 Poster: A snowHead
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What's been your experience of autistic children or adults learning to ski?
Similar to healthcare providers, ski instructors don't get much teaching on autism, so with some other autistic doctors we've developed a framework for meeting autistic needs called Autistic SPACE. While it was initially aimed at healthcare, it's easily adaptable to other settings and we currently have projects adapting it for education, justice and research. So I'm thinking it could work equally well for skiing, and I'm looking at adapting it with another autistic doctor who is also a ski instructor.
So, if you have had experience of autistic people learning to ski, whether as an instructor, a parent or being autistic yourself, could you share stories please? In particular any examples of good practice that fit neatly onto the Autistic SPACE framework, but anything relevant will help. SPACE stands for sensory, predictability, acceptance, communication and empathy, which we believe are the core needs of any autistic person in any setting. We also talk about physical space, processing space and emotional space. I'm doing a talk for a group of ski instructors in a couple of weeks to test this out, but will write it up & publish it if it proves useful.
The paper is open access if anyone is interested in reading https://www.magonlinelibrary.com/doi/full/10.12968/hmed.2023.0006 and I'd be grateful for any ski related anecdotes or suggestions. Thanks in advance 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting post, thanks. I've not had a chance to read through the paper in full, but wondered if you have had any discussions with DSUK? They have considerable experience in working with Autistic skiers and it would be interesting to see the parallels between your framework and their developed practice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have never skied with anyone that I knew to be autistic. I guess if I was going to be doing race coaching with someone long term then it would be good to know everything about them but in any other situation I think it would be up to them to decide what if anything to tell me.
A big difference between skiing in a resort and the clinical situations described in the paper is the amount of control that individuals can have on the environment. I can't get a lift company to change the lighting in a lift station, just change plans if it is a problem for whoever I'm skiing with.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| HandyHand wrote: |
| Interesting post, thanks. I've not had a chance to read through the paper in full, but wondered if you have had any discussions with DSUK? They have considerable experience in working with Autistic skiers and it would be interesting to see the parallels between your framework and their developed practice. |
Oh that is a good idea, thanks. I haven't as I'm really only at the start of looking at adapting this for snow sports. Do DSUK provide training or CPD for their instructors? I had assumed they just employed adaptive certified instructors?
Also worth considering that the majority of autistic people would be learning in mainstream classes rather than specifically adaptive settings, which means that much like in healthcare, it's not just specialists who need the knowledge, instead it's beneficial for all providers.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Cool
Have you any tips to share for instructors with little to no autism awareness?
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Hi @Pending, welcome to snowheads, and thanks for sharing your interesting paper.
I do some instructing for Disability Snowsport UK (and am also father to an autistic son). I've flagged this up within DSUK. I've also dropped a line to the person responsible for the adaptive instructor pathway within BASI (British Association of Snowsports Instructors). Obviously I can't speak for whether this is something either organisation would like (or have the time) to contribute to,
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I have taught a number of Autistic teenagers without any real training or guidance both in school groups and in an adult group where I wasn't told about the Autism until it became obvious and I asked his mother who had been moved to a slower group if there was anything she needed to tell me. Many of the Autistic students had some problems with things like lifts where there was an extra external thing to conquer when they were just getting to grips with skiing. Quite a few have struggled to understand why others can't 'get it'. The kid that was in the adult group spent a (thankfully) amusing 10 minutes walking up and down behind the group muttering things like 'why are you falling over you did it last time, why can't you put your ski on you've been shown how to do it etc).
I do wonder though if you think it is fair to expect Autistics to join a normal ski group and if the Autism is mild at what point you tell the instructor/ski school.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Chris_n wrote: |
I do wonder though if you think it is fair to expect Autistics to join a normal ski group and if the Autism is mild at what point you tell the instructor/ski school. |
Given that most autistic folk (including autistic ski instructors) don't realise they are autistic, and for those who do, disclosure is a genuine risk, yeah, I absolutely do. Obviously different if co-occurring learning disabilities, but the concept of "mild autism" isn't really a thing.
Being excluded from groups purely on the basis of disclosure of a diagnosis unfortunately still happens, especially in France where awareness lags so far behind UK & elsewhere, so I don't generally disclose for new activities, nor advise other people to, unless they are up for challenging discrimination. I'll generally disclose once established in a group.
As an example, my munchkin had his booking cancelled for a group rafting session despite having previously done the same stretch of water, grade 4 rapids, solo with a different company! That happened purely because an instructor he'd done other activities with casually passed on the information to the rafting company. We eventually got the decision overturned and an apology, but so often it's a battle.
The thing is once you know what to look for its pretty easy to spot, and once you know how to make the relevant adjustments it's so much easier for everyone. Sometimes a reluctance to take autistic learners is due to ableism, but more often I think it's just a lack of knowledge and confidence.
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| Tubaski wrote: |
Hi @Pending, welcome to snowheads, and thanks for sharing your interesting paper.
I do some instructing for Disability Snowsport UK (and am also father to an autistic son). I've flagged this up within DSUK. I've also dropped a line to the person responsible for the adaptive instructor pathway within BASI (British Association of Snowsports Instructors). Obviously I can't speak for whether this is something either organisation would like (or have the time) to contribute to, |
Cool, thanks. Although let's say BASI & I have "history"  and unless they have made major shifts since I was taking their courses, their level of autism awareness was appalling. Maybe they've changed... but CSIA are so much more inclusive.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My daughter is on the spectrum and started skiing before we knew that was the case.
We had to ditch group ski lessons and pay through the nose for private lessons after a while.
She progresses slower than her peers and is moee careful and cautious to maintain control. This meant once she reached a certain level she didn't keep up with the other children. So kept being out down into lower groups and then complained to us about the others always falling over.
She generally needs more patience and can ski to a decent standard
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Pending wrote: |
| Chris_n wrote: |
I do wonder though if you think it is fair to expect Autistics to join a normal ski group and if the Autism is mild at what point you tell the instructor/ski school. |
Given that most autistic folk (including autistic ski instructors) don't realise they are autistic, and for those who do, disclosure is a genuine risk, yeah, I absolutely do. Obviously different if co-occurring learning disabilities, but the concept of "mild autism" isn't really a thing. |
Mild may be the incorrect term but I have seen everything from the guy walking up and down behind the group chuntering to full on meltdowns when confronted with a ski lift. The school teacher that was with the guy that had the meltdown told me she wasn't expecting that to happen. Next thing was the Piste Rettung (rescue) turned up with a skidoo, cue another meltdown and calling for a Pistenbully to take him with the same reaction. Fortunately I had the school teacher with me and could go to the rest of the group that were already at the top of the lift by themselves, as I got there I was just in time to stop one of them skiing off by themselves to see why we hadn't come up the lift. I took all of the rest of the kids to the meeting point to stay with another teacher while I went back to the lift as Rettung was going down, so now that is two groups not skiing, 2 Piste Rettung vehicles and about 5 staff from the lift company tied up because someone who isn't expected to have such a problem says no. The only way he would get back up the slope was to walk, fortunately it wasn't icy and was a relatively short lift (still took them over half an hour to get up though). The upshot of this is without the help of the teacher I would have been screwed, none of the lift guys spoke English, one of the Rettung guys had good English the other some but limited. I did manage to take this group to a different area the next day and did get him on a lift which was on a very shallow slope. Once he managed that he was amazing and progresssed very quickly and was actually moved to a higher group.
Does this episode put me off taking anyone with Autism? No absolutely it does not but I would be livid if someone put me in that position without warning.
I have taught many differently able people over the years and have often found them to be the most responsive and attentive. As an instance last year I had a guy who was born deaf but relatively recently had an implant fitted who had requested private tuition (due to the hearing issues) via email. I guess there was some language issue as I expected someone deaf and dumb but the ski school asked me as a native English speaker if I could do this before group lessons on a morning. This guy was very attentive, learned a lot and had a great time. Would he have got as much out of group lessons if I hadn't known? No way, he would have been lost on the first day. Would I take him in a group, of course I would, would I have treated him differently from the rest of the group? Yes of course I would but the limitation of that would be I would make sure I was looking at him so he could lip read when I was talking to the group. Would I tell the rest of the group? No I would encourage him to do so, so that the rest of the group would understand why I was looking at him and that I wasn't ignoring them.
My wife has some slight problems due to her mother taking Thalidomide in the early 60's, if an instructor didn't know about this they would be constantly wasting their and the groups time trying to correct her lack of symmetry in turns.
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Should have said once we knew we informed instructors and have given heads up about likely situations. When she was learning we encountered a button lift which had a few buttons a different colour to the rest, no amount of cajoling could get me to get her to use one, she was convinced it was going to fail in someway.
She is also dyspraxic so her gross motor skills are more of a challenge.
As we keep saying to her these things make things more challenging but doesn't mean she can't achieve. Unfortunately now she is extremely unforgiving on class mates for not taking similar approach eeeks.
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You know it makes sense.
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| NickyJ wrote: |
Should have said once we knew we informed instructors and have given heads up about likely situations. When she was learning we encountered a button lift which had a few buttons a different colour to the rest, no amount of cajoling could get me to get her to use one, she was convinced it was going to fail in someway.
She is also dyspraxic so her gross motor skills are more of a challenge.
As we keep saying to her these things make things more challenging but doesn't mean she can't achieve. Unfortunately now she is extremely unforgiving on class mates for not taking similar approach eeeks. |
This is exactly what I have seen many times with Autism, no tolerance for people who don't get it. When they do get it you can go back to a drill you did a couple of days before and they remember perfectly, much better than most people. Dyspraxia can be a challenge but not impossible.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Chris_n wrote: |
| NickyJ wrote: |
Should have said once we knew we informed instructors and have given heads up about likely situations. When she was learning we encountered a button lift which had a few buttons a different colour to the rest, no amount of cajoling could get me to get her to use one, she was convinced it was going to fail in someway.
She is also dyspraxic so her gross motor skills are more of a challenge.
As we keep saying to her these things make things more challenging but doesn't mean she can't achieve. Unfortunately now she is extremely unforgiving on class mates for not taking similar approach eeeks. |
This is exactly what I have seen many times with Autism, no tolerance for people who don't get it. When they do get it you can go back to a drill you did a couple of days before and they remember perfectly, much better than most people. Dyspraxia can be a challenge but not impossible. |
Yss my daughter has exceedingly good long term memory, but exceedingly bad short term! So somethig to said the 5mins before she has no memory off. Something taught at school 4 yrs earlier, perfect recall and complains about them recovering at school tbh should do her proud in GCSEs
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Chris_n wrote: |
| Pending wrote: |
| Chris_n wrote: |
I do wonder though if you think it is fair to expect Autistics to join a normal ski group and if the Autism is mild at what point you tell the instructor/ski school. |
Given that most autistic folk (including autistic ski instructors) don't realise they are autistic, and for those who do, disclosure is a genuine risk, yeah, I absolutely do. Obviously different if co-occurring learning disabilities, but the concept of "mild autism" isn't really a thing. |
Mild may be the incorrect term but I have seen everything from the guy walking up and down behind the group chuntering to full on meltdowns when confronted with a ski lift. The school teacher that was with the guy that had the meltdown told me she wasn't expecting that to happen. Next thing was the Piste Rettung (rescue) turned up with a skidoo, cue another meltdown and calling for a Pistenbully to take him with the same reaction. Fortunately I had the school teacher with me and could go to the rest of the group that were already at the top of the lift by themselves, as I got there I was just in time to stop one of them skiing off by themselves to see why we hadn't come up the lift. I took all of the rest of the kids to the meeting point to stay with another teacher while I went back to the lift as Rettung was going down, so now that is two groups not skiing, 2 Piste Rettung vehicles and about 5 staff from the lift company tied up because someone who isn't expected to have such a problem says no. The only way he would get back up the slope was to walk, fortunately it wasn't icy and was a relatively short lift (still took them over half an hour to get up though). The upshot of this is without the help of the teacher I would have been screwed, none of the lift guys spoke English, one of the Rettung guys had good English the other some but limited. I did manage to take this group to a different area the next day and did get him on a lift which was on a very shallow slope. Once he managed that he was amazing and progresssed very quickly and was actually moved to a higher group.
Does this episode put me off taking anyone with Autism? No absolutely it does not but I would be livid if someone put me in that position without warning.
I have taught many differently able people over the years and have often found them to be the most responsive and attentive. As an instance last year I had a guy who was born deaf but relatively recently had an implant fitted who had requested private tuition (due to the hearing issues) via email. I guess there was some language issue as I expected someone deaf and dumb but the ski school asked me as a native English speaker if I could do this before group lessons on a morning. This guy was very attentive, learned a lot and had a great time. Would he have got as much out of group lessons if I hadn't known? No way, he would have been lost on the first day. Would I take him in a group, of course I would, would I have treated him differently from the rest of the group? Yes of course I would but the limitation of that would be I would make sure I was looking at him so he could lip read when I was talking to the group. Would I tell the rest of the group? No I would encourage him to do so, so that the rest of the group would understand why I was looking at him and that I wasn't ignoring them.
My wife has some slight problems due to her mother taking Thalidomide in the early 60's, if an instructor didn't know about this they would be constantly wasting their and the groups time trying to correct her lack of symmetry in turns. |
I actually feel quite sad reading all of your posts here. It seems like you view these autistic children as a burden. I think the focus for this thread should be what could be done to ease the anxiety of these children so that a meltdown or difficult situation can be avoided. Did you prepare the group to know exactly what to expect from the ski lift? Loading/unloading, length, where it would go, what is the slope at the top etc. as you say once they had done it once they were fine to progress. Would you even notice the majority of autistic people you meet or just these ones who caused you a disturbance?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stephap wrote: |
| Chris_n wrote: |
| Pending wrote: |
| Chris_n wrote: |
I do wonder though if you think it is fair to expect Autistics to join a normal ski group and if the Autism is mild at what point you tell the instructor/ski school. |
Given that most autistic folk (including autistic ski instructors) don't realise they are autistic, and for those who do, disclosure is a genuine risk, yeah, I absolutely do. Obviously different if co-occurring learning disabilities, but the concept of "mild autism" isn't really a thing. |
Mild may be the incorrect term but I have seen everything from the guy walking up and down behind the group chuntering to full on meltdowns when confronted with a ski lift. The school teacher that was with the guy that had the meltdown told me she wasn't expecting that to happen. Next thing was the Piste Rettung (rescue) turned up with a skidoo, cue another meltdown and calling for a Pistenbully to take him with the same reaction. Fortunately I had the school teacher with me and could go to the rest of the group that were already at the top of the lift by themselves, as I got there I was just in time to stop one of them skiing off by themselves to see why we hadn't come up the lift. I took all of the rest of the kids to the meeting point to stay with another teacher while I went back to the lift as Rettung was going down, so now that is two groups not skiing, 2 Piste Rettung vehicles and about 5 staff from the lift company tied up because someone who isn't expected to have such a problem says no. The only way he would get back up the slope was to walk, fortunately it wasn't icy and was a relatively short lift (still took them over half an hour to get up though). The upshot of this is without the help of the teacher I would have been screwed, none of the lift guys spoke English, one of the Rettung guys had good English the other some but limited. I did manage to take this group to a different area the next day and did get him on a lift which was on a very shallow slope. Once he managed that he was amazing and progresssed very quickly and was actually moved to a higher group.
Does this episode put me off taking anyone with Autism? No absolutely it does not but I would be livid if someone put me in that position without warning.
I have taught many differently able people over the years and have often found them to be the most responsive and attentive. As an instance last year I had a guy who was born deaf but relatively recently had an implant fitted who had requested private tuition (due to the hearing issues) via email. I guess there was some language issue as I expected someone deaf and dumb but the ski school asked me as a native English speaker if I could do this before group lessons on a morning. This guy was very attentive, learned a lot and had a great time. Would he have got as much out of group lessons if I hadn't known? No way, he would have been lost on the first day. Would I take him in a group, of course I would, would I have treated him differently from the rest of the group? Yes of course I would but the limitation of that would be I would make sure I was looking at him so he could lip read when I was talking to the group. Would I tell the rest of the group? No I would encourage him to do so, so that the rest of the group would understand why I was looking at him and that I wasn't ignoring them.
My wife has some slight problems due to her mother taking Thalidomide in the early 60's, if an instructor didn't know about this they would be constantly wasting their and the groups time trying to correct her lack of symmetry in turns. |
I actually feel quite sad reading all of your posts here. It seems like you view these autistic children as a burden. I think the focus for this thread should be what could be done to ease the anxiety of these children so that a meltdown or difficult situation can be avoided. Did you prepare the group to know exactly what to expect from the ski lift? Loading/unloading, length, where it would go, what is the slope at the top etc. as you say once they had done it once they were fine to progress. Would you even notice the majority of autistic people you meet or just these ones who caused you a disturbance? |
You clearly haven't read everything I have said, I don't teach 'children', I do sometimes teach teenagers/young adults but usually teach adults. When there are English people in these categories with extra needs (apart from a sit ski, my son does that) I am the instructor that does it. I also do this work for other ski schools with the support my boss. I have no issues whatsoever with people who need extra help and of course do the best I can to prepare and adapt. The first part of my post refers to a group of teenagers with extra needs and we were equipped to deal with it with extra staff etc. I spent a couple of hours of my own time helping to arrange the logistics for taking this group to a different resort on the same lift pass where I knew there were better slopes and lifts where you could see the top station from the bottom. The lift that caused all of the issues you couldn't see the top due to the terrain but I had shown them the top station before we went down the slope to try and prevent the situation in the first place.
In response to your last question of course many people are Autistic without a diagnosis and of course you wouldn't know that a lot of people who do have a diagnosis are Autistic. What I do object very strongly to is parents putting teenagers into an adult group when they know there is a possibility of problems without saying anything and without leaving at least a contact number in case of problems. If the parent just tells me so I can make the small adjustments (extra explanation etc) then that is fine. It is not OK to send someone into a group lesson without a means of contact when there is a distinct possibility they are going to spoil the whole day for the other 10 people in the group or worse still put them in extra danger because of their actions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@stephap, I don't know if your comment perhaps refers to a misunderstanding of what I am saying here. What I am saying is that people who have Autism often have little tolerance for others who keep repeating the same mistakes not that I have no tolerance. Thankfully NickyJ does.
| Chris_n wrote: |
| NickyJ wrote: |
Should have said once we knew we informed instructors and have given heads up about likely situations. When she was learning we encountered a button lift which had a few buttons a different colour to the rest, no amount of cajoling could get me to get her to use one, she was convinced it was going to fail in someway.
She is also dyspraxic so her gross motor skills are more of a challenge.
As we keep saying to her these things make things more challenging but doesn't mean she can't achieve. Unfortunately now she is extremely unforgiving on class mates for not taking similar approach eeeks. |
This is exactly what I have seen many times with Autism, no tolerance for people who don't get it. When they do get it you can go back to a drill you did a couple of days before and they remember perfectly, much better than most people. Dyspraxia can be a challenge but not impossible. |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Chris_n wrote: |
@stephap, I don't know if your comment perhaps refers to a misunderstanding of what I am saying here. What I am saying is that people who have Autism often have little tolerance for others who keep repeating the same mistakes not that I have no tolerance. Thankfully NickyJ does.
| Chris_n wrote: |
| NickyJ wrote: |
Should have said once we knew we informed instructors and have given heads up about likely situations. When she was learning we encountered a button lift which had a few buttons a different colour to the rest, no amount of cajoling could get me to get her to use one, she was convinced it was going to fail in someway.
She is also dyspraxic so her gross motor skills are more of a challenge.
As we keep saying to her these things make things more challenging but doesn't mean she can't achieve. Unfortunately now she is extremely unforgiving on class mates for not taking similar approach eeeks. |
This is exactly what I have seen many times with Autism, no tolerance for people who don't get it. When they do get it you can go back to a drill you did a couple of days before and they remember perfectly, much better than most people. Dyspraxia can be a challenge but not impossible. |
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I get it completely, my daughter is worst with others who are on similar spectrum but exhibit differently. When it comes to ASD there are three ways they can go when overwhelmed, fight, flight or freeze. My daughter is freeze. For most things in school fight is worst and the one my daughter has no tolerance for. She sees things very black and white and can't understand that they can't control there reaction. I am working with her on this as with everything it takes time. It has made it easier for her teachers to work with her which is a huge blessing for us and meant she has progressed well when we returned to mainstream with much better understanding in year 3. We are now year 9 started GCSE syllabus and she is doing very well (inc top set for maths).
However on ski slope this had meant she had been left behind and pushed down a group. Now we just pay private instructors and she had a wonderful lesson today including onto black runs now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| Chris_n wrote: |
@stephap, I don't know if your comment perhaps refers to a misunderstanding of what I am saying here. What I am saying is that people who have Autism often have little tolerance for others who keep repeating the same mistakes not that I have no tolerance. Thankfully NickyJ does.
| Chris_n wrote: |
| NickyJ wrote: |
Should have said once we knew we informed instructors and have given heads up about likely situations. When she was learning we encountered a button lift which had a few buttons a different colour to the rest, no amount of cajoling could get me to get her to use one, she was convinced it was going to fail in someway.
She is also dyspraxic so her gross motor skills are more of a challenge.
As we keep saying to her these things make things more challenging but doesn't mean she can't achieve. Unfortunately now she is extremely unforgiving on class mates for not taking similar approach eeeks. |
This is exactly what I have seen many times with Autism, no tolerance for people who don't get it. When they do get it you can go back to a drill you did a couple of days before and they remember perfectly, much better than most people. Dyspraxia can be a challenge but not impossible. |
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I get it completely, my daughter is worst with others who are on similar spectrum but exhibit differently. When it comes to ASD there are three ways they can go when overwhelmed, fight, flight or freeze. My daughter is freeze. For most things in school fight is worst and the one my daughter has no tolerance for. She sees things very black and white and can't understand that they can't control there reaction. I am working with her on this as with everything it takes time. It has made it easier for her teachers to work with her which is a huge blessing for us and meant she has progressed well when we returned to mainstream with much better understanding in year 3. We are now year 9 started GCSE syllabus and she is doing very well (inc top set for maths).
However on ski slope this had meant she had been left behind and pushed down a group. Now we just pay private instructors and she had a wonderful lesson today including onto black runs now. |
This is so often what is required when anyone has any difficulties be they diagnosed or otherwise. There is no point in forcing people into 'mainstream' education of whatever sort when they have needs that fall outside of the category of mainstream, this doesn't just apply to Autism. It can equally mean the often older learner who has an apparently irrational fear of moving on skis or someone with vertigo who can't handle the idea of getting into a gondola or onto a chairlift.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Autism is covered on the BASI Adaptive pathway. Not all instructors follow this pathway, in fact most probably don't. For those aiming for level 3/4 it would come under the 2nd Discipline requirement and, at an educated guess, the majority would cross-qualify in ski / snowboard. The head of Adaptive at BASI (Charlie) is lovely and I'm sure would be happy to discuss.
In my experience, autism had quite a lot of emphasis on the adaptive course as it's one of the more common things that might come up in the real world. Other different abilities (e.g. diabetes) may require something of a mental checklist of things to watch out for and some extra provision (e.g. carrying a sugary snack) but don't necessarily require the instructor to change their teaching style or lesson structure. As a result, we spent quite a bit of time on autism when doing mock lessons, etc.
I've guided many mountain bikers who were obviously autistic and have taught a few snowboarders who I would also have guessed were somewhere on the spectrum as well, but I've never, ever had anyone declare it!
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Private lessons might seem an obvious solution to those of you who aren't autistic, but the intensity of the social interaction one on one is often intolerable, unless the instructor is clued in enough to offer no unnecessary words.
I asked the munchkin what were his top 2 tips for instructors for my talk tomorrow and they were 1. don't assume I'm not listening if I'm not looking at you and 2. no chit chat on the chair lift.
Often the ideal scenario is to be accepted as part of a group without being expected to engage socially. So what if progress is slower than peers or if various levels need to be repeated?
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| Pending wrote: |
Private lessons might seem an obvious solution to those of you who aren't autistic, but the intensity of the social interaction one on one is often intolerable, unless the instructor is clued in enough to offer no unnecessary words.
I asked the munchkin what were his top 2 tips for instructors for my talk tomorrow and they were 1. don't assume I'm not listening if I'm not looking at you and 2. no chit chat on the chair lift.
Often the ideal scenario is to be accepted as part of a group without being expected to engage socially. So what if progress is slower than peers or if various levels need to be repeated? |
The so what is once basics are mastered they get put done into a group much below there ability levels with children who barely able to stay on their feet and get very bord and frustrated
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I shared my ASD daughters lesson with her today. She started to do exercise and stopped staring at the slope as she had seen a spider. Patience is needed to be prepared to just wait for whatever distraction has been seen processed and then she is ready to move onto exercise
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| I've guided many mountain bikers who were obviously autistic and have taught a few snowboarders who I would also have guessed were somewhere on the spectrum as well, but I've never, ever had anyone declare it! |
Any non team sport which requires a high level of interest and commitment to get good at it attracts a disproportionate number of autistic folk. Climbing is another example, as is diving. And for sure, most don't even know and those who do often don't disclose.
| stevomcd wrote: |
| we spent quite a bit of time on autism when doing mock lessons, etc. |
I'm wondering was this from the traditional deficit/disorder focus, which often conflates autism & learning disabilities, or is it a more modern neurodiversity-affirmative approach?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| The so what is once basics are mastered they get put done into a group much below there ability levels with children who barely able to stay on their feet and get very bord and frustrated |
That definitely shouldn't be the outcome, but it often is when there's little to no awareness. Another reason it happens is because autistic skiers can be very inconsistent, so if the assessment is made on a bad day then it will result in a lower group allocation. I've had this happen to the munchkin a couple of times and it is really frustrating to watch. Once I got a private instructor to take him out and not try to teach him, but just determine what level he was at and that resulted in him being moved up into the appropriate group. Usually it was a group he'd just follow along at the back. It also helped that it was usually the same place and the local instructors got to recognise him coming back year after year.
Of course some autistic skiers will enjoy private lessons, so I'm not suggesting that they aren't a good solution, but they shouldn't be the default suggestion just because instructors can't make reasonable accommodations.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Pending wrote: |
| NickyJ wrote: |
| The so what is once basics are mastered they get put done into a group much below there ability levels with children who barely able to stay on their feet and get very bord and frustrated |
That definitely shouldn't be the outcome, but it often is when there's little to no awareness. Another reason it happens is because autistic skiers can be very inconsistent, so if the assessment is made on a bad day then it will result in a lower group allocation. I've had this happen to the munchkin a couple of times and it is really frustrating to watch. Once I got a private instructor to take him out and not try to teach him, but just determine what level he was at and that resulted in him being moved up into the appropriate group. Usually it was a group he'd just follow along at the back. It also helped that it was usually the same place and the local instructors got to recognise him coming back year after year.
Of course some autistic skiers will enjoy private lessons, so I'm not suggesting that they aren't a good solution, but they shouldn't be the default suggestion just because instructors can't make reasonable accommodations. |
We had this several years on the trot, and more than just assessment stage, also spend day wiith group put down following day, spend day with that group, put down again following day because she wasn't progressing at same rate as group and didn't feel she could be taken onto run they planned for group for the following day 
First time we tried a private instructors I was lucky enough to be going on SFaB and another snowhead had similar child and we shared the cost. This worked brilliantly. Now she is as a level she can ski with us as family (actually probably more confident than me) and do 2 half days of private instruction with recommended instructors from here. To help her keep progressing.
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@Pending, My post above was maybe too vague. I have skied with you, at a Families Bash, and wondered what you would have wanted to be different that week (apart from not breaking yourself obvs).
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You know it makes sense.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @Pending, My post above was maybe too vague. I have skied with you, at a Families Bash, and wondered what you would have wanted to be different that week (apart from not breaking yourself obvs). |
Ah, I'd missed that - and how cool that we skied together. Agreed, ending that week in one piece would have been far preferable! It took me about 18 months to recover. Was just back on skis and the pandemic hit, followed by a bout of long covid. So this is my first season back since.
I was lucky that week in that I found a few other autistic & neurodivergent skiers to ski & chat with, because it's always easier when we share a common "language" but other than that I didn't really need anything else to be different as I could ski already, I wasn't taking lessons as such. I enjoy socialising, although I do need solitary recovery time, but I can regulate that myself. It was mostly in the early years of learning to ski, then later during my initial instructor training that I really ran into difficulty that could possibly have been averted if there was a greater understanding.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Pending wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| @Pending, My post above was maybe too vague. I have skied with you, at a Families Bash, and wondered what you would have wanted to be different that week (apart from not breaking yourself obvs). |
Ah, I'd missed that - and how cool that we skied together. Agreed, ending that week in one piece would have been far preferable! It took me about 18 months to recover. Was just back on skis and the pandemic hit, followed by a bout of long covid. So this is my first season back since.
I was lucky that week in that I found a few other autistic & neurodivergent skiers to ski & chat with, because it's always easier when we share a common "language" but other than that I didn't really need anything else to be different as I could ski already, I wasn't taking lessons as such. I enjoy socialising, although I do need solitary recovery time, but I can regulate that myself. It was mostly in the early years of learning to ski, then later during my initial instructor training that I really ran into difficulty that could possibly have been averted if there was a greater understanding. |
Presume that was same SFaB I was referring to? If I recall you arranged yo saty another week with your lad? My Mum was also on it and broke her ankle coming out the shop on arrival day
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Poster: A snowHead
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| Pending wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| @Pending, My post above was maybe too vague. I have skied with you, at a Families Bash, and wondered what you would have wanted to be different that week (apart from not breaking yourself obvs). |
Ah, I'd missed that - and how cool that we skied together. Agreed, ending that week in one piece would have been far preferable! It took me about 18 months to recover. Was just back on skis and the pandemic hit, followed by a bout of long covid. So this is my first season back since.
I was lucky that week in that I found a few other autistic & neurodivergent skiers to ski & chat with, because it's always easier when we share a common "language" but other than that I didn't really need anything else to be different as I could ski already, I wasn't taking lessons as such. I enjoy socialising, although I do need solitary recovery time, but I can regulate that myself. It was mostly in the early years of learning to ski, then later during my initial instructor training that I really ran into difficulty that could possibly have been averted if there was a greater understanding. |
Presume that was same SFaB I was referring to? If I recall you arranged yo saty another week with your lad? My Mum was also on it and broke her ankle coming out the shop on arrival day |
Gosh, yes! I remember that. She had just arrived, right? Hope she recovered ok?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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She did and we got her skiing another couple few times. April 2022 she decided was last time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Pending, that is very sad.
Heard similar out of schools in UK they don't want to get a reputation for providing good support to SEN students as they would be inundated and wouldn't be able to cope.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Having dealt with number of bad teachers/instructors who were meant to be SEN-friendly I'm actually happy to see someone doesn't force himself to do something he doesn't feel he can do properly. It's now less likely he will be teaching my kids.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm autistic myself and when I first learnt we actually disclosed the autism twice, the first time was when we booked the lesson and then we reiterated it on the day to be safe and found out that a cross-trained adaptive/regular instructor had been assigned to our lesson to accommodate the autism, the instructor was amazing and very patient, however I definitely would not have reached the recreational standards with a regular non-adaptive instructor, I think all instructors need more training on autism in general, but I also feel that disclosure should be done earlier than on the day if it is done to allow adequate preparation for example a quieter place to get boots on where possible, in regards to autism specifics there is no way that every instructor could be adequately trained in autism, but I think a specific but basic autism awareness course should be mandatory so that instructors know some key dos, dont's and traits, however severely autistic skiers should probably be referred to the adaptive skiing clubs for more tailored lessons, as they will normally take on autistic skiers, but a autism quick reference pocketbook would also potentially be very helpful to instructors
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Is anyone in this thread (or anyone else neurodivergent) planning on going to the PSB this year and do any neurodivergent skiiers here have Snowhead instructors they can recommend from their experience? 
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FAQ
