jehovah' once more--
[MRS. A. stones OFFICIAL]
Right. Who threw that?
[silence]
Come on. Who threw that?
CROWD:
She did! It was her! He! He. Him. Him. Him. Him. Him. Him.
OFFICIAL:
Was it you?
MRS. A.:
Yes.
OFFICIAL:
Right!
MRS. A.:
Well, you did say 'Jehovah'.
CROWD:
Ah! Ooooh!...
[CROWD stones MRS. A.]
OFFICIAL:
Stop! Stop, will you?! Stop that! Stop it! Now, look! No one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle!
Do you understand?! Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do say 'Jehovah'.
CROWD:
Ooooooh!...
[CROWD stones OFFICIAL]
WOMAN #1:
Good shot!
[clap clap clap]
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| Where exactly is this run? |
If you take the Signal drag lift and go past the offpiste warning notices you enter Le Grand Vallon. This is a large valley which offers off piste skiing.
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[snip stuff about Grand Vallon]
Combe du Signal is the front face back down towards the Col poma, accessible from the top of the Pyramids chair or the Signal poma. There is easy access back to piste and a piste can be seen at all times.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| teaboy wrote: |
[snip stuff about Grand Vallon]
Combe du Signal is the front face back down towards the Col poma, accessible from the top of the Pyramids chair or the Signal poma. There is easy access back to piste and a piste can be seen at all times. |
The Grand Vallon does not go back to the Col Poma. It ends back in Le Fornet.
Once you enter the Grand Vallon you cannot see any pistes untill the bottom of the run.
I think you are describing the Le Vallon du Petit Signal which as totally different area.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So the Combe du Signal is part of the Grand Vallon?
Now, I'm going for a shite, but I'll be back.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A few thoughts:
1) "I saw a big group of 12 people with a Ski Club Rep.": If the number is correct, this is too large a group to be taking off piste in any weather conditions (SCGB or not).
2) "they went around the avalanche danger sign": so what - it wasn't a closed sign and presumably the AE guide went around that sign as well. Most of us who ski off piste go past these signs regularly.
3) "It was a complete white out, you could hardly see at all...even for the experienced it was tough navigating ": If correct, makes me wonder why an experienced guide would take his charges down there, even if he "knew their capabilities".
4) "saw at least 3 or 4 fallen over in the powder as they where all skiing and falling together": From my experience if only 25-33% of the group had fallen, this actually sounds like a more competent than normal Ski Club group given the 50 cm of fresh snow.
5) "I said something to one of the last members of the group and he justified being there was safe because they had seen guides skiing it before": I'm not sure that someone near the back would have known exactly why the rep had decided it was safe to ski there. the AE guide should have spoken with the rep if he had concerns. Having said that, reality is that the guide himself thought it was safe to be there, so presumably his beef is not that the rep went with this group somewhere unsafe per se, rather that the rep was off piste and in this guide's opinion being off piste is automatically unsafe for someone without his years of mountain experience.
6) "just because there are tracks doesn’t mean that a slope can’t avalanche": True, but in this case his argument is undermined because he was going to ski the same slope.
Having said all of the above, if what the AE guide says is true, it would appear that the reps may have exceeded their SCGB mandate in three areas:
1. Off-piste groups are supposed to be limited to a maximum of eight (presumably unless 2 reps or a couple of guides were present)
2. If visibility was as bad as stated, the group had no business skiing an off-piste route of this nature
3. If the route taken was towards the Col Poma, this is likely within the rep's permissible range in good weather, if however they skied to the bottom at Le Fornet, this would almost certainly not qualify as a short trip off piste with the ability to return to the groomed area rapidly.
...and worst of all they apparently committed the cardinal sin of mucking up the lovely powder.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm not getting into the reps off piste discussion yet again, but after 106 years of ski club off piste activity it seems strange that AE has noticed it just as the reps are being restricted a bit.
The other AE comment about teaching, though, is very surprising since reps have it drummed into them that they must not teach. I wonder what evidence there was that the rep was teaching. Simply that they were skiing in indian file, which they often do?
Not sure where is called the Combe du Signal, but I don't think it is part of the Grand Vallon.
The Grand Vallon is a huge North (and North-West) facing bowl with many possible ways down - none very steep, but there are certainly parts with avalanche danger. Traversing right you get further descents in the Vallonnet. On the other side of the Petit Signal ridge from the Grand Vallon - to the right of the Signal lift and piste - is the West facing Vallon du Petit Signal (Below the peak of the Signal de L'Iseran) or (starting along the South facing side of the ridge) you get the Epaule du Petit Signal.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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davidof,
| Quote: |
| Whether you consider either i, or ii a good idea is another point and you may also debate whether the ski club is a club or a commercial organisation. I think it shows aspects of both. |
Interesting point. And I notice this is often said in an attempt to make the Ski Club look or seem bad - but not in this case. It's well know that the Ski Club is a not for profit organisation. The owners of the Club are its members. Now, beyond the membership fee, the Ski Club obviously tries to make money in other ways that have a commercial edge. But that doesn't make the repping part a commercial exercise, in my opinion. Nor does paying the reps SOME of their out of pocket expenses put them in the category of paid guides.
Now, the Ski Club could very easily get their top reps internationally recognised qualifications, which would lead to a whole new set of complaints from the likes of AE that the Ski Club has an unfair advantage. Maybe the Ski Club should start its own ski school and guiding business in Val. They certainly have the knowledge, contacts and resources to do it. And thanks to European law, there would be feck all anyone could do to stop them.
The off-piste is an interesting place that on one has an exclusive right to.
Anyway, I'm off for my morning shite. Had a load of beer and a curry last night, so I'll probably be making gravy for a while.
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I was there, I was the one he spoke to. Here are the facts, my opinion is that it is at least partly sour grapes from guides who want to keep the best areas for their paying punters.
1. The rep did not have 12 in the group. I think he had 7. I was skiing in a party of 5 (7+5 =12). We happened to be behind the group entering the Combe de Signal, I stopped to help one member to find a ski (as I would for any other skier) and some of us went to talk to members of the group and to the rep as we had met in the ski club meeting bar. Therefore it might have seemed that we were together but we were not.
2. My appreciation is that the group could handle the terrain competently. Yes, some fell but don’t we all?
3. There was significant fresh powder but by the time we went in I estimate 200+ had skied it. Not of course a guarantee of safety, nowhere is guaranteed safe, but a good indication. Moreover, there were several guided groups in there including I think 3 ski club holiday groups. Moreover, a guide I know well had recommended the snow there. That guides were skiing the bowl and in the area of the Rep’s group is another indication of safety and I have no doubt that the bowl then was safer than skiing down a piste in Val during Paris week.
4. The vis was not good but there are absolutely no rocky walls etc in the line the rep took and I have no doubt that he knew that: or he would not have gone there. Also, navigation is not hard in that bowl: you traverse in however far you want (the Rep went in only a short distance), you ski down and if you get it slightly wrong you end with a 150m walk out to the transverse piste. There is no possibility of getting lost
5. While I was near the group they did ski one at a time in about the same line (tho not the ludicrous line spacing Alpine seem to insist on) and about 100m pitches so all were in sight. When it seemed that they were together I expect that it because they or we (the group I was in) were helping each other.
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David Peerless, welcome to snowHeads - hope you will come and post about other stuff too.
You might possibly recognise the style of PJSki...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| But that doesn't make the repping part a commercial exercise, in my opinion. Nor does paying the reps SOME of their out of pocket expenses put them in the category of paid guides. |
I agree with you, not that it matters much. The system couldn't operate if reps had too many out of pocket expenses.
I have wondered about how this point would be considered in the event of an accident and I know the French Alpine Club have worried about it too with respect to their group leaders.
Unless someone can tell me otherwise it would seem the ski club have a pretty good safety record. Yes the Verbier accident was regretable on a number of levels and lessons will have to be learned but I don't see why they cannot continue leading off piste. Lets not forget that three mountain guides have been killed in French this winter and a client skiing with an instructor and the head of piste security was also killed. Yes guides are putting themselves on the line a lot more than ski club reps but I'm sure the French guides association will be concerned about this.
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The issue really should be about two things: is it legal, apparently; is it safe, I for one would like to know!
What are the statistics for:
a) Avalanche, b) death
With 1) All skiers, 2) professional guided groups, 3) SCGB Rep/leader led groups?
How do the total stats stack up, what are the facts?
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FAQ
