 Poster: A snowHead
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just wanted to guage opinion here.
A ski holiday is not the cheapest holiday, but you can choose self-catering, hotel, restaurants, self-drive or flying to suit your budget. You may even be able to beg and borrow some equipment. But there is no escape the cost of the lift pass. A significant un-avoidable cost to any ski holiday, which in this day and age seems unusual that there are no alternatives. The pricing metric for a 6 day pass compared to a full season seems disproportionate. Why is a half day pass about 70% of the cost of the whole day ? The half day pass user does not incur any additional costs to the mountain. The costs of a skiing pass compared to a pedestrian pass seems unfair, and likewise with the summer rates for mtb compared to ski. The actual costs of running and staffing the chairlifts are identical irrespective of the time of year, or who is carried.
The 6 day pricing metric does not encourage an occasional skier - maybe someone in the party only wants to ski for one hour a day ? or maybe a timid intermediate only doing easy blues, but is beyond the beginner area is discouraged from feeling they get value from their pass.
it strikes me that all the resorts operate like a cartel - no one is prepared to break away from the current pricing structure. In other markets, you have Aldi who has disrupted the major grocers, Uber who has disrupted taxi drivers, and what Amazon has done to the high street is beyond compare, and perhaps more pertinent to holidays, Easyjet and others to airlines.
I guess where I am going, is that I am surprised there is not more flexibility on the lift pass structure to suit more people, and more equity between the duration of the passes, and who is carried.
Others may disagree. But i welcome other views.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In the French linked resorts, there is usually a "local" pass and an "area" pass. For those people that are unlikely to stray further afield, this provides the "Aldi" option you might be looking for.
Equally... One could always revert to the original skiing option? Climb the piste in the morning, have a picnic (carried by the butler), and then ski down in the afternoon. No lift pass required
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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when you consider the cost of lifts i.e building them then its pretty reasonable!
The replacement access lift in mayrhofen (penkenbhan) cost 50 million euro's back in 2015!! and that's just 1 gondola, modern ski hills have 30/40/50+ lifts.
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| Trickydicky wrote: |
| The 6 day pricing metric does not encourage an occasional skier |
This is kinda standard in any field isn't it.
Even Lidl has a loyalty card.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Disneyland Paris comparable with big resort pricing.
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@Trickydicky, in winter your lift pass has to pay for the piste preparation and maintenance, snow making, pisteurs. Very few lifts are open in summer so far fewer staff and running costs
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If resorts operated dynamic pricing lift passes would be hugely more expensive in school holidays. As are flights. And accommodation. And package holidays. People grumble about that, too!
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Lift passes are no different to the other costs you listed - you don't have to pay for one if you don't want to and can always skin up the hill for free. Like flying vs. driving though there's a balance between cost and convienience.
Also ARE lift passes that expensive? Let's say an average 6 day lift pass is £300 and the average skiier rides 10 lifts/day, that's £50/day or £5/ride. For comparison a London Underground zone 1 single is £2.80 with a daily fare cap of £8.10, while a single ride on Boris' gondola to/from nowhere is £6.00 - but can spread its operating costs over 24/7/365 and 4 million journeys/day, while a lift system is more like 8/7/150 and more like 1 million journeys/day on average (PdS has capacity for 250,776/hr - but that's every space in every gondola, every seat on every chair and drag/arm of a T bar from opening to closing, with all running at full speed without a single stoppage).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Why is a half day pass about 70%
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A half day pass is often known as a 4 hour pass. I read somewhere that the average numer of hours a skier actually spends skiing is 3 hours. Therefore, the 70% price of a half day ticket does, indeed, seem good value. However, when I once enquired buying one in Arc 1600 I was told that, as @jamescollings points out, there was a daily local area pass that just covered Arc1600, 1800 and Vallandry at a lower price than the 4 hour pass. The Les Arcs local area passes are not advertised very well and it pays to enquire at the lift pass office. If you are only in the resort for a couple days this is well worth enquiring about.
Season passes are indeed very good value compared to weekly prices. Ours breaks even at 13 days.
There are, of course, other pricing structures available such as the Ski à la Carte that many Snowheads use (https://www.skialacarte.fr/FrontOffice/) where you pay an upfront cost of 15-29€ then an extra charge every time you ski at one of the participting resorts and the season passes that allow any 2 days skiing within any 7 day period that are remarkably good value.
But what I suspect @Trickydicky, is advocating is something like a fixed standing charge, say 10€ a day you use the lifts to cover the capital costs plus, say, 5€ each time you use, say, a 6 person demountable or 2€ for a drag lift. The technology is there to do this but do we want it?
There is a lot of flexibilty in the pricing structure already with confusing tariffs based on things such as single skier, family passes, passes that give priority on some lifts age of skier and even different rates in the summer than winter already (In the summer users tend to use fewer lifts than during the winter so it makes sense that they pay more per uplift).
Don't worry the lift compnaies have thought very carefully how they can maximise their profits.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 3-01-24 13:43; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Trickydicky wrote: |
just wanted to guage opinion here.
The 6 day pricing metric does not encourage an occasional skier - maybe someone in the party only wants to ski for one hour a day ? or maybe a timid intermediate only doing easy blues, but is beyond the beginner area is discouraged from feeling they get value from their pass.
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Ironically, some of the most expensive areas have this exact flexiblity you seek. It was a slight shock to see that Dolomiti Superski lift tickets are 80 euros/day for the full area pass during peak weeks this year, BUT at least Alta Badia and Val Gardena have a points pass that would suit beginners & low mileage skiers very well - 2100 points for 150 euros, where the main gondolas are 180-200 points but smaller chairs & draglifts 20-50 points each. I imagine that the 2100 points could cover 5 days for the kind of person who just goes up the gondola and does 2-3 short runs to get to a nice place for lunch and then calls it a day - your hour a day skier scenario.
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interesting views.
Probably I would like to see is the price of an hour long pass directly relative to the whole daily rate (ie. one-sixth or one-fifth of the price) and a half day more relative to half the price of the whole day, and the 6 day pass more relative to the season pass. And maybe the idea that each lift ascent carries a tariff which is deducted from your balance like using the tube on your Oyster card ?
The traditional 6 day pass 'one-size-fits-all' is suited to a person who just skies for 4-5-6 hours a day. maximum skiing. and doesn't really suit anyone else.
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You know it makes sense.
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Have a look at list price costs in USA or Canada and you will soon realise that the European ones are good value……ten years ago they were almost double the cost…….  hence I’ve never been that pushed at trying Yankee/canadian skiing.
I’ve often wondered if there are any sites/face book pages where ski passes are offered at discounted rates but could never find one……another option would be to try and get someone with a season pass to ‘loan’ it to you for a reduced rate during a week they are not skiing. It’s probably not legal and would take a bit of luck to find a local who would be willing to ‘risk it’ but could be very fruitful….?
I’m sure it has been tried…?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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just to add into the mix. I had a friend who spent NY skiing in northern Finland, at Yllas.
Given the limited daylight, it was all floodlit, and he was able to ski a double shift right up to midnight on NYE, almost being able to ski for the equivalent for 2 days in one, until he was totally frost-bitten.
It just seems antiquated that all the resorts pretty much close their lifts at about 4.30pm, when from mid March onwards, they could offer skiing quite safely with enough daylight up to 6pm, without floodlights. They could also open earlier too.
Lifts are a differentiator for resorts when much of skiing is commoditised - it seems odd that they all follow the same pattern.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
And maybe the idea that each lift ascent carries a tariff which is deducted from your balance
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Many resorts offer "points passes" which do exactly this.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Some resorts are using dynamic pricing as in more expensive in busy weeks and cheaper in quieter weeks and a discount for booking ahead.
For example my 4 day pass for next week is Euro157 i.e. E40 per day, but if I went this week it would be E240 / E60 per day.
I guess that sucks if you are restricted to school holidays, you pay more and get crowded slopes, more queues and less skiing. But I guess it encourages those who can to ski in the quieter weeks / weekends.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
get someone with a season pass to ‘loan’ it to you for a reduced rate during a week they are not skiing.
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I suppose I could have managed it when my identical twin brother was alive, but the number of 72 YO grebeards that look like me must be pretty small. Your picture flashes up in the lifties hut.
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I suppose we have become quite sanguine about the price of lift passes.
I got a shock when I found that the Tignes/Val d'Isere lift pass for the first week of December was about €390 for a 6 day pass.
But the pistes were more packed than they have ever been for that week of the year.
There is something odd going on here.
The road traffic is about 300% than before the pandemic. (in our area anyway)
All restaurant price are more than 50% above what they were.
We've got used to £400 monthly bills to keep our home warm and lit.
Its almost as though we have the attitude that lets do it now while we can as it will only get worse.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Depends on the market, the costs, the clients and the owners.
Who are they trying to attract? I remember in Canada there was a strategic change from attracting Europeans / Japanese to more North Americans somewhere in the early 2000s, so the one-week passes (lessons?) disappeared. Forgot why.
Costs; if we are all demanding faster or bigger lifts to reduce queues, that will cost. Similarly lifties, I think NA are expensive as the lifts are better manned/managed.
Clients; local, day skiers, once a week, itinerant (includes X days at other resorts. No good for me but some seem to like it, presumably those living closer to the Alps?)
Owners; I hear more about Big Corp buying resorts to make a good profit, and I think that’s somehow different from 25 years ago. Known in NA some years ago, increasingly valid in Europe?
My thoughts on various factors, no idea which are predominant. But the last couple of times I checked Banff I gave up as apparently it would cost a fortune 
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Probably comes down to supply and demand.
Compared to last year ADH electricity costs quadrupled, they have to increase ski pass prices to cover this.
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Depends how well the guys in the hut inspect each person going through the lifts….I would guess it’s random enough unless they now have face/torso recognition set ups at each loft kiosk..?
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everyone needs to cover their costs, and the cost of running piste bashers at midnight carries a cost, and constructing new lifts. I dont expect the lifts to run for free, but i think the whole pricing structure is unequitable. the resorts all compete with each other in a short (and getting shorter) season. something different may work.
And there is scope for some resorts to offer something more equitable, and prices other than the 6 day pass which are a cost relative to the duration or scope of their validity.
passes for a subset of a ski terrain are prohibitively more expensive than the pass for the whole terrain. Take one valley compared to the whole 3 valleys pass. The uplift from one valley to 3 valleys is less than 10% in cost for about 60% in terrain.
theres lots of anomalies in lift passes which are unequitable, and un-fair. imho.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Trickydicky, assuming that all of the ski area is open there probably isn't a huge difference in operating cost to the resort between an average day and a very busy. Approx same number of staff needed, only a slight reduction in energy usage, approx same amount of grooming and the same repayments on loans for lifts. Therefore there is no incentive for the lift companies to incentivise lower lift usage which is what your proposals would do. To compensate for those who are happy to pay less for a reduced number of hours skiing they would have to up the day pass rate for those who want to ski without restrictions and I imagine that this would deter more keen skiers that it would attract half arsed skiers.
I could see a commercial argument for a slightly reduced price week lift pass that doesn't start till 10:30 each morning as this would ease the worst overcrowding in many resorts and possibly reduce the need for lift upgrades in some spots.
Verbier, Zermatt, the Haute maurienne resorts, amd probably others all offer dynamic pricing. Les Arcs does cheap Saturdays. Val d'Isere/Tignes give you a free Sunday with a 6 day pass which should help ease the traffic on Saturday. Magic Pass offers incredible to those who can make use of it. Some small resorts (st Foy) offer very cheap passes while still mostly having fast lifts.
The one thing I don't understand is why busy resorts often have more expensive passes than quiet ones even if the quiet one had mostly modern lifts as surely the more people are using a lift/piste the more people the operating and capital costs are shared between? Unless the busy ones are just creaming in the profit. Sainte Foy v 3V for example. Sure, 3V has hugely higher total costs but if the lifts are busier on average in the 3V than Sainte Foy then I don't see what makes 3V more expensive to run per head than Sainte Foy. Possibly Sainte Foy attracts substantially more people who buy a week's pass but only ski for 3 hours per day which makes it feel quiet but the resort is still selling a decent number of passes. Then again, places like the 3V have no need to be competitive on price so why would they bother trying to offer value.
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@Mjit, 10 lifts a day?
Last year in Sella Ronda I averaged over 30 runs a day
Seems quite reasonable to pay €60/day (~€10/hr) given the lift infrastructure/piste maintenance/snow making/energy consumption/staffing etc etc
It gets relatively expensive for beginners if they need a full lift pass - several places do points systems
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Trickydicky, what you want is for everyone to be charged per vertical m that they ski. With smart gates it would be possible to do this but it wouldn't make for a relaxing holiday knowing that lift was another lift was another 5 euros. What would happen is people would call it a day if the visibility wasn't perfect or the snow wasn't quite to their liking or they were feeling a bit tired. I might even tour more. All of this would lose the lift companies money without reducing their operating costs very much. Hence why they don't want to do this
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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i agree there are some lift incentives - however, the free Sunday won't appeal to most who have a Saturday flight. any incentive or price concession is practically nothing compared to other parts of the holiday or, indeed anything else you would readily spend £1500 on for the family.
there could be an off-peak rate - after 10.30, like perhaps on the UK rail. The technology is there.
My conclusion, as someone who has skied about x10 times, is that the resorts are happy to offer a lop-sided pricing structure, knowing that most people aren't able to use a season pass, and while a one-hour a day pass, or maybe 3-5 lifts, would suit some, it is better to fleece everyone for a full 6 day pass.
However, I dont understand why a subset of a ski domain is disproportionately more expensive than the whole domain.
i doubt our comments on here will change anything - interesting comments.
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| Sneachta2013 wrote: |
| …another option would be to try and get someone with a season pass to ‘loan’ it to you for a reduced rate during a week they are not skiing. It’s probably not legal and would take a bit of luck to find a local who would be willing to ‘risk it’ but could be very fruitful….? |
Otherwise known as stealing. Which raises the cost for the rest of us. Brilliant idea. Karma awaits.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Trickydicky, it makes sense that you don't get 66% off for restricting yourself to 33% of the ski area. Imagine if everyone in the 3V only skied in their 'home' valley but skied for the same amount as normal. The total costs to the lift companies would be identical but everyone would want a massive discount. You can only ski 1 run at a time, the cost to the operating company is the same regardless of which valley that is in
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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i wouldnt call it stealing - the lifts are running irrespective of whether you as a season ticket holder are on there, and there are plenty of empty seats. nothing is stolen. everything is bolted down. you have transferred your pass to someone else - which is against their rules, but we seem to agree that the lift companies are happy to adopt unfair pricing practices. if you can get away with it, fair game. but i expect if you're caught, your pass is confiscated, which is not worth the chance.
i notice the 'special' deal in the 3 valleys on a saturday. 60e for a saturday for all 3 valleys, but 'only' 58.50 for Val Thorens only.
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Poster: A snowHead
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"if you can get away with it, fair game"
What business are you in? And on what planet?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Trickydicky, if one person doesn't pay who otherwise would others will pay - in the following season when new lift prices are set
Tiny fractions of a eurocent obviously per person, but if enough do it...
Who says the lift companies are adopting unfair practices - just because you think it's expensive maybe it's down to not fully appreciating the costs involved (and yes there's profit obviously - and quite possibly recovering some Covid related costs )? And pricing for multiple days - every day you add to a pass generally gets a cheaper price per day overall; a season ticket is an extension of that
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There where discussions a while back about shared passes. There is a 'legitimate' situation where parents have to do childcare so only one can be skiing at any one time. Technically resorts don't allow it and could confiscate your pass. We did it once many years ago (in 3V) - 2 passes to cover me, wife and grandma. But that is very different to what is being suggested above.
I think the question the OP is asking is our resorts having to compete fairly on lift pass prices or are they colluding and maintaining an artificially high price. I'm not convinced on the latter myself.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| Sneachta2013 wrote: |
| …another option would be to try and get someone with a season pass to ‘loan’ it to you for a reduced rate during a week they are not skiing. It’s probably not legal and would take a bit of luck to find a local who would be willing to ‘risk it’ but could be very fruitful….? |
Otherwise known as stealing. Which raises the cost for the rest of us. Brilliant idea. Karma awaits. |
Yeah, Karma awaits, but I'm not superstitious and I was speaking very hypothetically and the probability of anyone anyone being successful with what I outlined is very slim and even less likely that it would reach a scale to have any impact on ski lift costs so I think you can 'sleep easily' on this matter.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Trickydicky, interesting discussion and most of the points covered. The normal mistake is thinking of ways where it benefits the customer, not ways where it mutually benefits the customer and the business - and the reason why most loyalty schemes are based on 'a value exchange'.
As has been mentioned, Paradiski introduced dynamic pricing this year. So quieter non-peak weeks were significantly cheaper than the standard price that was charged last year (30% cheaper), but as far as I can see the peak week prices were in line with last year (with maybe a inflationary rise). That's really quite fair, but only works if the demand for non-peak weeks increases enough to cover the reduced price. If it doesn't, then they've just lost money - and either dynamic pricing will go or peak prices will rise.
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For a bit of perspective on lift pass prices the new lift up to the glacier in La Plagne opened this month with a final cost of twenty five million Euros.
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| Sneachta2013 wrote: |
| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| Sneachta2013 wrote: |
| …another option would be to try and get someone with a season pass to ‘loan’ it to you for a reduced rate during a week they are not skiing. It’s probably not legal and would take a bit of luck to find a local who would be willing to ‘risk it’ but could be very fruitful….? |
Otherwise known as stealing. Which raises the cost for the rest of us. Brilliant idea. Karma awaits. |
Yeah, Karma awaits, but I'm not superstitious and I was speaking very hypothetically and the probability of anyone anyone being successful with what I outlined is very slim and even less likely that it would reach a scale to have any impact on ski lift costs so I think you can 'sleep easily' on this matter. |
It's not easy, plenty of places uses cameras and I saw people being randomly checked in France, I guess they were on season passes. We are probably not that far away from more intelligent cameras checking who uses the passes.
I was also thinking about buying longer passes and reselling it later but not sure how many resorts forbids it. e.g. in kronplatz the pass is named so when I lost it i could easily get it back for a small fee (5-10e) without having a receipt.
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| Quote: |
| For a bit of perspective on lift pass prices the new lift up to the glacier in La Plagne opened this month with a final cost of twenty five million Euros. |
Safe in the knowledge that they're coining it in from lift pass sales and will make it back in due course 
The skier and boarder numbers involved can be staggering. A regular contributor to the Tignes/Val D thread often reports on numbers going up and down the valley each weekend. IIRC, it can run at over 100,000 visitors on peak weekends...multiplied by €400 for 6 days on the snow. The sums involved are simply mindblowing over the course of a season.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Sneachta2013 wrote: |
| Depends how well the guys in the hut inspect each person going through the lifts….I would guess it’s random enough unless they now have face/torso recognition set ups at each loft kiosk..? |
In the 3 Valleys your photo flashes up on a computer screen at each lift, making lift passes non transferable.
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Saying all of the above we seem to have 6 day 3v passes for £253 with our accommodation in Les menuires I think it’s incredible value compared to cost of a session in an indoor fridge in uk. Even in Tignes a 6 day pass is 396 euros (and you get an added day free). Skiing isn’t cheap but if you look at the cost per day and the infastructure behind it and costs to maintain, difficult to complain too much
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FAQ
I wouldn't pay 144 euros for two of us to do the same now.
