So : Custom molded footbeds.
These cost £80 to £150+ and are marketed as the ultimate in comfort.
However: I have tried various custom molded-insoles over the years.
Twice with alpine ski boots, once in touring boots, and once in hiking boots.
Though my experience of custom insoles has not been positive, they tended to amplify foot pain, and I have always gone back to off the shelf solutions.
My theory is that my foot needs to able to splay a little naturally to be truly comfortable?
A custom molded footbed (that holds my foot rigid) doesn't allow my foot to sit as it might normally.
Obvious disclaimer: Everyones feet are different shapes and this is just one experience.
FWIW: this isn't a generic rant against custom footbeds. I know that for some people they obviously work great.
Rather it is simple comment that they might not be for everyone.
Annecedotally a friend who worked in alpine ski shop for almost a decade reckons rigid custom insoles were quite often a root cause of foot pain.
His first suggestion was almost always to remove the footbed and try something flatter.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Like you got several pairs of both. Well made custom is worth it if you have difficult feet, ankle issues etc, but Superfeet also do a great job. My customs have outlived the ski boots so at £30 a season seem like a pretty good investment.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
^ Yup : I suspect my (personally) negative experience of custom footbeds is because they were molded to my arch. The forefoot was flat but foot couldn't splay naturally as it might otherwise.
Likely there is a skill to getting them perfect...
So : Custom molded footbeds.
These cost £80 to £150+ and are marketed as the ultimate in comfort.
However: I have tried various custom molded-insoles over the years.
Twice with alpine ski boots, once in touring boots, and once in hiking boots.
Though my experience of custom insoles has not been positive, they tended to amplify foot pain, and I have always gone back to off the shelf solutions.
My theory is that my foot needs to able to splay a little naturally to be truly comfortable?
A custom molded footbed (that holds my foot rigid) doesn't allow my foot to sit as it might normally.
Obvious disclaimer: Everyones feet are different shapes and this is just one experience.
FWIW: this isn't a generic rant against custom footbeds. I know that for some people they obviously work great.
Rather it is simple comment that they might not be for everyone.
Annecedotally a friend who worked in alpine ski shop for almost a decade reckons rigid custom insoles were quite often a root cause of foot pain.
His first suggestion was almost always to remove the footbed and try something flatter.
the key is how the product is made for the individual foot, each foot needs a level of support appropriate to its individual flexibility, as a rule, a flexible foot can tolerate a more rigid device and a lore rigid foot needs a softer more flexible product under it, there is absolutely no 100% one way that is right for everyone, this is why we have different options in both brand of footbeds but more importantly material choices, combined by different casting techniques to cater for as many feet as possible
so my question to you would be how were your footbeds made?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
CEM wrote:
so my question to you would be how were your footbeds made?
Had a couple of pairs of sidas heat moulded insoles. (See below).
These were from couple of different stores. One in Alps and another at home. Stood on a gel mat which is then used to mold the insoles.
In both cases these skied well but weren't comfortable. Ended up with pressure on ball of foot and toe cramps after about 1 hour.
Oddly what seems to work best (for me) is standard grey super feet. These are the low profile / low arch ones. My amateur non podiatrist theory is that my foot needs to splay a little naturally rather than be fully supported? Especially so for touring boots...
Disclaimer: everyones feet are different. This is one experience
I swapped my customs for remind insoles. https://www.absolute-snow.co.uk/brands/remind?f=t&s=instantsearch&sortby=priceasc
Much more comfortable & the cushion offers support.
As you know, custom soles are flat plastic & if you have a lot of pressure on one spot, there is zero cushion.
I also think my feet swell in the cold, so customs are no longer custom!
I have very high arches.
I am actually picking up some new custom supports from podiatry on Monday for an ongoing issue with arthritis and bone cysts.
none of that that fancy inflating balloon cushion to take an impression. NHS just had me to put my foot into a box containing foam & stand up.
Interested to see what I am being given!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Gored wrote:
As you know, custom soles are flat plastic & if you have a lot of pressure on one spot, there is zero cushion.
My custom insoles are definitely not flat plastic. They're a multi-layered composite of varying densities.
A bit like snowheads.
After all it is free
After all it is free
snowdave wrote:
They're a multi-layered composite of varying densities.
A bit like snowheads.
Love that
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@Gored, my custom footbeds (from @CEM, ) are not hard plastic either.
Mine are heat moulded cork and have been splendid. In 2014 they cost about £120 which works out at less than £14 a season, or approximately 20 new pennies per ski day.
They will seem even better value by May 2025.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I have had three pairs of Sidas ones, still happy with them.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I've had many an insole over the years for running* (which I still do a fair amount of,) and I've often used those in my ski-boots.
Even my local bike shop when custom-fitting my frame tried to get in on the act of foot-beds.
I've also been fitted with foot-beds three times c/o of ski tests and press trips and I would say that these types of foot-beds, as @snowdave, alludes to are not the same as a good pair of runners insoles which are multi-layered / multi-density.
And it is, as ever in sport, a classic case of you get what you pay for.
Many people with high arches will naturally tend to roll their foot more into the side of the boot and if you have pronounced ankle bones this can really be a problem.
So when I get new boots I have to get the boots fitted and blown out in numerous places.
Our local guy is excellent and this feature goes some way to explain the difference between a shop fitting you out and a Professional.
That said I know some shops offer a superb service
*not helped with one leg considerably shorter than the other, I actually used to have one shoe built up@snowdave,
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@snowdave, @HammondR, OK - I meant foam.
People rush to get custom footbeds, when they need more padding rather than support.
If your feet change in the cold, then custom footbeds are no longer custom fitting.
Found my feet much prefer extra padding than a thin bit of molded material.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I’m sure when I last had my custom footbeds done at profeet (probably 10 years ago now so memory may be faulty) I was sitting down when they moulding them - to avoid the foot splaying. Am I misremembering, or is that just one way they are done ?
Fwiw - I have very high arches, I’m super-inflexible (esssentially the polar opposite of hyper-mobile - physios are always horrified), but my very solid, near-zero cushioned sidas footbeds never give me a problem.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I have custom footbeds ,soley for my ski boots ...I once had to rent some boots ( my luggage got" mislaid" in Geneva airport) and the altered position in the borrowed boots was so intense I almost started snow boarding ...I have flat feet ...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Pejoli, I think there are at least 2 ways to do them. iirc Sidas standing on vacuum pads, Superfeet sitting with feet in vacuum bags.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I swapped out my heat moulded custom footbeds for an off the shelf (not cheap) alternative, the difference in comfort was night and day. Don't think I've ever go back to customs....
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
If you are seeking a technical fix to poor technique or ski fitness it won't help
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I've only tried custom insoles once, when buying new boots from a well known chain of UK snow sports retailers. Sadly all they did was cause the boots that I'd just had fitted to no longer fit. Possibly more a reflection on the quality of the boot fitting than the idea of custom insoles.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Hal Apeno, Boot (and footbed) fitting only works if the customer provide feedback at the time to the bootfitter.
Footbeds need to be carefully trimmed to fit in the boot.
Hal Apeno, The usual order is footbed first then boots fitted with said footbed
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rjs wrote:
@Hal Apeno, Boot (and footbed) fitting only works if the customer provide feedback at the time to the bootfitter.
This is exactly.
The feedback loop can only be closed if the
a) customer knows what a good fit generally feels like
b) can articulate meaningful feedback
The hard part for UK skiers is that incrementally making tweaks then testing them on a slope not always easy.
As an aside : I think "custom footbeds" can mean many very different things. Though I do suspect (from various sources) that the early 2000s ski racer trend for fully moulded rigid footbeds is no longer considered valid. Though it does seem to be an approach many shops still follow.
Tom Gellie (who knows more about biomechanics and skiing than most) seems to favor a flatter foot bed as well. With caveat that boot needs to be properly adjusted to allow foot to splay. Slightly contentious video below but I think he has reason (for some skiers)
It's also worth pointing out that your foot, ankle, leg, knee and hip is a system. If you don't normally use a supportive footbed in day to day life, and by that I mean all the time, then when you do come to use one in ski boots they can cause more harm that good. I have seen several people in which a footbed, designed to correct for over pronation actually made them ski worse as it changed their weight distribution over their feet from roughly central to a more supinated distribution along the outside edge.
In short - it is complicated. A lot of the guys/gals operating the Sidas custom machines don't do a full and proper assessment of your biomechanics and history. That is why going to see a proper, bio-mechanically aware fitter like CEM is worth its weight in gold.
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
CEM wrote:
so my question to you would be how were your footbeds made?
Had a couple of pairs of sidas heat moulded insoles. (See below).
These were from couple of different stores. One in Alps and another at home. Stood on a gel mat which is then used to mold the insoles.
In both cases these skied well but weren't comfortable. Ended up with pressure on ball of foot and toe cramps after about 1 hour.
Oddly what seems to work best (for me) is standard grey super feet. These are the low profile / low arch ones. My amateur non podiatrist theory is that my foot needs to splay a little naturally rather than be fully supported? Especially so for touring boots...
Disclaimer: everyones feet are different. This is one experience
the picture and the description is unfortunately something we see/hear all the time (is the left one more uncomfortable than the right by any chance)
as soon as (most) people stand up on the "soft squishy mats" their feet collapse in some way, it is at this point that the operator of the mats does one of two things, 1 they leave them be and they end up with a nice mold of a collapsed foot, OR they try and correct the foot position to what they THINK it should be, trouble is with your XX kg pushing down and gravity pushing up the position is never correct, be it an exaggerated arch or a false varus twist in the forefoot caused by ground reaction forces the normal result is often something like the picture.
the whole idea of an orthotic insole is to control and influence what the foot does, but not contort it, we are looking for full contact with the plantar surface when the foot is in sub talar neutral (its best functioning position) but not only this the device needs to match the flexibility of the foot, we establish this by assessment. From your description of your arch needing to splay a bit to not cause pain, it would suggest you have quite a rigid foot, i don't know this for sure from the description, but its a common scenario, if this is the case then we would use a softer material to fill the voids under the footbed, we want to allow the device to flex NOT collapse. probably about 75% of the feet out there we could use our standard middle of the road posting material or use any of the products we have in store, the other 25% either need softer to allow flex or more rigid to give more control, but if the store has one option for everyone, even with the best tech on the planet they are probably going to get it wrong (or at least not quite right) 25% of the time, some people will hate it, and some will tolerate it but it isn't doing what it should
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
NoMapNoCompass wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that your foot, ankle, leg, knee and hip is a system. If you don't normally use a supportive footbed in day to day life, and by that I mean all the time, then when you do come to use one in ski boots they can cause more harm that good. I have seen several people in which a footbed, designed to correct for over pronation actually made them ski worse as it changed their weight distribution over their feet from roughly central to a more supinated distribution along the outside edge.
In short - it is complicated. A lot of the guys/gals operating the Sidas custom machines don't do a full and proper assessment of your biomechanics and history. That is why going to see a proper, bio-mechanically aware fitter like CEM is worth its weight in gold.
Fully agree with every word of that
As aside : if you depend on high insoles for running / hiking then your arches will likely become weaker and collapse. If you run with flatter sole the foot arch becomes stronger over time.
I think ski boots not dissimilar: the idea (promoted by many ski shops) that everyone is best served by fitted and fully rigid arch support is not correct. Though it took me a long time to figure out what worked best for me.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
From CEMS reply
"it would suggest you have quite a rigid foot"
What would having this rigid foot mean or suggest is possibly going on in most cases ?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
CEM wrote:
the picture and the description is unfortunately something we see/hear all the time (is the left one more uncomfortable than the right by any chance)
Excellent post
Thanks for your professional experience.
Yes, left foot is far worse. Insole leaves pressure on ball of foot (you can see that imprint of toes and ball in photo!) leading to to toe cramps.
Fwiw: I have had tried several pairs of custom foot beds over 10-15 years. Couple for alpine boots. Once for touring boots. These were from credible stores (one in Zermatt, one in Tignes and another at home in Scotland). So if wasnt just case of a single store using the machine wrong.
Though I don't blame the ski shops. Customer needs to take some responsibility for boot fitting process themselves. Eventually I came to conclusion my foot was far comfier sitting flatter with less arch support. Grey super feet seem to be working well so little desire to go back down the rabbit hole again....
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 7-10-24 8:47; edited 2 times in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
CEM wrote:
From your description of your arch needing to splay a bit to not cause pain, it would suggest you have quite a rigid foot, i don't know this for sure from the description, but its a common scenario,
High arch but it doesn't collapse.
Arches probably strong from being a regular runner.
CEM wrote:
... if this is the case then we would use a softer material
Which is basically the exact opposite of the rigid plastic Sidas molded insoles that majority of ski shops use as their default option
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
CEM wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
CEM wrote:
so my question to you would be how were your footbeds made?
Had a couple of pairs of sidas heat moulded insoles. (See below).
These were from couple of different stores. One in Alps and another at home. Stood on a gel mat which is then used to mold the insoles.
In both cases these skied well but weren't comfortable. Ended up with pressure on ball of foot and toe cramps after about 1 hour.
Oddly what seems to work best (for me) is standard grey super feet. These are the low profile / low arch ones. My amateur non podiatrist theory is that my foot needs to splay a little naturally rather than be fully supported? Especially so for touring boots...
Disclaimer: everyones feet are different. This is one experience
the picture and the description is unfortunately something we see/hear all the time (is the left one more uncomfortable than the right by any chance)
as soon as (most) people stand up on the "soft squishy mats" their feet collapse in some way, it is at this point that the operator of the mats does one of two things, 1 they leave them be and they end up with a nice mold of a collapsed foot, OR they try and correct the foot position to what they THINK it should be, trouble is with your XX kg pushing down and gravity pushing up the position is never correct, be it an exaggerated arch or a false varus twist in the forefoot caused by ground reaction forces the normal result is often something like the picture.
the whole idea of an orthotic insole is to control and influence what the foot does, but not contort it, we are looking for full contact with the plantar surface when the foot is in sub talar neutral (its best functioning position) but not only this the device needs to match the flexibility of the foot, we establish this by assessment. From your description of your arch needing to splay a bit to not cause pain, it would suggest you have quite a rigid foot, i don't know this for sure from the description, but its a common scenario, if this is the case then we would use a softer material to fill the voids under the footbed, we want to allow the device to flex NOT collapse. probably about 75% of the feet out there we could use our standard middle of the road posting material or use any of the products we have in store, the other 25% either need softer to allow flex or more rigid to give more control, but if the store has one option for everyone, even with the best tech on the planet they are probably going to get it wrong (or at least not quite right) 25% of the time, some people will hate it, and some will tolerate it but it isn't doing what it should
I'm certainly not 8n any way qualified to make competent judgment of anyone's feet but my own, but that statement did make me laugh
The debate and information interest me as I do have the rigid type moulded beds, v-high arch and used successfully, in my experience. Both boots and beds moulded to fit and work well over significant ski time.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Haggis_Trap, interesting thread, if you put your feet into the liners with the painful footbeds around the house, do you still get the pain or is it only when clamped into a ski boot? Wondering if a softer foot bed might be worth exploring for my Mrs as she has an arthritic toe and has rigid footbeds...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
So these are my insole that cause me no issue skiing and touring
Whereas my wife is currently still battling with foot pain, despite many visits whilst away to the Bootlab and initial fit by CEM. I wonder if a softer footbed is worth trying for her?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
picked my new footbeds up today.
So much better than what I have had in my snowsports boots.
It has a cushion from heel to toe & the support is under the arch & heel. The front end is only the cushion bit which is floppy.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I've had 2 sets of custom footbeds that were moulded by 2 different methods, by 2 decent boot fitters. Both fitters (and other professionals in the past) said I have high(ish) arches. Both caused me pain/cramp, not while wearing them but later, in the evening, I'd get severe cramp in my foot.
This wasn't a surprise to me as I've always had this reaction to any sort of instep support in all types of footwear. Trainers and cycling shoes I have to be careful selecting.
Both times I was reasured that, for various reasons, these would be different. After the first I reverted to the original floppy insoles (my skiing was so bad i doubt any insole could help). With the second I swapped to their flattest of the shelf insole.
Does that mean custom insoles are a waste? No, just (so far) they haven't worked for me/my feet.
@Haggis_Trap, interesting thread, if you put your feet into the liners with the painful footbeds around the house
Those footbeds felt fine in house.
Only once skiing did a hell break loose
kitenski wrote:
Wondering if a softer foot bed might be worth exploring for my Mrs as she has an arthritic toe and has rigid footbeds...
Impossible to say online : However trying a different footbed (from a running shoe or similar?) would be easy & cheap experiment to see if it improved situation. It might be that a rigid insoles has contorted the foot....
One caveat : when unsupported a splayed foot could become a little wider. So shell might need punched elsewhere.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I used to get foot pain using off the shelf boots. Custom footbeds seemed to help but it was part of two other things 1) new properly fitted boots. 2) A couple of months of intensive ski coaching to fix elements of my technique.
I went to Solutions 4 Feet in Bicester (it was two train journeys from where I live my wife thought I was mad not going to the local one). I
The very knowledgable staff member fitted me for new boots and custom footbeds at the same time, the fact that this was done at the same time seemed to be a good idea.
No idea if the guy fitting me was the owner or not but it didn't matter because he knew his stuff and really took his time.
The boots suggested were not high end flashy ones (despite a healthy budget) but ones that fitted me really well without modification and had the right level of flex. I was prepared to be guided to mega high end boutique boots with lots of expensive modifications but this wasn't needed.
The custom footbeds took a surprising amount of time to do but I trusted the fitter.
I have been using the same boots and footbeds for years without any pain.
I can't tell if it was the footbeds that did the trick on their own though.
so my question to you would be how were your footbeds made?
Had a couple of pairs of sidas heat moulded insoles. (See below).
These were from couple of different stores. One in Alps and another at home. Stood on a gel mat which is then used to mold the insoles.
In both cases these skied well but weren't comfortable. Ended up with pressure on ball of foot and toe cramps after about 1 hour.
Oddly what seems to work best (for me) is standard grey super feet. These are the low profile / low arch ones. My amateur non podiatrist theory is that my foot needs to splay a little naturally rather than be fully supported? Especially so for touring boots...
Disclaimer: everyones feet are different. This is one experience
the picture and the description is unfortunately something we see/hear all the time (is the left one more uncomfortable than the right by any chance)
as soon as (most) people stand up on the "soft squishy mats" their feet collapse in some way, it is at this point that the operator of the mats does one of two things, 1 they leave them be and they end up with a nice mold of a collapsed foot, OR they try and correct the foot position to what they THINK it should be, trouble is with your XX kg pushing down and gravity pushing up the position is never correct, be it an exaggerated arch or a false varus twist in the forefoot caused by ground reaction forces the normal result is often something like the picture.
the whole idea of an orthotic insole is to control and influence what the foot does, but not contort it, we are looking for full contact with the plantar surface when the foot is in sub talar neutral (its best functioning position) but not only this the device needs to match the flexibility of the foot, we establish this by assessment. From your description of your arch needing to splay a bit to not cause pain, it would suggest you have quite a rigid foot, i don't know this for sure from the description, but its a common scenario, if this is the case then we would use a softer material to fill the voids under the footbed, we want to allow the device to flex NOT collapse. probably about 75% of the feet out there we could use our standard middle of the road posting material or use any of the products we have in store, the other 25% either need softer to allow flex or more rigid to give more control, but if the store has one option for everyone, even with the best tech on the planet they are probably going to get it wrong (or at least not quite right) 25% of the time, some people will hate it, and some will tolerate it but it isn't doing what it should
WTF is that??? Buy a piano and give it to a deaf, blind teenager why don’t you!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
CH2O wrote:
WTF is that??? Buy a piano and give it to a deaf, blind teenager why don’t you!
FWIW, those were made by seemingly reputable alpine store in Tignes...
Persisted with them for 2 and a half days before giving up as it was clear they weren't right (£120 down drain).
Not going to name and shame : but clearly not the only ski shop promoting the "snake-oil" of molded / rigid plastic insoles.
This thread very clear testament that while such solution works well for some people it is not suitable for all.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Haggis_Trap wrote:
CH2O wrote:
WTF is that??? Buy a piano and give it to a deaf, blind teenager why don’t you!
FWIW, those were made by seemingly reputable alpine store in Tignes...
Persisted with them for 2 and a half days before giving up as it was clear they weren't right.
Not going to name and shame : but clearly not the only ski shop promoting the "snake-oil" of molded / rigid plastic insoles.
This thread very clear testament that while such solution works well for some people it is not suitable for all.
the thing is, that insole could have been totally suitable for you IF it had been cast correctly and finished properly, as Steve alluded to, its often the monkey holding the wrench that is the problem
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
CEM wrote:
the thing is, that insole could have been totally suitable for you IF it had been cast correctly and finished properly, as Steve alluded to, its often the monkey holding the wrench that is the problem
Perhaps....
However: not an isolated experience. So clearly there is more than one store not being trained properly (in this case by Sidas). Something you acknowledge and allude to yourself above.
Fwiw : we are talking about reputable alpine store in Tignes. Not the 19 year old Saturday boy in a Snow & Rock.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Haggis_Trap, You don’t strike me as a man who is shy of complaining. Why did you not take these straight back if you knew they weren’t working?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
