I am considering swapping my winter tyres for all seasons as its clearly less hassle not having to change them over at the end of the ski season. The all seasons appear to have a 3 peaks mountain symbol as opposed to a snowflake on my winters. Is this still legal with current Savoie driving laws in winter?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Yes
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I believe that any tyres are legal provided you carry chains.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
RobinS wrote:
My understanding is that the 3PMSF ( three peaks mountain snowflake) is the official identifier for a proper approved winter tyre.
Well arguably, it identifies that the tyre meets the minimum requirement for that to be issued.
Personally I find all-season tyres to be a jack of all trades and master of none (arguably some spring/autumn conditions) and can definatly tell the difference between them and a winter in even the slightest amount of snow.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@adithorp, Your experience differs from mine. I used to swap to "full winters" every year, but decided to go "All Season" (with 3PMSF obviously) eight or nine years ago. Use Kleber Quadraxers, and can discern no reduction in performance in snow and ice compared to the full winters. This includes quite a few full seasons in the Alps, and indeed I can remember several times when in our fwd vehicle we have successfully negotiated steep exit ramps when others on full winters have needed to chain up.
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I know that the next set of tyres I fit to my MH will be 3PMSF......... this then gives me the chance in the future to take the van skiing
This is purely copied from google
"From 1 November 2024, only 3PMSF tyres will be accepted as equivalent to chains. It will still be possible to buy and use other "snow tyres", but you will also need to have chains if you wish to drive between 1 November and 31 March in the areas affected by the obligation"
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 12-07-24 16:53; edited 2 times in total
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But regardless of your tyres there are times when you won't be allowed up the mountain without chains.
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@kiteman69, if it’s not 3Pmsf it’s not a snow tyre. M&S not the same …
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
They can have both markings though. Mine do.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So first, any 'M&S' designation is effectively an irrelevance. It doesn't come under any official certification scheme and all it really tells you is that the tyre has a chunky tread - which is obvious anyway just from looking at it. It's something of a hangover from decades ago:
The 3PMSF three-peaks-and-snowflake (above) designation is official and corresponds to agreed international certification criteria. It means the tyre conforms to a basic set of requirements for a winter tyre that can operate in snow.
Some all-season tyres also carry the 3PMSF certification. In effect, they are winter-biased enough to pass the 3PMF criteria. But they may not be outright best for winter/snow and generally don't go as far into adverse conditions of cold, wet and snow as a designated winter tyre. Nevertheless, they may often work perfectly well in winter and summer, as well as being way better than summer tyres in winter conditions.
Generally, high-performance cars - and to a lesser extent SUVs - tend to amplify the differences between an all-season tyre and summer or winter equivalents. So for example, a mainstream family 1.8i hatchback on all-seasons won't drive much worse in winter than if it had winter tyres on, and won't drive much worse in summer than if it had summers on. Indeed, the differences may be undetectable to the average driver on typical public roads. But someone in, say, a BMW M2 will see a much bigger difference, to the extent that the compromise is unacceptable.
So whether all-seasons work for you or not depends a lot on individual circumstances and especially on whether the vehicle is a high-performance model / SUV or not.
I still have snow chains as well as winter tyres. And the chains aren't always for a snowmaggedon event. I've had to put chains on an AWD car with full winters on, just to get out of the apartment car parking, up to the main village road. This because there'd been repeated freeze-thaw on the drive and it was simply a sheet of ice. The weather on the day was otherwise relatively warm with clear blue skies.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Thu 25-07-24 15:34; edited 5 times in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
RobinS wrote:
@adithorp, Your experience differs from mine. I used to swap to "full winters" every year, but decided to go "All Season" (with 3PMSF obviously) eight or nine years ago. Use Kleber Quadraxers, and can discern no reduction in performance in snow and ice compared to the full winters. This includes quite a few full seasons in the Alps, and indeed I can remember several times when in our fwd vehicle we have successfully negotiated steep exit ramps when others on full winters have needed to chain up.
IME there is a huge amount of skill involved as well (which I'm not laying any claim to!).
I've had a car on summer tyres completely stuck on a steep, icy, access road in the alps. It was sliding very slowly downhill with the wheels locked.
I got out, expecting to put chains on, but my Norwegian mate got in, and proceeded to drive up and down the hill like it was tarmac, shuttling people to and from the apartment.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@snowdave, While I consider myself a decent enough driver I think in my case it was the vehicle that gave the advantage - at that time we drove a lightweight 1275cc diesel Fiat Qubo putting out all of 75bhp. 5mm of powder on top of sheet ice was plenty for it to grip enough to get up a hill!
Google Translated
From November 1, 2024, it will only cover the tires identified by the joint presence of the "alpine symbol" marking (recognized as "3PMSF" (3 Peak Mountain Snow Flake) and one of the "M+S", "M.S" or "M&S" markings.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
And no matter how snazzy a driver you are, and no matter what tyres, you will sometimes not be allowed up the hill without chains, unless you are in a 4 x 4 with lots of tread left on the tyres. There are plenty of 4WD vehicles in ditches after a snowy transfer day.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It never happens until it happens. Getting stuck is no fun for anybody. Blocking a road does not generally make you too popular either.
Winter tyres and the set of chains......just in case.
Yes, I have put the chains on numerous occasions, and it didn't hurt a bit!!!
Personally I think all seasons should be the default choice for most even in UK. Most people never drive anywhere near the capacity / handling of their vehicles.
On the odd days when there is snow and ice the benefits would far outweigh the loss they would be experiencing in the summer.
I do have a seperate set of winter wheels and tyres but that is more about protecting the summer alloys from the ravages of winter.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Origen wrote:
But regardless of your tyres there are times when you won't be allowed up the mountain without chains.
Origen wrote:
And no matter how snazzy a driver you are, and no matter what tyres, you will sometimes not be allowed up the hill without chains, unless you are in a 4 x 4 with lots of tread left on the tyres. There are plenty of 4WD vehicles in ditches after a snowy transfer day.
Yes, there's a level of skill involved, and 4WD on summer tyres is not going to help. But to clarify, in all the years I've been living and driving in the mountains, our 4WD cars with proper winter tyres have never needed chains, either IMO or that of the gendarmes that we used to see occasionally stopping all cars coming up the mountain and making many of them fit chains.
The only issue with our road cars is that both are very low to the ground (VW Passat R36 and Audi TT) so there have been times when a huge dump of fresh snow makes the Defender the logical choice for the ground clearance alone. But realistically the main roads would normally close until ploughed in such conditions.
FWIW we do not have chains that fit any of our vehicles, and have never felt the need.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Garfield wrote:
Personally I think all seasons should be the default choice for most even in UK. Most people never drive anywhere near the capacity / handling of their vehicles.
It's not about using them to their capacity, but all-season tyres on a high performance car make no sense whatsoever. It's like, if you'll forgive the skiing analogy, getting full-on FIS slalom race skis and never sharpening the edges.
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@Chaletbeauroc, we haven’t owned chains (other than for the snow blower) in 18 years…
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Quote:
our 4WD cars with proper winter tyres have never needed chains, either IMO or that of the gendarmes
I did specify that exception! But the FACT is that cars with good winter tyres can be - and are - sometimes required by the gendarmes to fit chains. Engaging them in a discussion about the superior capabilities of your tyres, your vehicle, or your self, will cut no ice at all.
When I spent 15 winters in the Alps I was only required by police to fit chains twice, because I never went anywhere on snowy transfer days unless it was unavoidable! But visitors to my apartment were required to fit chains on Geneva rental cars with good winter tyres - on the final run up from Notre Dame de Bellecombe. Mostly you don't need them. You don't need life jackets in yachts until they sink......
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Origen, I would submit that you were typically at around 1,600m? or so?
My ssertions are based around usually hanging out around 1,000m, obvs, a bit different.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
It's not about using them to their capacity, but all-season tyres on a high performance car make no sense whatsoever. It's like, if you'll forgive the skiing analogy, getting full-on FIS slalom race skis and never sharpening the edges.
You can buy high performance all season tyres, like the Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4. They don't have 3PMSF (so you'll need to carry chains to be legal where required), but they are designed to work to some extent in snow and cold conditions.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Many thanks for all the comments, all very helpful. Apart from Michelin CC2 and Kleber Quadraxer 3 are there any other all seasons that people would recommend? I tend to drive out to the Tarantaise for 3 weeks at Xmas and 3 weeks at Easter, usually to approx. 1500m. I do also carry chains but, thankfully, in the last 10 years have never had to put them on.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
richey810 wrote:
Many thanks for all the comments, all very helpful. Apart from Michelin CC2 and Kleber Quadraxer 3 are there any other all seasons that people would recommend? I tend to drive out to the Tarantaise for 3 weeks at Xmas and 3 weeks at Easter, usually to approx. 1500m. I do also carry chains but, thankfully, in the last 10 years have never had to put them on.
I've watched this when I was researching into fitting All Season tyres for next winter.
Many thanks for all the comments, all very helpful. Apart from Michelin CC2 and Kleber Quadraxer 3 are there any other all seasons that people would recommend? I tend to drive out to the Tarantaise for 3 weeks at Xmas and 3 weeks at Easter, usually to approx. 1500m. I do also carry chains but, thankfully, in the last 10 years have never had to put them on.
I've watched this when I was researching into fitting All Season tyres for next winter.
Have Hankook Kinergy 4S 2 X on the X5 and really like them. They feel a little soft when pushed into a corner (but progressively, not scary) and have handled all conditions well, especially standing water and soaked roads, although not used them in really deep snow. They've done about 8k miles and still have tons of tread left
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I've been on Michelin CrossClimate for my elderly Audi A3 (3.2 V6 Quattro). I feel like the length of the colder seasons up here in NE Scotland warrants all seasons rather than swapping between summer and winter. We have something similar on the XC90 and never had any issues - both cars seem to perform really well in the snow and ice that we get up this way, particularly on the way to and from Lecht, Glenshee etc. on the occasions when it's worth the trip.
Think I've had Pirelli Scorpion Verde all seasons in the past and equally happy with those.
No time to go trawling for the actual test, but the last one I saw, using the best performer as the 100% bench mark for traction, braking & steering on snow, gave roughly the following results
"Summer" tyres 30-40%
European all season tyres with 3psf mark and winter tyres were all over 90%
ie a massive improvement in winter grip by going from summer to winter/all season tyres but barely any difference between 3psf all seasons and winters.
My van has M+S marked tyres on the front, awful grip in the wet & snow on the roads would mean a day off they will be replaced with A/S tyres before winter!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
tangowaggon wrote:
My van has M+S marked tyres on the front, awful grip in the wet & snow on the roads would mean a day off they will be replaced with A/S tyres before winter!
My Defender had M+S marked tyres on it when I bought it and I used them through a season and a half, they were completely useless on snow or ice. Didn't help that they felt like they were probably a decade old, intended for "light truck" usage and completely rock hard, but basically confirms that the Mud and Snow marking is in no way indicative of any degree of cold weather proficiency.
Took me a while to replace them as the OEM wheels could not take tubeless tyres, so I needed to get new rims as well. then I spent ages trying to find some that were TüV approved, only to find later that even that wasn't good enough for the Swiss periodic vehicle test (like the MOT but only every 3+ years and much more stringent) so I've ended up keeping the originals as well just to refit them when the test is next due.
I’ve got mud tyres with m and s and the mountain snowflake symbol on my truck.
Still need v bar chains on all 4 wheels to get to work a lot of the time.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Cross Climate 2s are an absolute game changer.
I've got them on my Volvo V60. No noticeable difference from the summer ones on anything none snow related. I'm sure there is but it must be right at the extremes.
On snow. In Tignes last year, I was driving round quite happily with no slip. People were putting chains on to get up the hill in Val Claret and we just drove past them. Insane difference.
Expensive but worth every penny.
After all it is free
After all it is free
0pinions vary. Just one instance of why i dont like all-seasons.
About 100m from home I have a small roundabout with negative camber on it. I take a sharp (300⁰) right on it every morning. On winters I start under steering late march early April and switch to summers. On summers I start understeering late November and switch back.
One year I put Cross-Climates on... I understeered all year.
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paulhinch wrote:
Cross Climate 2s are an absolute game changer.
I've got them on my Volvo V60. No noticeable difference from the summer ones on anything none snow related. I'm sure there is but it must be right at the extremes.
On snow. In Tignes last year, I was driving round quite happily with no slip. People were putting chains on to get up the hill in Val Claret and we just drove past them. Insane difference.
Expensive but worth every penny.
+1
Put them on 2 years ago, used them for 5 trips to Alps, but very happy with them in the summer. I find the performance in very wet conditions much better as well. No difference in wear that I can see so far.
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The Michelin CC2 - Was sceptical at first, so got a set for the wifey car first, and they turned out great. Have always had seperate wintertyres for our primary car, but ended up getting CC2 when I bought a Tesla. So far they have taken me over the Arlberg pass in a snowstorm, and through the Paznau valley the day after a big snowstorm - No issues at all! If they are less capable than my dedicated winters, I really don’t notice it. The Michelins appear to be more “winter” than other all season brands on the market according to tests, but that suits me just fine.
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