 Poster: A snowHead
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Last week most of the week we were skiing off piste, grippy snow or slush but there was one morning, earlyish were were skiing down into Val T and the pistes were boilerplate. I personally struggled to hold an edge but the pistes were fairly quiet and wide so it was easy enough to get down without worrying about skittling someone. I remember being up on the Bellecotte glacier once when the kids were little and this was happening. Anyhow, later in the day during discussion my missus questioned my ability to DIY our skis and get the edges sharp enough.
Now to me unless you are a race tech and have race skis you are not going to get skis that perform brilliantly on frozen pisted slopes like that. But am I wrong?
Note 1: I don't touch the base edges other than running a diamond file along to remove burrs and do the edges on an 87 setting. We have good standard all mountain skis.
Note 2: Yes, I did suggest she could service the bloody things herself 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you can produce a nail scraping with not much pressure, they're sharp enough I reckon.
Like you I set the bases to 1deg once and pretty much leave them alone. 88deg on the sides seems to work (was K2 factory standard). For me, honestly the main work is done with a pass of the coarse file. My kit has 240, 500, 1000 diamond stones and I give them a bit of a go over with one or another of them, but not sure it makes a huge difference for my v average resort skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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2 things stand out there...
| Layne wrote: |
| ...boilerplate... ...all mountain skis... |
There's only do much you can expect.
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Hi
I have home serviced our skis for a number of years.
I like you never mess with the base edges. I use a guide to maintain the side edge to 88 degrees which is the Salomon factory setting. I do a couple of passes with the file to sharpen the edges (I go quite light here as material removed can not be added back on!). I then use gradual grades of diamond files (dipped in water so not used dry) in the same guide to gradually polish the edges up. Finish off with a hard gummi held flat to the ski base to remove the hanging burr.
Once all done a good hot wax is applied.
Shavings off the thumb nail indicate the edges are about right sharpness wise. For my pottering around on piste the above method has served me fairly well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As @adithorp said probably more the ski than the servicing.
In Mayrhofen last week the first morning that started with hard pistes I also struggled to get good edge grip on my DIY serviced backcountry skis (but they were great in the afternoon with things slushed up)...but had great grip the following hard piste morning when I used my DIY services SL skis instead (but hated them in the afternoon when things slushed up). Nothing wrong with the serviving of either ski, just a softer, lighter AM ski is never going to cut in to ice like a stiff, heavy SL ski - but will handle the slush a lot better!
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I'm lazy - Sunday or Monday night, skis go into ski rental place and for €20 they sharpen edges and wax.
Good to my next ski holiday then 
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@Layne, Ah….’I canna hold her Captain…it’s the edges….’
Nope
The Grom gets grip on ice on 106 noodle Factions with dull edges.
He gets more grip after I have serviced them.
But he still gets grip before that.
So…
It MAY be that you are crap - I can be - but all fine so as long as you are: wrapping the binding in plastic, working down through the file grades, removing case hardened edge with oxide stone, then finishing with diamond and fluid (50/50 distilled water and surgical spirit), then removing hanging burr with gummi. And checking sharpness by drawing fingers at 90 deg across edge. That’s all good. We sharpen every time we need to…maybe a refresh if we have been hacking early morning ice…but usually every couple of weeks. Base edge? Leave alone.
But…
I could not get my edges in on ice. Just couldn’t do it.
Reason: crap technique.
Look at the Grom doing short turns on boilerplate when all others are going sideways.
Antidote:
Look at on-line vids on hip dumping (deb armstrong)
Get Grom to unpack my problems
Practice
Head up
No hip dump
Shoulders angled to the slope
Downhill boot behind or in line with hip
50-50 or variable balance uphill and downhill ski depending on context.
Now…GRIP…whether my edges are refreshed or not.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 10-04-24 12:04; edited 1 time in total
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@Mjit, that's really interesting and definitely part of my thinking (AM v SL).
Another thing to bear in mind I guess is that the boilerplate was iirc the 5th day on the skis - one would imagine that as each day passes the edges will dull slightly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Layne, buy her a day’s private tuition and a nice lunch with the (carefully-chosen) instructor.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 10-04-24 12:32; edited 1 time in total
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| valais2 wrote: |
The Grom gets grip on ice on 106 noodle Factions with dull edges.
He gets more grip after I have serviced them.
But he still gets grip before that.
But…
I could not get my edges in on ice. Just couldn’t do it.
Reason: crap technique.
Look at the Grom doing short turns on boilerplate when all others are going sideways.
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Dingly ding ding. It's not the ski, it's the skier, that's the most important part of the equation.
Angulation, leading to edge angle, is the key. And plenty of flexion of the knee to ensure more extension is available if and when needed.
Oh, and speed. You'll never get any grip if you're not going fast enough.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Chaletbeauroc, exact
@Layne,
Imagine my ice axe climbing a face.
Plinky plink tap the ice. It won’t go in. Swish slide.
Smash wallop. In it goes. Kerchunk. Safe hold.
You have to get that initial edge engagement on ice. Right angle, lots of energy/force. The moment you go into the transition you know that edge has to be rammed in….
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Oh, and speed. You'll never get any grip if you're not going fast enough. |
She doesn't like speed. Been discussed many times and she won't budge. She is an excellent skier - skied since she was a small child, stylish and I've never seen her struggle down anything. But she doesn't like to charge or ski fast. She always keeps her turns short.
All of which I agree/accept will not help on boilerplate.
I probably ought to speak to my 18yo son - who does charge/speed.
Ultimately, I am unlikely to change what I am doing and I suspect the wife will live with it, as she already as done for several years. We don't encounter boilerplate all that often. But I was curious to get others thoughts.
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A subsidiary question I guess would be (aside from racers) do people actually enjoy skiing boilerplate. I can't say as I do.
Personally I don't fight it too hard, I just try to work on technique but not fight the speed to hard. And get down fairly quickly and safely. It's a small percentage of skiing I don't particularly enjoy.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Layne, in which case apologies….was teaching to suck eggs etc….
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| valais2 wrote: |
@Layne, Ah….’I canna hold her Captain…it’s the edges….’
Nope
The Grom gets grip on ice on 106 noodle Factions with dull edges. |
Yea, but from reading your posts over the years The Grom is a, to put it mildly 'better than average' skier, and with the right skills you can ski almost anywhere on almost anything. Most of us don't have the skills so have to rely on the kit 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Layne wrote: |
| A subsidiary question I guess would be (aside from racers) do people actually enjoy skiing boilerplate. I can't say as I do. |
On my SL skis? Yep, love it. Get those knees to the hill and the edges biting and you can really let the skis do their thing and do some lovelly carving turns that you can't later in the day when everything's cut up and a bit moglie (at least this "winter"!).
On my softer, wider skis? Not really, and after a couple of chattering runs I'm ready to ask the "Coffee...?" question.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Mjit, True.
And looking forward to boilerplate…my knees now let me know with a hideous deep ache while sitting on the chair to do some laps…..fine whilst I am skiing, but oh so painful for a few minutes after I sit down….
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| valais2 wrote: |
| @Layne, in which case apologies….was teaching to suck eggs etc…. |
Eh, no worries, I wasn't meaning to cut you down/off. It was interesting what you wrote.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I have never skied on SL skis and I'm unlikely to as my main interest is lift served off piste and/or "travelling" around enjoying my favourite piste runs - and trying to find the right conditions that make me feel good. I enjoy the scenery/ambience, getting some mountain air in my lungs, having fun with friends/families. I like to ski well but I don't have the time/inclination to slalom. No criticism of those who do. I don't board, blade, telemark, either. Bit of a boring old far really
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just to throw in my experience, it's very possible to be crap at servicing skis. I used to do my own with diamond files and a guide, leaving the base edge alone, going off some Snowheads guides and some YouTube vids. They're a pair of Atomic Vantage 100cti. They'll grip well for a big ski and I can edge them on very firm refrozen corduroy, though they might chatter a bit (skill issue too of course). I didn't realise how much grip I was missing though until I dropped them into the shop for a service, not long after I'd done them myself. The difference was pretty dramatic and the whole thing was much less effortful. I'm not sure exactly what the shop did, but it was night and day.
So yes, I am crap at servicing skis and I suspect I am not the only one
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
You'll never get any grip if you're not going fast enough.
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Same is true when driving on snow up to the resort 
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@element, that's very interesting. I am surprised there is such a marked difference. Do you now always take them to a shop.
For me even at €20 a pop (surprised it's still that price tbh) that would be €80 for the family. I've always read some tails of woe in regard of some shops - and that the shop methods will ultimately shorten the life of the ski as they use machines.
Maybe I should take the wifes in surreptitiously and see if she notices the difference. Perhaps even when I anticipate conditions being icy.
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@Layne, ah noticing the difference….
My partner:
Me: ‘did you notice that I have serviced your skis?’
Partner: ‘no’
Then
Me: ‘did you notice that I had waxed your skis?’
Partner: ‘no’
Then
Me: ‘did switching from 160 twintips to 145 piste skis feel any different?’
Partner: ‘no’
Then
Me: ‘do those yellow lens improve low light vis after CAT3?’
Partner: ‘no’
I do feel that ‘no’ would be the response to ‘did you notice that I sawed your left leg off?’
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@valais2, lol
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| element wrote: |
So yes, I am crap at servicing skis and I suspect I am not the only one |
I suspect most people who are crap at servicing skis haven't used a sidewall planer or otherwise removed part of the sidewall by maybe setting the file guide to 5⁰ and using a coarse file or suchlike.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Chris_n, !!! YES !!! That’s the bit I left out !!! Apologies… yes…that’s why we have a green holmenkol sidewall planer with a rounded blade in, an orange one with a square blade, and a Skiman black one with a fully round blade in it. As you suggest, trying to file an edge with the plastic in the way is a road to nowhere.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 10-04-24 21:52; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Chris_n, guilty as charged.
I just drop them into the shop now. They're a bit older and I only ski a couple of weeks a year, so I'm not too worried about their longevity.
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I have started to use a sidewall remover in recent years so the swimbo can't take that as an excuse.
Although as ever maybe I'm just not skilled enough in using it.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Layne, which one have you got and which blade does it have in it? Some skis are a nightmare to plane - sidewall skis are a joy whilst some cap construction are horrible - ‘dimply surface’ Atomic and Volkl cap skis are nasty.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Layne, I suspect the real problem is the skis not the servicing. All mountain skis are more flexible than slalom or piste skis and a consequence less torsional stiffness. They are also wider so get a greater twisting moment. Effectively this means that the angle of the ski in contact with the snow is less over most of the ski length and less grip is available. Try some pukka 155 dry slope slalom skis on firm pistes. Their performance is amazing. I have a pair in my cave for just those days.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@valais2, iirc it's the Kunzmann Advanced/Racing Sidewall Stripper with round and flat blade.
Must admit I felt a bit nervous to use at first and it doesn't somehow always feel precise! But I know when filing if I am getting sidewall and that after stripping I don't so I guess that means it's doing the job.
Overall, I quite enjoying servicing skis and feel reasonably capable of doing so. I don't like servicing my bike and take it to a shop.
I do actually hope that one day the wife and maybe the kids step into "the workshop" and learn - if nothing else because then yes they can not moan about the edges. Although to be fair complaints aren't that frequent.
One thing that has concerned me actually is that we've had two pairs of skis that have an edge come away from the ski. Both were a few years old and this maybe something that just happens. The first time the ski manufacturer had gone out of business (White Doctor) so couldn't go back to them, second pair Dynastar (was going to ask them about it but life intervened). But anyhow, I did have a nagging doubt that somehow my DIYing may have contributed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Layne wrote: |
| ...and that the shop methods will ultimately shorten the life of the ski as they use machines. |
Getting a machine services doesn't have to shorten the lift of the ski. The tech. could go to all the effort of fidding with the machine to only edge and wax/not grind the base...but if you're only paying €20 it's just going to get chucked through the machine with the standard edge/wax/base grind, whether it needed one or not). Your edges will be sharp, the base slidy and look like it's fresh from the factory. The base will also be 0.1mm (or whatever it is) thinner than it used to be and eventually you run out of 0.1mm to remove. That's what shortens the life of (cheaply) machine serviced skis.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Mjit, absolutely.
It really is worth knowing how to quickly spruce up base and edges and not submit the skis to the torture of a neglectful run through a machine.
ironically…too much attention to meticulous skis I think….
And frankly we occasionally grab a pairs of skis from the pile which is in genuinely appalling condition re base and edges and they are still completely viable and worthwhile to ski on. I still have the Salomon Streetracers which Grom2 was using - 145s…base delaminating at one tail, bases gouged to f===, edges totally blunt. Perfectly fine in an imperfect kind of way. A quick wax and good to go. Sort of. Good for Easter rock hopping.
Layne….you’d have be doing things completely mad with the sidewall to cause edge loss. Too much slide slipping on sharks is the problem usually. Very easily done. Even ‘dry skiing’ (don’t ask) can be done ‘lightly’ and not leave too much damage. Dynastar went through a bad period re quality control and that might have contributed. If you get a gouge in base at the edge under the pressure zone beneath the bindings, that almost always going to be the place when another shark-strike will exploit the little lip between base and edge. I always fill those immediately with Metal Grip and or PTEX. It genuinely is side slipping and skidded turns over stones etc which cause the greatest damage. The Grom goes over stuff when charging and I think ‘aaaaargh’ re damage, but then I look at his bases and edges. Nothing. Maybe a disturbance of the wax. Meanwhile another skier does the exactly the same thing in the same location but tentatively and rips huge chucks out of their skis.
He has taught me a great deal and I did some ‘snick snick’ over sharks this year, which in previous years would have left deep gouges and scratches - worried all the way to the lift and then had a look. Barely anything. Hard to see where it had happened. ‘Hard and light’ is a good thing - technique just SO important.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Mjit, yeah that's the way I understood it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| valais2 wrote: |
| Layne….you’d have be doing things completely mad with the sidewall to cause edge loss. |
Thanks for the reassurance and yeah I think you are probably right. Just one of those things.
| valais2 wrote: |
The Grom goes over stuff when charging and I think ‘aaaaargh’ re damage, but then I look at his bases and edges. Nothing. Maybe a disturbance of the wax. Meanwhile another skier does the exactly the same thing in the same location but tentatively and rips huge chucks out of their skis.
He has taught me a great deal and I did some ‘snick snick’ over sharks this year, which in previous years would have left deep gouges and scratches - worried all the way to the lift and then had a look. Barely anything. Hard to see where it had happened. ‘Hard and light’ is a good thing - technique just SO important. |
Interesting that. I think aswell as being 100kgs I probably don't ski light enough because I've got all sorts of gauges in my skis where as the wife and kids seem to get away with it. My 18yo son is on new Enforcers this season and he's a bit paranoid about them. Last week he was like "disaster, I've gone over some rocks" and then we take a look at the base and I can barely see a scratch.
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@Layne, very interesting…exactly our experience
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| Mjit wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| A subsidiary question I guess would be (aside from racers) do people actually enjoy skiing boilerplate. I can't say as I do. |
On my SL skis? Yep, love it. Get those knees to the hill and the edges biting and you can really let the skis do their thing and do some lovelly carving turns that you can't later in the day when everything's cut up and a bit moglie (at least this "winter"!).
On my softer, wider skis? Not really, and after a couple of chattering runs I'm ready to ask the "Coffee...?" question. |
This. We had these kind of conditions before NY and I was generally slithering around in an unsatisfying way on my wide/ligh/softish skis. Next day I took my SLs out and remarked how much better the pistes were because I was carving turns comfortably. My kids said "it's really not the pistes Dad, it's your skis".
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@jedster, …ah…for me it’s always…’nah…it’s your age/technique…’ which always provides a nice incentive to improve….
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
| My 18yo son is on new Enforcers this season and he's a bit paranoid about them. Last week he was like "disaster, I've gone over some rocks" and then we take a look at the base and I can barely see a scratch. |
My main skis were second hand when I got them, reasonable condition but had clearly been skied. Tbh I think it's helped immensely because I'm not overly precious about them, so if they do pick up some damage then I'm not too fuss. Think I've had them for 6 or 7 years now and story still ski well even despite some ugly grooves.
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