 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm a bit clueless to this as in years gone by I'd just throw on hoodies etc underneath jackets without giving it much thought.
I'm headed to Val Thorens at the end of December and I've bought a Helly Hansen shell jacket (elevation infinity 3.0 if it matters) so I should probably get some proper base layers to go with it, what would you recommend so I'm not going to sweat or freeze to death?!
also any brands/recommendations to look at would be great!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've tried all the HH jackets and thought they were terrible for someone who favors a goretex shell. However, the HH Morino wool mix base layer was very high quality. Other than that I have Surfanic which very thin but is better designed in that it ends where the ski boot starts unlike the HH which goes down to the ankle, which means you have to roll it up.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BTW, no offense intended. The choice of jacket is entirely subjective. I just did not like the huge HH logo.
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I've tried all the HH jackets and thought they were terrible for someone who favors a goretex shell. However, the HH Morino wool mix base layer was very high quality. Other than that I have Surfanic which very thin but is better designed in that it ends where the ski boot starts unlike the HH which goes down to the ankle, which means you have to roll it up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ronniescott wrote: |
| BTW, no offense intended. The choice of jacket is entirely subjective. I just did not like the huge HH logo. |
None taken, I went for all black so you don't see it 
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Great! Obviously you need several thin layers underneath a shell. It just depends but I imagine VT can be brutal in howling wind if you get stuck on the lift.
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Natural fibres are your friend. Anything merino wool is a good bet for insulation and for sweat prevention as wool is a naturally wicking material.
I've got Mountain Warehouse merino base layers. They've seen me through -20 in Iceland and Norway as well as in the considerably warmer climes of your average Alps ski trip (anywhere between -6 and 6 degrees).
Don't neglect your feet. All well and good keeping your limbs warm, but if you get cold toes, it's game over. Natural fibres here again. Our Northern Lights tour guide in Iceland told us that if you have a decent pair of wool socks, you don't need anymore than a single pair. I live my life by this advice. I've got some merino ones that are so thin, you'd think they wouldn't keep you warm, but they're very effective.
My husband opted for a shell jacket for our Iceland trip. He teamed it with base layers and a fleece zip up coat underneath. He said he was very comfortable. I prefer an insulated coat personally.
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@damanpunk, merino base, top and bottom is good, no particular preference but mine is old "icebreaker" thats worked well. Thin fleece type mid layer for top in addition to base.
Doesn't bulk up too much under shell, breathes reasonably, effective in insulation.
The merino base on legs helps with keeping the heat from big muscles and makes hands and feet less susceptible to cold from promoted circulation.
Currently favour military surplus thin fleece top as mid, cheap, tough and very effective with long tail and soft neck closure. Can give link if needed 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I really love my HH Morino base layer. I don't know how you would find a Morino that finished at boot level except by ordering them online to see, with the option to return.
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To add, skied VT 3rd week of December, v-cold but dry too, with bright sun. Very good conditions, but we weren't sitting around outside much.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And since you loose 90% of your heat through your head, all you need is a really good hat. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I’ve just bought a pretty decent Merino wool base layer from SportPursuit for just over £20. I so really recommend Merino for anything touching your skin except socks.
SportPursuit is a company that specialises in selling on bankrupt stock amongst other things. I tend to look at items that are high quality, new but two or three years old in Design. There are other alternatives out there, but I find them to offer a good deals if you shop selectively. I got to know some of the managers of our local Ellis Brigham pretty well over the last 20 years. All of them without exception bought a fair amount of their personal kit from SportPursuit rather than with the staff discount.
Other than the base, I will wear two or three micro fleece layers. I like the fact that these are relatively thin and that if I want to take one off, I can just roll it up and wrap it round my waist.
Apart from what most people think as normal skiing clothes, I tend to find it as long as you’re able to learn is wind proof that it’s the items that block the air getting into your jacket and trousers that are most important.
Having a really good thick neck buff and a warm but thin balaclava to go under your helmet can be really useful in the low temperatures and strong wind. If the temperature drops a lot or windchill is extreme I use a neoprene facemask mask which doesn’t incredible job of keeping my face dry even in the coldest of conditions.
Finally, I use Hästra Heli ski gloves with long cuff gaiters normally but mittens when it’s very cold. I also have a pair of almost waterproof Hästra over gloves which almost turn my normal gloves into mittens and make them so much warmer in cold or wet conditions. However, if I was buying again, I would not buy the Hästra ones as they rather stupidly coated the inside of them with something that might as well be Teflon. Once you’ve got them on, it’s almost impossible to get hold of a Poma or anything else slippery. I ended up sticking some glue on them and rubbing them in find the sand to get some sort of reasonable hand grip on the inside
I didn’t mean to hijack your OP question about layers but just wanted to point out that addressing leakage from the extremities can be just as important if not more so. They are also usually the first place to feel really cold.
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Really valid points about the neck buff and hat. I've got a buff from Intersport that's fleece on the bottom half and cotton on the top. I usually have it over ny head like a balaclava so the fleece keeps my neck warm and the cotton stretches over my ears and doubles up over my mouth and nose.
Mr. O has this one. He got it few years ago and really rates it. He uses it throughout the winter on the football pitch sidelines, too.
https://tuclothing.sainsburys.co.uk/product/tuc144451118
Nowhere near big enough to cover his ears, but he tends to run hot, so his helmet does a good enough job of that, and the buff keeps his neck and face warm.
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You know it makes sense.
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This is the military base/mid thin fleece https://goarmy.co.uk/products/british-army-brown-buffalo-type-fleece really high performance for price.
The neck can be rolled down and open, or zipped up to form a neck "buff" for more extreme. Really soft material with covered zip that doesn't touch your ski anywhere along it.
Long rear "fishtail" excellent for cycling in winter too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Natural fibres are your friend.
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No; cotton is terrible. TBH I've found just a normal T shirt fine and vary the mid layers depending on the temperature. This combined with jacket opening on descents closing on lifts and hat in pocket or on head depending on temperature works fine for me
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Poster: A snowHead
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As Sportpursuit has been mentioned already, I’m not sure if they still have any, but there were a load of Mons Royale base layers on there a couple of weeks ago. If you can get those at a good price, especially the 100% merino ones, definitely worth it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks for all the info, loads for me to go on. Time to fire up sportpursuit!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Layers themselves are critical.
Do keep a close watch on the forecast and adapt accordingly.
Merino base layer as mentioned, fleece, buff. Add extra for colder weather.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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My thoughts if it's cold:
Massive mittens with thermal inners
Merino socks, underwear, leggings, long sleeved top
Uniqlo heat-tech t-shirt as base layer
Fleece lined helmet
Snood you can pull up/down easily and use as a sun hat
If it's really cold, windy or wet use a light soft-shell as a mid layer for extra wind and waterproof, plus it's good if you sit in a sunny spot with a drink and want to take off the jacket.
Check weather forecast and wear the right thermals
Get good at opening and closing your vents in jacket and trousers
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ronniescott wrote: |
| And since you loose 90% of your heat through your head, all you need is a really good hat. |
Do most folks not use a helmet these days?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Apparently it's a myth that you lose the vast majority of heat through your head.
You'd better HOPE it's cold in the Alps at Christmas. The last few years it's been problematically warm.
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| Origen wrote: |
Apparently it's a myth that you lose the vast majority of heat through your head.
You'd better HOPE it's cold in the Alps at Christmas. The last few years it's been problematically warm. |
No "apparently" about it. It stems from an inability to interpret test results. It turn out if you cover someone with think clothes and no hat, they lose most of their heat through their head. Who'd have thought. Add to the fact the face, head and neck are more sensitive to temperature change, it gave anecdotal feedback that it must be true. Go outside without a fully clothed without a hat, and with a hat and no trousers. You will get colder in one of those scenarios.
Legs are really important in keeping warm. The thighs are massive muscles with often minimal insulation coverage (for middle aged male skiers who probably have decent thighs with minimal fat, most are our fat is filed under the "truncal obesity" column) so some decent insulation on your legs is important. Also, 3/4 length thermals skiing thermals are the ticket so they don't go into your boots and mess up that dialed in fit.
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| Quote: |
a hat and no trousers
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Puts me in mind of a description, common in my childhood, of some women as "fur coat and no knickers".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@galpinos, exactly.
I find merino extremely itchy. Horses for courses.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I find some merino itchy - but not all.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Go outside without a fully clothed without a hat, and with a hat and no trousers. You will get colder in one of those scenarios.
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When I was young I was always amazed how girls could wear skirts and not get cold whereas us boys wore thick trousers and still got cold. Of course, when I was young girls wore very short skirts. I suppose the same could now be said for postmen who's uniform appears to dictate wearing shorts in all weathers.
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| Quote: |
Puts me in mind of a description, common in my childhood, of some women as "fur coat and no knickers".
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Totally inappropriate ski clothing.
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You know it makes sense.
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I too find some Merino irritating and prefer a synthetic T-shirt (TNF Reaxxion) that I wear in the gym with a thin fleece; Haglofs micro fleeces have now been binned in favour of RAB Nexus that are lightweight and have a grid backer which disperses sweat more effectively IMO . . I like the full zip hoody versions but you can buy full (no hood) and 3/4 zip variants.
Usually pack / wear an Arcteryx Atom SL vest (also an excellent bit of kit for winter tennis) for colder mornings and also my tried and tested Patagonia Nano Air Hoody for big temperature drops / warming up on a cold terrace during a break etc
For me (being a sweaty git) breathability is key and all the above items (under a Goretex shell) work in harmony to mitigate the inevitable which means my temperature regulation when either working or static is comfy . . .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| johnE wrote: |
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Go outside without a fully clothed without a hat, and with a hat and no trousers. You will get colder in one of those scenarios.
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When I was young I was always amazed how girls could wear skirts and not get cold whereas us boys wore thick trousers and still got cold. Of course, when I was young girls wore very short skirts. I suppose the same could now be said for postmen who's uniform appears to dictate wearing shorts in all weathers. |
Oh, they were cold. But the desire to wear the skirt outweighs the downside of being cold. See also folks leaving bars and clubs in the small hours with no coats. The reasoning being that they don't want to wait for ages in the cloakroom queue to collect it.
That was never me. I'd wear the skirt, but I'd have a nice toasty coat to put on, too. I was cold, but only on the bottom half. And if you wore knee high boots, then that minimised skin exposure. These days, I'm a big fan of thermal tights if I'm wearing a skirt. It's often a warmer outfit than wearing trousers.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Origen wrote: |
| I find some merino itchy - but not all. |
Not all merino is created equal and some people will struggle with wool regardless. Weight of merino is important too, my early forays into merino were the icebreaker 260 range which were, in retrospect, far too heavy a weight for a baselayer so just ended up saturated and, being wool, slower drying than a synthetic equivalent. The best merino I have had was some Patagonia merino t-shirts gifted to me, lovely fabric but very slim fitting and they have had to be relegated to the "aspirational" drawer (see truncal obesity comment above....)
I tend to spend a lot of time in the outdoors so my ski kit, is my walking kit, is my climbing kit. Pretty cold, and my baselayer is a hooded microgrid fleece (awesome warmth for weight and the micro grid pattern aids wicking, look like a total plonker though), less cold and I'll wear a longsleeve Mountain Equipment Ground Up Tee.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Belch,
We have used Atom jackets as our main mid weight insulation for many years. They're brilliant aren't they? Comfortable in a much wider range of conditions than a "normal" mid weight fleece (e.g. what used to be Patagonia R2).
@Origen, I'm sure I could probably find some merino that didn't irritate, but that would seem like an expensive pursuit. Although I do wear merino socks.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, Atom are VERY similar to Patagonia Nano Air in terms of weight / performance . . I have 4x Nano Air hoodies and wear them everywhere and in all seasons - brilliant jackets - can be worn direct to skin and uber comfy. Atom SL is a thinner / lighter variant with less insulation . . .don't think they do the vests/gilets anymore however!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Bought a selection of Helly Hansen base layers to see how I get on from Trekinn today. Not to continue being a full kit anchor, they just seemed to have a good selection with descriptions that made sense.
lifa merino midweight base layer pants 3/4 (good tip from ronniescott above to go 3/4 which I wouldn't have thought of)
lifa merino midweight long sleeve t-shirt base layer (crew neck)
lifa merino midweight long sleeve base layer (has hood/neck gaitor that someone else mentioned)
lifa merino fleece for extra warmth if required
Hoping the anti/non-itch they advertise is right enough after some comments above. Hoping I can make plenty use of them outside skiing too.
Snowheads comes through once again, the replies to this thread made choosing a lot easier. If I've made a mistake somewhere I can always buy in resort
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Belch, are they the same tech or just very similar?
On really cold days I have a thick high loft.
But almost always a pack on which makes a huge difference.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Imho focus on base layer and waterproof.
I have found cheap microlight fleeces to usually be perfectly good as mid layers, with better ones just lasting longer and having more complex shapes.
But better base layers make a huge difference through breathability - a sweat soaked fleece over a dry base layer is surprisingly warm, while a soaked cotton t shirt is freezing even with half a dozen layers over it...
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@qwerty360, cotton'll kill ya
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Personal choice. I suppose you probably have to try stuff out and make your own mind up. I don't have "truncal obesity", so mileage may vary with that, which presumably keeps sufferers warmer as they have to carry it all around, plus it must provide some insulation.
- I find even the best merino to be itchy, so I use nylon(?) compression stuff which works fine and washes easily. Branded and unbranded works the same and outrageous patterns are available.
- If it's cold I'll use some kind of fleece of the appropriate thickness over that.
- An Arc Atom hoodie goes on top of that.
- Finally a jacket.
Brands... I like Arc and Patagonia, but off-brand stuff is functionally identical, in my experience. No one's looking at the stuff under the shell anyway.
In the past I've happily used t-shirts and whatever fleeces and stuff I have hanging around; ski resorts are really fairly tame and typically the lifts close when it's minus 38 or whatever. In Finland, Colorado and other places they have warming huts which are there to be used. Really cold snow isn't the best to ride anyway.
And less is more... if you get cold at a resort, just buy something at that point.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Belch, are they the same tech or just very similar?
On really cold days I have a thick high loft.
But almost always a pack on which makes a huge difference. |
Almost identical spec - I think Nano Airs were available before the Atom but could be wrong. Both are synthetic 60g insulation / ripstop shell / light DWR / both mega breathable and stretchy. Atom is slightly cheaper at £260 vs Nano at £280 but I've never paid full RRP for any of mine; I generally 'grab another' when they've been in the sale at between £150-180 . . .Atom is 360g / Nano now 400g (previous iterations slightly lighter) Nano / Patagonia in general more eco conscious with their recycled materials etc
As you mention its the breathability and 'range' of temps these jackets can handle. With a T-shirt from 0 degrees (as an outer layer) to 15+ in the spring and when used as a mid for skiing -10 to 5+ with comfort and a balanced temp level. I also wear one of my collection to the pub . . .another for fishing and another for general travelling etc.
More recently they've released a Nano Air Light and Nano Air Light Hybrid . . .both have less insulation at 40g (and are even lighter); The Hybrid is super lite (under 300g) has R1 style mesh panels on the sides/under the forearms and on the entire back so ideal if you're permanently wearing a pack and get sweaty in this area!
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I've switched from shell to DWR coated insulated ski jacket from Millet as I tend to run cold as I get closer to 60(!). I found that I got cold quickly in the shell while riding a long lift or eating lunch outside, and started getting annoyed at having 2-3 layers underneath never feeling quite comfortable. But that's just me; once I'm cold and the temperature starts dropping, there's almost nothing I can do to warm up except go inside.
When I wore a shell I started with a midweight merino LS top, then a fleece zip up, usually Patagonia R2, which isn't made anymore. I still have one from about 15 years ago that's holding up OK. Plus neckwarmer and long gloves that cinch over the sleeves of the shell. If it was going to be windy I'd put on a thin merino skull cap under helmet.
But wearing the insulated Millet means that above 0 degrees in sun I just need the merino top and maybe a thin fleece gilet. Below that temperature I will wear a lightweight wool sweater or very thin Rab flleece, both of which are good until about -15 C.
That said, my wealthier brother has a beautiful Arcteryx shell that he wears with equally expensive pure merino under layers and I suspect that would be very comfy and warm.
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FAQ
