 Poster: A snowHead
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So an earlier thread raised the point, buying boots from a reputed boofitter out of resort to one in resort.
It's certainly a subject that comes up alot and I, as a bootfitter having worked both out of and in resort often question.
I live in a ski resort, because of my job, no other reason, well, other than it's now the home of my son, yes i love skiing, but would always do it even if i didn't live in a resort.
So for your consideration, a couple points.
Firstly a resort topic. It occasionally is asked exactly how much or how well i ski.
In my town there are bootfitters that ski better than i do, however, is that a qualification to assume competence?
If so surely Candide Thovex is "potentially" the best bootfitter here is, I can assure you he isn't as he didn't even know about bootfitting until last winter.
Ok an not resort fitter.
Do you think a non resort fitter, that is exceptional, would be a better fitter if they had resort experience?
I have grown so much since i swapped location, however do not "actually" know if my competency would be the same if i had stayed in the UK, playing cricket in the summers. I do know however alot of that competency is due to the "living" with shells, liners on a regular basis. I know their intimate details, their lifespan, their liner benefits because i have multiple opportunities weekly to see their return to the shop.
Frequency of returning custom, repeat business, is for me they key to competence, indeed if you like it invites me to make, or at least gamble on mistakes, my clients will simply return the following day to have the issue remedied.
Whilst i can agree that a resort fitter is no guarantee of competence, surely it's a fairly high factor in that being the outcome.
I can agree that for many "vacationing" skiers, whatever level of ability, if you move around from resort to resort, year on year it makes total sense to perhaps get them fitted nearby to your home, it's simple logistics, and of course many of you site the reason as not wanting to waste your precious holiday time, which is totally understandable. There is also the potential language barrier, which as Brits should be less of an issue than any other non English speaker given that it is the second language of most skiing nations. Is till to this day find the logic of buying boots outside of resort bizarre.
Some of you also don't seem to feel the need for bootfitting, or have had bad experiences, again, i kinda get it, but a bad experience generally doesn't put us off repeating things to find out if it was simply bad luck or a unique experience. I mean, one bad meal at a restaurant shouldn't put you off trying a different one right? I too understand that it is by far and away the most expensive way to buy ski boots. And am sure many of the "non sayers" are actually denouncing the trade as their spending habits are less virtuous shall we say, few of you are gonna overtly say "well i'm cheap, so i don't want to bother." although again, some of you are honest enough to actually say so.
Food for thought and an interesting discussion, i hope i've covered most of the reasoning, i hope to read more here if i've left anything out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I was part of this original discussion on said other thread, and totally understand your view.
When S4F fitted mine, I went to Milton Keynes straight after to give them a go, I then used them for a week start of December, a week in January, and then 5 weeks in March/April. By the end of my week in December they'd bedded in properly and were causing me no issues.
I did have an issue in my 5 week trip where one of the screws for the canting came out while skiing and got lost, but Colin quickly responded to an email suggesting a recommended fitter where I was, and she actually fixed the boot FoC.
I'd use S4F again no doubt, however now I'm living in Austria, I'll most likely use our nearest recommended fitters in H&N as I'm local enough to pop back for any potential adjustments.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@swskier, do they do boot fitting in Austria? Where I live in the Alps if you talk to ski shops about boot fitting they largely look at you with wide eyes like you are talking a foreign language. It seems to be more of a Anglo thing - hence Candide not knowing about it as the OP says.
You may be better sticking to S4F.
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@davidof, yes they do fitting in austria
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I rather get the impression that CHX is somewhat an exception for high level bootfitting in the alpine world and while known "names" can be found elsewhere it can be a bit of a logistical challenge to track them down and complete all snagging in the space of a limited trip.
So if you're going to be in the same place all season have at it. If you're a visitor the answer is less clear cut. It's the quality of the fitter and whether they get you not the geographical location.
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Aww.
I'd really hoped this was going to be about new boot liner technology... mmm, comfy and organic.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, yes, I've suggested Frenchies with problem feet pay him a visit in the past as most of the French shops seem to have limited competence - they may be able to cook a footbed, that kind of thing or take a heat gun to a shell but you don't get the feeling they really know what they are doing.
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The ideal must surely be to have your boots fitted and any niggles ironed out without encroaching on precious ski time in the mountains. So, for me as a Londoner, the ideal is to have my boots fitted somewhere in southern England, followed by a few sessions in a fridge and further trips to the bootfitter if necessary, all in advance of going to the mountains. If I lived in Chamonix, I'd have my boots fitted there. It's either a no-brainer or I'm missing something. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@davidof, the shop I mentioned H&N are a race focussed shop so do proper fitting I believe.
https://www.sport-hun.at/en/
When I bought my touring boots earlier in the year, I went elsewhere in Austria, and they weren't boot fitters, they were boot sellers. A few things gave that away:
I went in and asked about a specific model, and he didn't even try and see how my feet looked to see if the model was suitable.
He measured my feet on one of those electronic scanner machines which told him I needed a 28.5, despite my feet being a 27.5, as were measured in S4F, and the reason I was buying new touring boots was because my previous pair were a 28.5 and too big (thanks to the "boot fitters" at Snow and Rock!)
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I think like all these things there are pros and cons for each.
In terms of expertise. Yes, I agree that learning from our mistakes, with pretty much immediate feedback, is a big advantage to being in resort. We all make mistakes and learning and adapting from them will definitely make you a better boot fitter.
But,
As others have said, I think it's reasonable to assume that most recreational skiers don't require, or even know about properly fitted boots, so it could be argued that an in resort boot fitter is often just putting suitable boots on feet with customers going off happy and never giving any sort of feedback or even recognising a problem where it exists. This could be a recipe for laxity and laziness.
Whereas a specialised boot fitter, in the UK for example, will mostly be seeing people who recognise the need for a properly fitted boot, sometimes often top level competitive skiers, and who might be more demanding about achieving a proper result.
So there are definitely pros and cons to each and I suspect a good boot fitter in either is going to be pretty much top of their game. I don't think there is anything about location that inherently will make one better than the other.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| I rather get the impression that CHX is somewhat an exception for high level bootfitting in the alpine world |
I’ve used 1 bootfitter in VT, 2 in Cham and 3 in Verbier. All did a good job
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Interesting to hear that many resorts only have boot sellers. But then again, in many ways, this is logical.
What % of skiers buy off the shelf? As SH's we probably have the false impression many more use a boot fitter.
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| Quote: |
What % of skiers buy off the shelf?
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i'd like the answer to that also, however suspect i'm looking for a much accurate figure than would satisfy yourself.
It would be interesting to know what profile they have. I will have an opportunity in a few weeks to get some of these type of questions answered, at least as precisely as is possible.
I would suspect many many more than you expect now are buying boots instore and have a certain expectation that some fitting will at least be observed. Seeing the technologies and tools readily available to shops and reading the catalogues of the manufacturers i would doubt any shop is left to sell boots without the "bootfitting" option given to them. The catalogues are built now around the whole concept, to suggest shops don't know about it or offer it, would be to suggest they do their buying blind.
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You know it makes sense.
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If the idea that the first step of boot fitting would be a custom footbed, as the general consensus seems to be that vendor supplied footbeds are little more than packing material, then you could make a fag-packet estimate at the number of boots sold without proper fitting by comparing the number of boots sold less the number of moulded footbeds sold.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@swskier, yes I imagine the racers have access to good fitters but the snow and rock model of business seems much more common.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@CH2O, try shops like Ekosport or Espace Montagne around Grenoble - if you are lucky they'll measure your foot for you. I know more than them about getting a good boot fit.
Ekosport won't even get different sizes out of their store room if they not on the shelf.
At the same time I've almost never met a French person who'd heard of the idea of boot fitting, perhaps a few have heard of custom foodbeds.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't know if custom boot fitting is *that* common among the local population in Austria, but fitters definitely exist. I use one at St Anton and have had two pairs done there now. It's possible their offering is skewed by the number of UK visitors to the area though – the fitter said that he spoke English 60% of the time, German 30% and Dutch 10%, so that gives an idea of their customer split.
I've seen a guy in Innsbruck recommended for touring boot modifications (this was a while ago though), but haven't used him myself. A lot of people ski tour so there will be a good market here, but equally there are plenty who will take a punt on a used pair off Willhaben.
Loads of shops sell boots, but on the whole, I don't think many have properly trained fitters. I went to Conrad's once, but clear knew more than the guy selling, so walked away (I'd also hit the wrong time of year – UK fitters restock around September for the new season, but in Austria you need to wait till November).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Quote: |
What % of skiers buy off the shelf?
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i'd like the answer to that also, however suspect i'm looking for a much accurate figure than would satisfy yourself.
It would be interesting to know what profile they have. I will have an opportunity in a few weeks to get some of these type of questions answered, at least as precisely as is possible. |
Please do report back. In fact there is an earlier question to the one I posted above. That is: what % of skiers even buy their own boots rather than rent.
Ultimately, like anything, there are all sorts of people going skiing for all sorts of reasons. I know plenty of one week a season skiers who potter around, stop for lunch, hit a bar left afternoon. I would imagine they either rent or buy off shelf. I would imagine they think fully customised boots would be be for pros and racers. To be fair it took me many years to knowing you could have it done and why it was such a good idea. First boots I purchased I had zero customisation including no footbed. Second I bought was end of season sale job. Luckily, or maybe the Ellis Brigham fitter was half decent, I got the right boot. And I was later able to just get a footbed and some customisation at S4F. But I suspect many don't know customisation is a thing or think about it or think it is for them.
| CH2O wrote: |
| I would suspect many many more than you expect now are buying boots instore and have a certain expectation that some fitting will at least be observed. Seeing the technologies and tools readily available to shops and reading the catalogues of the manufacturers i would doubt any shop is left to sell boots without the "bootfitting" option given to them. The catalogues are built now around the whole concept, to suggest shops don't know about it or offer it, would be to suggest they do their buying blind. |
If I got to the Atomic website there is some "The most important criterion is the fit" and "with a properly fitted ski boot you also ski better" but you can just buy their boots online, there is real compulsion for customisation or even direction of what, how, where this would or could be done. Maybe they feel the onus is on the customer to educate themselves.
Retailier wise it's probably a bit better - Ellis Brigham for exmaple have an extensive Ski Boot Buying Guide.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Layne, I refer to the catalogues us the retailers are given in January each year. Not info given on websites or in the public domain. I'm not suggesting a secret society, just the current catalogues we receive are all highly focused on the bootfitting process of each model, it's fairly extensive compared to say 10 years ago. For this reason i don't understand shops that don't know about it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@CH2O, Ah, yeah, makes sense.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| @Layne, I refer to the catalogues us the retailers are given in January each year. Not info given on websites or in the public domain. I'm not suggesting a secret society, just the current catalogues we receive are all highly focused on the bootfitting process of each model, it's fairly extensive compared to say 10 years ago. For this reason i don't understand shops that don't know about it. |
dissemination of that information from the buyer to the fitters on the floor in larger businesses, i doubt if a member of staff in a chain store has ever seen the brand catalogue, very few shop staff go to the trade shows, certainly not like it was in the day, when staff were encouraged to go to Slide (or Soltex as it once was) the smaller specialist type stores the buyers are the fitters so they see the information or if the fitter isn't the buyer they are only one step removed so get tom see the catalogue
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| Layne wrote: |
| ... What % of skiers buy off the shelf? As SH's we probably have the false impression many more use a boot fitter. |
I don't know. A quick google could not produce useful evidence. I guess I'd say: it doesn't matter. Get comfortable boots. If stock ones aren't comfortable, and if you've tried the obvious stuff like getting the right size/ width/ style, then getting customized boots seems like a good idea.
In this case if you've had problems with your feet, and they were fixed by some custom stuff, you're going to be evangelical about it.
Where as the rest of us just quietly buy stock boots. Social media distorts reality with data like that.
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Talk of custom boots reminds me of a skier from Texas with whom I rode a day or two last season. He was a big boy skiing in a group of three. His fancy customized boots were in your face from the start: he had the foam fit, the custom insoles, the custom grinding, boot heaters, professional world-wide branded aftermarket boot logos, the works. If he'd been a better skier I'd have assumed he was sponsored. His boots were impressive, his skiing... not so much.
He was soon asking to be evacuated because of his painful feet. We were in a rescue scenario in seriously cold temperatures. Those fancy boots, which at this point he admitted cost a few grand US, were about to get really expensive. We quickly realized that our skier's boots were a couple of sizes smaller than his feet! The guide radioed for someone to bring out some stock hire boots in the guy's actual shoe size (!), they swapped the boots, and the problem was solved. He was a bit of an ass, so he probably forced the boot fitter into doing something obviously daft. Or maybe he annoyed the fitter quite a lot, I could see how that might happen.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Layne,
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it took me many years to knowing you could have it done and why it was such a good idea.
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Me too. I discovered boot fitting (and decent skiing instruction) only after I discovered snowHeads. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@davidof, wow, 580 francs a pair. 60 English Quids.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
@CH2O, try shops like Ekosport or Espace Montagne around Grenoble - if you are lucky they'll measure your foot for you. I know more than them about getting a good boot fit.
Ekosport won't even get different sizes out of their store room if they not on the shelf.
At the same time I've almost never met a French person who'd heard of the idea of boot fitting, perhaps a few have heard of custom foodbeds. |
I think Eric the guy who owns and runs the (Intersport affiliated) Ronchail Sport in Les Contamines would be surprised by that. He has fitted and sold boots to my wife and daughter and sorted out boot niggles for several friends.
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