Barefoot running shoes...

A snowHead

I know there are a fair few runners and also people with some decent knowledge of running etc on here.

Just back from the Keswick Mountain Festival and spent some time talking to the chaps at vivobarefoot. Now clearly they are pushing minimalistic shoes, but wondering if anyone has or still does run in them?

There was a load of hype a fair few years ago about them, the pendulum seems to have swung a bit into they can be good for building up feet, achilles and arch support, but wondering if anyone has any real life experience?

Found a decent article here https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/shoes-and-boots/best-barefoot-shoes/buying-advice

cheers,

Greg

A snowHead

For running, I have a pair of Vibram 5 Finger off-road shoes (what they now call the V-Trail I think). I like them a lot for hill running and hill walking and always feel like there's tons of grip, despite the sole being much less aggresively lugged than other fell shoes I own. I've never got on with them for use on harder surfaces though and I use regular trainers for that. I just found them hard work on my calf/achilles on tarmac, etc. and would be sore after a run. I suspect I just wasn't patient enough with starting small and building up the distance. I never really had that problem in the hills, which I guess is down to a combination of softer surface and the fact that every foot placement is different when you're hill running. I also use a zero-drop, very thin soled fell shoe from Inov-8. I feel like I get the same benefits as the 5 Finger shoes, with loads of grip and feeling very connected through my foot. I actually default to these nowadays for the hills and the 5 finger shoes get a lot less use.

For casual use, I have shoes and boots from Vivobarefoot. Again, I like them for the feeling of using my foot, achilles and calf more.

On the downside, they can be colder in winter due to the thin soles. You also get very little impact protection from sharp stones, etc., which can be quite sore on occasion, especially for the heel and arch of your foot.

Overall I'd be hard pushed to say that I've noticed a big difference from using them some of the time. However, I just like the idea of making my foot and ankle work a little more naturally for more of the time.

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@RobMcQ, cheers! What shoe do you use for tarmac running??

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@kitenski, think twice, and then think again, before doing this. Marketing hype is one thing, reality is unfortunately the other. Sure running 5km a week won't change much, but if you will be running anything more, make yourself and your body favor and don't go this way. There's plenty of researches and plenty of doctors dealing with athletes telling that barefoot running actually makes more problems then not.

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@primoz, thanks, do you have any recent links to that research? All I’ve found is from 2017 and around that time.

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@kitenski, honestly no. I have seen quite few in past when this barefoot running was at highest hype (could be from around year you mentioned). All of them were showing running in cushioned shoes was better for all the joints, from ankles, knees and hips to back. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it, but I would say that when running anything more then kilometer or two, go with proper running shoes, and use barefoot for walking if you want to do barefoot thing.

After all it is free

@kitenski, I had the biggest flare up in my knee since my ACL replacement after using these for a few months. Maybe a coincidence but I’m back using normal running shoes and my knee has been much happier since

@kitenski, I use the Asics GT-1000 for tarmac. For hard trails I have Inov-8 trail shoes.

Looking at some of the other comments, I'll throw in my conclusions based on my experience. Barefoot stuff works for me on softer, uneven ground, where your foot placement is different each step and the surface is relatively forgiving. It doesn't work for me on hard, even surfaces, where you're repeating the same motion over and over again and the ground isn't absorbing much, if any, of the force. That might be because I didn't take long enough to build up mileage / intensity slowly and let my body get used to it. Or it might be that your foot and leg joints / muscles just aren't designed to run on those hard, even surfaces and actually some cushioning is really beneficial to avoid injury.

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@Arno, aha cheers, did you start slow and build up distance on them and which ones did you try? Might be a case for me of if it's not broken don't fix it! Although I do have sore knees after the Keswick 10.7km trail run (probably due to the downhills) and do get achy hip flexors (probably down to being old and not stretching enough!)

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@kitenski, it’s a while ago but I generally used them for walking around and running on a treadmill at the gym - not particularly long distances. I suspect walking on pavement caused me the most problems because the treadmill has some give and I could run without a big heel strike

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I've run for about 15 years in Vibram 5 Finger's. Bit of a fair weather runner, but been happily running 50km a week in them on tarmac.

But they are not for everyone, obviously they only really suit people naturally light on their feet.

The only time I use more conventional trainers is the winter months when ground is near freezing. Lack of insulation numbs the soles of feet, which can then lead to bruising from running on sharp stones without noticing - until you get home and warm up!

There is no evidence that barefoot running has any benefit, in fact the opposite is true for virtually everyone.

However, that is not to say that we should all run in the most padded running shoes. Too much padding can cause as many injuries as too little. There is a sweet spot which depends on your anatomy and gait etc. However it always involves some degree of padding and support.

You know it makes sense.

@NoMapNoCompass, do you have links to the evidence please?

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@boarder2020, I'd like scientific papers, hence the request.

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@kitenski, I'd love to see the scientific papers as well, ideally based on a broad cohort of recreational runners over a decent period of time

@boarder2020, Adidas R&D E130m. Adidas Sales & Marketing and Selling & distribution costs €7.3bn. Shoes may or may not be better than ever, but good to see the E7.3bn is doing its job Happy

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@boarder2020, precisely my point, article from 2012 saying more research needed. I was hoping by 2022 they’d be more! I’m an open mind and interested to learn.

Nike throw money and 5% faster shoes at elite athletes they ain’t turning that down!

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@boarder2020, carbon is certainly interesting but when I looked into it the seemed to be race only shoes as would wear out quickly for just training/park run etc

After all it is free

There was a lawsuit against Vibram, making false claims regarding the benefits of their 5 finger shoes - as the health benefits couldnt be proven.

https://feelboosted.com/vibram-fivefingers-lawsuit-are-bad/

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There have been a few top athletes, including Olympic medallists, who trained and/or competed barefoot. (And really barefoot, not with minimalist shoes). Zola Budd, Bikila, Herb Elliott, Tulloh, ...

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They certainly couldn't win now - it is impossible to win in a half or marathon distance event currently unless wearing Nike Vaporfly (or clones) style shoes. Such is the advantage.

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there are biomechanical arguments that could on for days regarding barefoot running, suffice to say as a "training" tool on appropriate terrain it can be useful, as to switching to a "barefoot" shoe it isn't the way of the future.
maybe think of trying a lower drop shoe but with a traditional sole rather than getting rid of everything in one go

if you want to read about the benefits of NATURAL running (NOT BAREFOOT) then have a read of the boot "natural running" by Danny Abshire, he is the guy behind newton shoes, the book gives a lot of insight into changes in stride length verses cadence and all the drills required to transition from heel strike to mid foot strike properly and safely

You know it makes sense.

I dabbled in POSE running, https://posemethod.com/running/ some 25yrs or so ago, paying for a weekend course with the top dude, Nicholas Romanov, well it was the height of the Yuppy Years Laughing

Whilst not barefoot as such, it is very much based on the concept of running bare-feet.

I still recall having the image of a todler running along a beach implanted in me, as they run, they almost look as if they are going to fall forward and topple over, and it's this momentum that you are trying to achieve.

If you run barefoot on a beach you naturally change your style, though not so obvious.

Though I did change my style to run more forward, with loads of drills, I think it affected my calves, and that's an issue I've had ever since, but there again I do a lot of cycling as well and amongst triathletes issues of calf/Achilles issues are prevalent.

The logic to POSE running was to reduce impact to the joints, and light shoes were recommended, but this was before the likes of Newton and Vibram etc

Ironically a couple of days ago I was running down a 10% incline fire-trail and I was very much adapting my style to almost POSE (to reduce the impact on the knees) and even nowadays if attempting to increase my pace I can find myself running more forward.

My OH does a lot of barefoot running on beaches, though twice now she's damaged metatarsals in her feet which we think is age-related.

Where we are currently we have kms of sandy beaches, but they are damn hard to walk on let alone run, I've been up in the Parc behind us (Cape Trafalgar) and the trails are deep sand as you find in dunes and it's feckin hard work.

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@boarder2020, have you heard of another similar concept which was quite a fad in the 90's, Kerb Running?

It was where you ran out along a road with one foot in the gutter and the other on the pavement, then on the return you swapped.

It was developed by an Israeli Sports Physiotherapist Dr Youvebin Adover.

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I had some of these back 5 years ago. Had them about a month and really liked them for work etc. However I then wore them out to my work Christmas do, which was a country dance, and snapped my Achilles’ tendon.
I do wonder if the thin sole, heel drop relative to other shoes, and lack of cushion is played a part. There was a lot of stamping and jumping going on, but I have done that before with no issue.
I’d not recommend them for this use.

A snowHead

A snowHead

@Weathercam, Happy

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I have been using them, I am using the Hykes Pinnacle barefoot shoes, it took me awhile to get used to them but now I will never go back to regular shoes, my feet are so much strong and I love how I feel so much more connected with the trail. Try and see you may like it.

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I think that perhaps the main thing that has come from barefoot running hype is a return to lower drop shoes (difference in height between toe and heel). I wear vivo almost exclusively when I'm doing anything other than going out for dinner or running. Running I now use Altra who are zero drop but with large cushion (I did a marathon a couple of years ago in them). Most Hoka's are fairly low drop (4mm) too.

Traditional running shoes before the barefoot revolution were in the 14mm range for drop numbers.

The main difference is that higher drop tends to stress your knees more whereas lower drop (and barefoot) requires more dorsiflexion and therefore will KILL your calves if not used to them.

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There’s a decent episode of BBC Sliced Bread on barefoot and minimalist shoes, in which experts who actually know their stuff (the science and the evidence base) have an informed and interestingly nuanced discussion: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001ngl2

If I recall correctly the academic interviewed has conducted a meta-analysis.

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This is a vaguely-related query. Many years ago I had a pair of flip flops with thick soles and the footbed was made of rubber spikes. The idea was to stimulate the soles of the feet. At first I could only wear them for short periods, then gradually extended this till I could wear them indefinitely. They fell apart, in the end. I've not been able to find anything similar since but I feel sure they'd be helpful. Yes, I could go out and walk barefoot on increasingly "difficult" surfaces but that would take time and the shoes did the same job effortlessly. Any suggestions? NOT for running, I should stress.

After all it is free

@Origen, foam rather than rubber, but do you mean something like this?
https://amzn.eu/d/01U5CGsy

I've not seen many options with 'spikes' but if you search acupressure or massage sandals, there are quite a few options with various different designs. No idea how good any are, but I'm intrigued now!

@fixx, thanks! I don't know why I didn't have the wit to search using "reflexology" but that's what's snowheads is for, isn't it!

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@Origen, yes I had some back in the late 80's - shiatsu foot massage sandals - if you google that you'll find the equivalent etc

@afterski, totally agree with you about the calves, when I was probably at my peak in running, I went on a barefoot running course with some Eastern European guy, basically, you attempt to run like a toddler does, in that you're almost falling forwards as you run on your toes - and at first I thought it was brilliant and was wearing very light shoes, this was nigh on 45years ago, I then went an ran a 10km road race and my calf went, and since then I'be always had issues with my calves Sad

Help!!

Barefoot running shoes...

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