Occasionally i see people on the piste who are doing extremely short fast turns and seem to be able to ski down steep reds/blacks without picking up too much speed.
I want to be able to do them
These are the sorts of turn ive seen mogul skiers doing on a non mogul run to warm up... is there a name for them ?
At the start of this video, a US mogul skiers does a few of them....
It's a turn which blends a quick edge change with fast rotation (skidding), and a bit of an edge check at the end of some of the turns. The skis don't follow very far around the arc, which coupled with the fast feet of a pro moguls skier means the turns can be linked together at a blindingly quick rate.
Nothing unusual about blending edging and rotation, we all do it in most of the turns we make, but what's special about that skier is how well and how fast she makes those turns.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@rob@rar, Back in the day, wasn't that called Wedeln?
@Old Fartbag, to my eye those Wedels look a different to the moguls turns in Deb Armstrong’s video. Compare the amount of rotation of the hips. Very little in the moguls turns, lots on the wedels. In the mogul turns I think much more of the rotation comes from turning the femur in the hip socket, in the wedels they are mincing along by throwing their hips around.
@Old Fartbag, to my eye those Wedels look a different to the moguls turns in Deb Armstrong’s video. Compare the amount of rotation of the hips. Very little in the moguls turns, lots on the wedels. In the mogul turns I think much more of the rotation comes from turning the femur in the hip socket, in the wedels they are mincing along by throwing their hips around.
I suspect the movements are dictated by the sidecut of the ski, so IMV the turns are related, but not the same.....but it was more an excuse to post a Wedeln video.
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Old Fartbag wrote:
..but it was more an excuse to post a Wedeln video.
I think it's that video I've seen before. Makes me feel slightly nauseous.
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar wrote:
I think it's that video I've seen before. Makes me feel slightly nauseous.
Only slightly?
In the mid 70s, I aspired to that turn!
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Your average modern carve ski is actually not very useful for this.
It's considered bad style also nowadays. Knees must be more apart ('orange in between'), giving more balance/control
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Langerzug wrote:
Your average modern carve ski is actually not very useful for this.
Indeed. If you are a pro bumps skier you are going to be on bumps skis, which have very little sidecut and are pretty soft in the tip. Take a look at the skis that Olivia Giaccio was using in that video. They look like something I've got in the corner of my loft gathering dust: very different from today's piste performance skis. They are designed to allow awesome competitive bumps skiers to ski bumps rather awesomely.
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Old Fartbag wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Makes me feel slightly nauseous.
Only slightly?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
Indeed. If you are a pro bumps skier you are going to be on bumps skis, which have very little sidecut and are pretty soft in the tip. Take a look at the skis that Olivia Giaccio was using in that video. They look like something I've got in the corner of my loft gathering dust: very different from today's piste performance skis. They are designed to allow awesome competitive bumps skiers to ski bumps rather awesomely.
Amazing that she lost Deb Armstrong on her GS turns with those skis. Although it's clear that she was really going for it.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Old Fartbag wrote:
@rob@rar, Back in the day, wasn't that called Wedeln?
These days it's also affectionately know by some as a "sperm turn".
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I still think there's some similarities between the Wedeln video and a modern day Austrian turn
Your average modern carve ski is actually not very useful for this.
Indeed. If you are a pro bumps skier you are going to be on bumps skis, which have very little sidecut and are pretty soft in the tip. Take a look at the skis that Olivia Giaccio was using in that video. They look like something I've got in the corner of my loft gathering dust: very different from today's piste performance skis. They are designed to allow awesome competitive bumps skiers to ski bumps rather awesomely.
The competition bump skis in the Rossignol catalogue are listed as 23m sidecut radius, they are not just old fashioned straight ones.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It's the kind of turn that the word 'Homp' was developed for.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@rjs, what's a typical radius for an FIS GS ski these days? I've had the impression that M skis were slightly softer GS race skis?
@under a new name, The two moguls skis listed are 166cm 23m and 172cm 26m, equivalent FIS GS are 188cm 30m and 193cm 30m. I don't think there is much in common.
Skier Cross skis are GS race skis.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rjs wrote:
... The competition bump skis in the Rossignol catalogue are listed as 23m sidecut radius, they are not just old fashioned straight ones.
I don't think I've ever seen a straight ski. My first ski lesson involved the instructor showing us how the sidecut worked. "Straight" is a relative term: since the 1970s at least most skis were not actually straight.
Matt C Broze in "Freestyle Skiing" from 1978 has multiple sections on what was then called "mogul bombing". Eg page 144: "I suggest slalom side cut (narrower waisted) skis... ".
Note the word "waist".
Next to that I've 1987s Ali Ross "On skiing", which includes a diagram of a ski with a chunky sidecut, although he doesn't say how big it is. His whole schtick depended on skis not being straight.
.... so, does anyone have the specifications of a few old skis, as I'm now curious as to what radius sidecuts those actually were.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 19-11-24 17:36; edited 1 time in total
@phil_w, "straight" is a misnomer. No skis that are actually intended to turn are straight, as you correctly observe.
I estimated my "slalom" skis of 1998 (203cm Rossi 7SK mk. 4?) to be around 45m - crude measurements of widest at tps and tails and narrowest underfoot and a bit of reverse geometry - they are still in my garage so I could re-estimate. I don't think any marketing actually mentioned radius at that era and most people weren't carving*, as such. The 7S could carve a perfect carved track on blue ice however, with adequate effort, wonderful skis. *sidecut still essential to turning however.
At the same time I had some ~2012-ish Völkl 210 SGs which I think were restricted to be about the same. I found the Volkls much more readily skiable hahaha! They were probably a bit "fatter" underfoot, I think the 7Ss are 67mm.
I'm not entirely sure how much difference in radius there would be between an SL or GS of, say, 1978, but we always took GSs out in powder 'cos they were softer and skied SLs for ice.
And on sizing, at Uni, 1983-1987, no matter (to a degree) your height or weight, "203 for slalom, 207 for GS".**
**patently ridiculous at 168cms and 60kgs
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 19-11-24 17:11; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@phil_w, "Straight" skis were never straight.....but that term has become shorthand for "Old School" skis. IIRC. They had a turn radius of 60+ Meters, so looked straight compared to the very shaped skis we have today.
So even Mogul skis have a much tighter turn radius than those used in the Wedeln footage.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@phil_w, My final set of "straight" slalom skis are 201cm 85/60/75 profile for a 41m sidecut radius. Older K2 Comp 90s are 52m. Dynastar Course GS 56m.
Last edited by After all it is free on Tue 19-11-24 17:27; edited 1 time in total
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Langerzug wrote:
Your average modern carve ski is actually not very useful for this.
It's considered bad style also nowadays. Knees must be more apart ('orange in between'), giving more balance/control
if you watch to the end of the video that is what the guy is doing - short radius turns but with a gap between the skis.
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rob@rar wrote:
It's a turn which blends a quick edge change with fast rotation (skidding), and a bit of an edge check at the end of some of the turns. The skis don't follow very far around the arc, which coupled with the fast feet of a pro moguls skier means the turns can be linked together at a blindingly quick rate.
Nothing unusual about blending edging and rotation, we all do it in most of the turns we make, but what's special about that skier is how well and how fast she makes those turns.
I've seen that video before and had a go at replicating those turns. The slightly different thing about them is that it really helps to think about sliding your boots forward and back relative to each other, your calves sort of brushing past each other. It allows that hip rotation in a very narrow stance. It's a bit niche but handy to edge change quickly in a narrow space (funnily enough!). And quite good fun to do. When I used to ski very high tempo short swings on 80s/90s skis, rightly or wrongly I wiggled my hips from side to side more.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Old Fartbag wrote:
@rob@rar, Back in the day, wasn't that called Wedeln?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@CathS, I aim to please.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skint wrote:
Occasionally i see people on the piste who are doing extremely short fast turns and seem to be able to ski down steep reds/blacks without picking up too much speed.
I want to be able to do them
These are the sorts of turn ive seen mogul skiers doing on a non mogul run to warm up... is there a name for them ?
I don't think these turns have a name, mogul training turns perhaps ... though loving Kruckenhausers wedeln. Lots of videos on you tube that will teach you to do short turns which differ from those mogul turns, the feet will be more apart, as would the hands, body movements and weighting/unweighting and even the turn shapes depending which kind of short turns you want to do. Do like those mogul turns though
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thanks for all the helpful input .
I will have to continue to practice practice practice.
During this learning experience, catching an edge when the outside side rapidly becomes the inside ski for the next turn seems likely as does getting one ski sort of stuck on top of the other.
As Jedster said, I think it helps to, initially at least, be conscious of pushing the new inside ski forward at the start of a turn. Also, for me, I also focus on ensuring the inside of my knees are always in contact with each other...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skint wrote:
... be conscious of pushing the new inside ski forward at the start of a turn.
Be careful you don't overdo that. The amount of inner tip lead should be in proportion to the differential in inside to outside leg length. As was highlighted in the video you linked, neither Olivia nor Deb said that they actively pushed the inside ski forward, it was just a consequence of the broader movements they were making.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Old Fartbag, great style and looks effortless. Skiing like that will make someone stand out from the crowd.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@skint, it's not that easy to catch an edge on modern skis...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
..but it was more an excuse to post a Wedeln video.
I think it's that video I've seen before. Makes me feel slightly nauseous.
But Professor Kruckenhauser says this is the pinacle of ski technique (he invented it), and that after this ski technique has reached the end of the line and won't develop any further. Wedeln is here to stay, says the prof.
Who am I to believe?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
and skied SLs for ice.
.
