 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm giving up.
As I mentioned on another thread - eternal intermediate British dad skier (you know the type).
I'm having fun, I'm getting down all the runs I want to. But it's just not happening (aside from perhaps a few moments on a smooth black piste where the steepness gave my edges some more bite).
Have told teenage son - carving is for turkeys - and "skidded" is not the right term for my turns. I say it's high performance "drifting" like in motorsport 
Anyway, not looking for carving tips - just some solidarity from other folks who've decided to settle for other turn styles!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You just need some lessons.
Modern skis help you turn with minimal effort, but you really need to learn how to execute different types of turns for different conditions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@GreenDay,
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You just need some lessons
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This. I too had fun before taking lessons, but am having more fun now that I can access more tools in the box.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| frejul wrote: |
I'm giving up.
As I mentioned on another thread - eternal intermediate British dad skier (you know the type).
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Yes, we do know the type. The type that will soon be complaining that their children don't want to ski with them any more because they're too slow; the type that will start to look for resorts with only easy reds and blues in a year or two; the type who will find that as they get a little bit older their bodies will start to let them down and be unable to keep up with the abuse.
You need to get a perspective on this - carving is not just some arbitrary style that you can choose to do or not to do without any consequences. It's a part of modern skiing because it makes efficient use of the technology available and allows a competent skier to ski faster, longer, later and with much less effort.
Why would you refuse to do something that makes it easier? It's a bit like saying you don't need power steering in a car - would you switch that off too if you had the choice? And yes, that analogy does work, given that you're skiing on shaped skis designed to carve which do actually make it more difficult to do pre-1990s type point-and-skid turns than the old straight ones.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Chaletbeauroc, Can't agree with much of that. I've skied with a bunch of mates every year for nearly 18 years. Of the bunch (5/6 people), I'm the only one whom can carve to a decent level. I bit the bullet and dived into lessons 20yrs ago and have had occasional 'top-ups' since. My 'slider' pals are no way slower than me or less able to negotiate tricky terrain and if anything come off of a tough day on the mountain less knackered than myself and I'm the fittest of the bunch. My skiing looks more technical and I've got them on bumps to a degree. We're all in our mid to late 50s now and we have the absolute best times away skiing. None of my pals are bothered about investing heaps of time and money in skiing a little prettier and a little more technically now.
Brit skiers are shockers for taking the sport way too seriously, particularly on this forum. It's fun, keep it fun. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| frejul wrote: |
I'm giving up.
As I mentioned on another thread - eternal intermediate British dad skier (you know the type).
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Yes, we do know the type. The type that will soon be complaining that their children don't want to ski with them any more because they're too slow; the type that will start to look for resorts with only easy reds and blues in a year or two; the type who will find that as they get a little bit older their bodies will start to let them down and be unable to keep up with the abuse. |
Well I think that might be a few years away. Still seeking out the toughest blacks and mostly skiing all day with a quick lunch. Mostly at a decent speed.
@Mollerski's mates sound like my type!
My mates are generally snowboarders so I don't need to be that fast.
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@Mollerski, good argument, but I'm surprised about the less tired bit. I get much less tired now that I've learned to ski more efficiently (for want of a better word). I do agree, though, that seeking prettiness is not particularity useful and sacrificing fun is even less so.
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| frejul wrote: |
I'm giving up.
Anyway, not looking for carving tips - just some solidarity from other folks who've decided to settle for other turn styles! |
You don't need to ask for solidarity because you already have it by default - 90% of recreational skiers can't carve.
You could argue that it's a conscious decision by most people to "have fun" on their hoilidays rather than technical training but I don't think it's a conscious decision not to carve per se, more a case of they don't miss what they've never had. Or they tried it on a couple of lessons once, couldn't do it and gave up. Most people give up lessons too early and carving is usually quite low down the list of things which need improving on in what lessons they do have. You're far more likely to learn it on a specialist training course like Snoworks and few people will put that effort in.
Which is a pity, because if you can carve it really does take your enjoyment levels to a whole other stratosphere. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@frejul, what definition are you using for carving?
On edge, perfectly railed S's?
Or - as I discover a lot of people mean - using the radius to sharpen a turn ('skarve')?
I wouldn't say railing proper carving turns is important if you're just out to have fun. But being able to use the radius is pretty key in controlling modern skis.
Are you renting your skis? If so, they might be letting you down (or making it tough to learn) in one way or another.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Nothing wrong with skidded turns. Nothing wrong with snowplough either. All useful tools to have in the box.
Did cringe the other week seeing so many doing carve speed power slides, trying to keep up with faster skiers. Their knees must have been screaming, and thighs on fire.
Like that n00b trying to keep up with his (better/faster) mates that took out our instructor one year on a black run. Basically out of control, using literally all his might to change direction, resisting the slope.
Why resist the slope and gravity when you can use the edges that the designers gave us to let us do relatively effortless graceful swoopy turns ?
And when the going gets tough, being able to use the edges gives a lot more confidence than sliding sideways over ice and trying to get control back.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Thomasski wrote: |
@frejul, what definition are you using for carving?
On edge, perfectly railed S's?
Or - as I discover a lot of people mean - using the radius to sharpen a turn ('skarve')?
I wouldn't say railing proper carving turns is important if you're just out to have fun. But being able to use the radius is pretty key in controlling modern skis.
Are you renting your skis? If so, they might be letting you down (or making it tough to learn) in one way or another. |
Yes - I'm probably using the radius a bit and "skarving" as you say.
No - haven't rented for a while. Am making it tough for myself by using not entirely piste focused skis and perhaps not having them sharpened often enough. Having said that - tried my son's very piste foused rentals (radius 12.9m) and still wasn't railing anything.
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It's a hell of a lot easier to learn to carve on a sub 70mm ski. Once you get much above 75mm, you're really putting yourself at a disadvantage. I wouldn't try to learn on a slalom ski either, much easier to do GS style turns on a 16-18m radius ski.
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You know it makes sense.
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@frejul,
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Am making it tough for myself by using not entirely piste focused skis and perhaps not having them sharpened often enough.
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If you are used to making these turn, you won't be using the ski to turn -- you will be turning the ski. This is a perfectly valid technique..
But...
Getting on some narrower, sharper, turnier skis together with a lesson or two, will let you have the ski turn you. This is much less effortful and reduces the load on your body. This means less wear and tear, so you can ski until much later in life...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@frejul, are you trying to carve linked turns on a black piste?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| frejul wrote: |
| Thomasski wrote: |
@frejul, what definition are you using for carving?
On edge, perfectly railed S's?
Or - as I discover a lot of people mean - using the radius to sharpen a turn ('skarve')?
I wouldn't say railing proper carving turns is important if you're just out to have fun. But being able to use the radius is pretty key in controlling modern skis.
Are you renting your skis? If so, they might be letting you down (or making it tough to learn) in one way or another. |
Yes - I'm probably using the radius a bit and "skarving" as you say.
No - haven't rented for a while. Am making it tough for myself by using not entirely piste focused skis and perhaps not having them sharpened often enough. Having said that - tried my son's very piste foused rentals (radius 12.9m) and still wasn't railing anything. |
My 2p worth:
Depends what your skis are, if they're springy shaped skis then you should be good - park, powder, or large radius skis will be a lot tougher to learn on.
As for your son's rentals: Any basic rentals will be tough to carve on because they're too forgiving, blunt and floppy, they'll give out into a skid in my experience (I've given it a go and they don't like to be pushed!)... Asking the shop for a stiffer ski wth more bite will help (although going too stiff (FIS or similar) will make them hard work and unforgiving if you're trying to learn).
The above is just from my observations of friends picking up carving - I'm not an instructor, I learned to carve 30yrs ago on a dry slope with straight skis (not sure I could do that now!) so I'm no expert either!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've had some lessons aimed at "carving" - enough to know I struggle to do it for more than a very little while and certainly can't link carved turns and wouldn't even bother to try on a black slope. In my view, many people who think they're carving, generally aren't. The only way to be sure is on a newly pisted slope where you can look back and see your tracks into and through the turn. Generally a sobering, smeary, experience.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Some people enjoy lessons (I do) and some don't. It's the same in other endeavours. Some sailors want to study the art of sail trimming and enjoy mucking about with the controls, others just want the thing to push the boat along somehow while they enjoy the view and have a cup of tea.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| frejul wrote: |
| Anyway, not looking for carving tips - just some solidarity from other folks who've decided to settle for other turn styles! |
Good for you! Never let Perfect become the enemy of Good - Find and concentrate on the joy in what you are doing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @frejul, are you trying to carve linked turns on a black piste? |
No - not trying to do that at all! But I think on a couple of occasions I accidentally railed a single turn on a black (or part of a turn) - I suspect because the gradient gave me a better edge angle.
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| frejul wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @frejul, are you trying to carve linked turns on a black piste? |
No - not trying to do that at all! But I think on a couple of occasions I accidentally railed a single turn on a black (or part of a turn) - I suspect because the gradient gave me a better edge angle. |
OK, apologies for misreading your post.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| frejul wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @frejul, are you trying to carve linked turns on a black piste? |
No - not trying to do that at all! But I think on a couple of occasions I accidentally railed a single turn on a black (or part of a turn) - I suspect because the gradient gave me a better edge angle. |
OK, apologies for misreading your post. |
No problem! I think it was a case of why lean into the turn - when I can let the mountain lean into me? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If you can't carve consistently on a blue or green run, I struggle to believe that you're accidentally carving any turn on steep terrain. Carving down steep slopes is what racers aspire to do, it's not something that happens by accident. You can carve on a gentle green or a blue run just by rolling your ankles and knees. If you carve down something steep, you'll pick up speed which will necessitate a much more deliberate attempt to bend the ski, dig the edges in and carve the turn. If you don't want to carve, that's fine, it's your hobby and your holiday so you can do what you want, but accidentally carving down steep black slopes but being unable to carve on easy terrain is a very strange claim to make.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| VTSkier wrote: |
| but accidentally carving down steep black slopes but being unable to carve on easy terrain is a very strange claim to make. |
I don't think he's claiming that. I think he's just temporarily locked an edge on a steep slope and had a eureka moment of "Oh, that's what carving feels like!" Most intermediates have never been properly on an edge, the first time is often a shock.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| VTSkier wrote: |
| If you can't carve consistently on a blue or green run, I struggle to believe that you're accidentally carving any turn on steep terrain. Carving down steep slopes is what racers aspire to do, it's not something that happens by accident. You can carve on a gentle green or a blue run just by rolling your ankles and knees. If you carve down something steep, you'll pick up speed which will necessitate a much more deliberate attempt to bend the ski, dig the edges in and carve the turn. If you don't want to carve, that's fine, it's your hobby and your holiday so you can do what you want, but accidentally carving down steep black slopes but being unable to carve on easy terrain is a very strange claim to make. |
I said perhaps one turn (or part of a turn) on just a couple of occasions - where I failed to skid and instead felt like I was on rails. Out of thousands of rubbish skidded turns I've made on blacks in recent years.
Not saying I can or will ever reproduce it!
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 21-02-24 12:31; edited 1 time in total
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| VTSkier wrote: |
| but accidentally carving down steep black slopes but being unable to carve on easy terrain is a very strange claim to make. |
I don't think he's claiming that. I think he's just temporarily locked an edge on a steep slope and had a eureka moment of "Oh, that's what carving feels like!" Most intermediates have never been properly on an edge, the first time is often a shock. |
Yes - that's exactly what I mean!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OP - contrary to your opening gambit, you know and wish you could carve better; that's contrary to giving up unless it's really p*****g you off. Take a private lesson or two to help make a step up.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Je suis un Skieur, I think I know where you are coming from with your reply and yeah I agree, part of the reason for me trying it is to broaden/cross fertilise my skills and yeah I believe I may have used it as an "escape technique" on occasion.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Mollerski, good argument, but I'm surprised about the less tired bit. I get much less tired now that I've learned to ski more efficiently (for want of a better word). I do agree, though, that seeking prettiness is not particularity useful and sacrificing fun is even less so. |
Agreed. A reasonable care is stable, and easier on the body. I am definitely in the "body giving up" stage, but skiing well has made things easier on that decrepit frame
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is an eternal debate. I take the approach that carving is one more tool in the box, and it is not the be all and end all.
But to suggest that you are good skier but can't carve on a modern ski is just ridiculous. Good skiers could carve on old school skis for heavens sake. And to further suggest that it is more efficient to not carve is equally ridiculous. For sure someone good at carving can ski further, faster, with more control, and use much less effort and energy than someone who can't carve.
It's perfectly fine to remain on the lower intermediate plateu and enjoy your winter holidays. And it is also true that mastering all the other tools in the box is just as important (or maybe even more so) than perfecting your carve. Nothing wrong with sticking to that. Just don't pretend that it is "better" or worse "more efficient", it isn't.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Excuse the slightly rambling post on "sort of can carve - often don't carve", but I'm wondering if I should replace my skis because of this conundrum.
Having had a 4 year hiatus in my skiing before this year and an 18 year one ending 7 years before that, I'm trying to work out what combination of factors contribute to me carving or more often not. I learned to ski in the 80s and I can still ski with my knees glued together on easy slopes (it's a great way to annoy my daughter) so I'm almost entirely self-taught here, the exception being a bit of help from an instructor who was giving my wife a private lesson. Unsurprisingly, he told me my stance was far too narrow.
Technique: I start a turn a bit messy and if I get it right I'll be on the edges before I get too far into the turn. I'm almost always better turning left than right.
Confidence (see Technique): if my subconcious decides it's too icy/too heavy/too steep, my stance goes out of the window (more specifically out of the back of the skis) and nothing works properly until I rectify that.
Skis: My usual skis are 170cm K2 iKonic 85 Ti (2016). I bought those with a view to a bit of gentle off piste that never happened and now never will, so I might buy an out and out piste ski to replace them. This year, I hired skis and got 168cm Völkl Deacon XT (the 2023 version), which were a tad shorter but have a lot less rocker. Coincidentally, they have almost identical sidecut radii (15.5m for the K2, 15.7m for the Völkl). Once I got over the shape (the Völkl is 9mm narrower at the waist and tail but only 2mm at the tip) I was hoping that they'd be easier to carve on. However, while they seemed fine on gentle slopes, I was not carving on anything steep that I recall being able to do 4 years ago on the K2s: the Völkls seemed too pliable.
Of course, I'm trying to compare skiing this month with skiing four years ago and there's a good chance these differences are all in my head. I don't think it's primarily age causing the difference: my quads are stronger than 4 years ago (cycling). I'm 59, "reasonably" fit and stubbornly 80kg. 70kg would be nice but seems unrealistic; 75kg I have an outside chance at.
Any advice welcome. Yes, I know: lessons, even at my age. In practice, though, I'll be with people who don't want lessons, so I probably won't get a chance, so in the absence of that... stick to the K2s (which are nice in heavy snow)? Or go for something that will help me ski reds/easy blacks more smoothly?
PS. I agree it's "only one tool in the box", it's just the one that needs the most improvement in my case.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@tsgsh, As someone implied above, changing your skis to be less sensitive to your poor technique is not the best way to approach this. Almost certainly wouldn't work anyway. You almost certainly don't need a week of ski school, but a two hour private lesson on the second morning, say (so you've remembered it all on day 1) may do wonders for your technique and your confidence. And maybe another one later in the week to see how far you've progressed and help you tidy it up a bit.
In essence, and I'll say this with some confidence despite not having seen you ski, you'll need to work on your stance, not so much the knees-together thing but getting them pulled forward in the boot such that your weight is nicely distributed (it will often be too far back at present) and you're making a sort of Z shape with shoulders, hips, knees and ankles. Like a spring, able to compress or extend in a vertical direction as required. It's almost impossible to get this nice relaxed and stable stance with your knees glued together, so that will disappear on its own.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
@tsgsh, As someone implied above, changing your skis to be less sensitive to your poor technique is not the best way to approach this. Almost certainly wouldn't work anyway. You almost certainly don't need a week of ski school, but a two hour private lesson on the second morning, say (so you've remembered it all on day 1) may do wonders for your technique and your confidence. And maybe another one later in the week to see how far you've progressed and help you tidy it up a bit.
In essence, and I'll say this with some confidence despite not having seen you ski, you'll need to work on your stance, not so much the knees-together thing but getting them pulled forward in the boot such that your weight is nicely distributed (it will often be too far back at present) and you're making a sort of Z shape with shoulders, hips, knees and ankles. Like a spring, able to compress or extend in a vertical direction as required. It's almost impossible to get this nice relaxed and stable stance with your knees glued together, so that will disappear on its own. |
Thanks for the advice re skis not being the answer. However, with some confidence, also, I'll say that provided my subconcious doesn't betray me, my stance is reasonably good as you describe, whilst not being perfect of course. The problem is that, even when I know it's wrong (because a little voice is saying "you don't want to ski on that") I can't easily get it back the way it's supposed to be. I'm very concious when I'm skiing badly of how I'm skiing badly, be that all my weight on the tails/pressure on the back of the boots, trying to lead with the outside shoulder, stiff knees and shoulders in front of my knees, leaning towards the hill with too much weight uphill, etc. An instructor will of course see more than I'm aware of, but I'm aware of a lot some of the time.
I don't dispute for a second that the ideal solution would be a lesson on day 2 as you describe: I'll do it if I get a chance but I may not.
PS. The knees together thing is not a bad habit that gets in the way of proper skiing: that one is for a laugh on gentle slopes.
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@frejul, as you request at the top of the post, just enjoy your skiding, smirshing & sliding.
I'm with you on this ... we should all develop our own styles at our own pace.
As long as your not a danger to yourself or others its great.
Enjoy!
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| DrLawn wrote: |
@frejul, as you request at the top of the post, just enjoy your skiding, smirshing & sliding.
I'm with you on this ... we should all develop our own styles at our own pace.
As long as your not a danger to yourself or others its great.
Enjoy! |
Only significant risks are embarassment to son with my lack of style, and damage to my bank balance.
Although even if I'm slightly slower than him - I make up for this by not being a faffer or dawdler. You know the folk who are endlessly adjusting something - or changing something - or having to pop back to the apartment to change goggles / gloves / sandwiches etc? I'm off the lift and away while he's still fumbling to put away his phone.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@frejul,
What you're NOT a phaffer?
You'll need to get some lessons then.
I'm proud to be a level 9 of Phaffer, I get coaching at Hemmel Fridge every 2nd Wednesday.
Anyone can join and you don't have to bring your own gloves, goggles or hand warmers.
But I would recommend getting your own lip balm.
When you get on your holiday, you can show off the skills you have honed.
Your crew will marvel at how long you can spend checking all your pockets, unwrinkling your socks, the boot clipping. There is an art to it, you'll master it.
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@tsgsh, no offence but from everything you've written I doubt you could ever carve. It's not unusual to find amateur skiers who think that carving just means skiing smooth rounded turns at speed - it doesn't. It means leaving two perfectly clean tracks hip width apart with a one ski length break between them on the transition when you flip edges.
Only elite skiers can carve blacks and only then on slalom skis in good conditions. I have literally only ever seen one guy carve a black in nearly 30 years of skiing and I just stopped in awe. To carve on a red outside of a race course requires big balls, strength, stamina and an empty slope.
And you're self-taught and been doing all this on an 85mm ski? I call BS.
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FAQ
