so far the extent of my mid life crisis has been getting a bike on the cycle to work scheme (and cycling to work- but not for a year or so, at times wearing rather streeeached lycra) and telemarking (and moaning about how sore I am afterwards).
My now 10 year old eldest son, although he seems to already have a teenage sense of ennui, is an OK skier (as he bloody should be having had at least 2 sometimes 3 weeks since the age of 3) and wants to learn to telemark (just like me??? or so he can beat me????).
I am already the proud owner of a family quiver of skis (Line prophets with dukes, Line Prophet flites with cobras, salmon folis with cobra plates, dynastar exclusive legends, salmon thrusters, atomic race 130 and kids 120s and a selection of boots of various kids sizes and adult boots, alpine, touring, tele.....).
I am currently the winning (only) bidder for a pair of garment telesaurus kids tele boots (there are also some women's boots that might fit the blighter).
I think I could probably get some second hand (foot) tele bindings for£15 or so, and an old pair of kids skis (maybe something like a salomon fish or other twin tippy foam fest) and either- get busy in the car port with a drill and epoxy- or go to my friendly ski shop and get them to botch it for me, or even get a proper mount (somewhere- possibly chamonix if we go there) or any ski shop happy to have a go without a jig).
So- financially a tele set up for a 10 year old for less than £100 (maybe).
But- is this a clear sign of madness????
Or if I can get junior to free his heel will I be transported to another realm of existence? I say possibly- it will also slow him down so we can ski with 7 year old son on alpine gear.
Anyone tried this? Any success?? Or failures? Or videos...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
This guy started tele at 10 apparently and lacks confidence
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
he might be a bit young for the inevitable female attention....
have seen a few youngs uns rockin tele, there's even tele family i used to see quite a bit - kids are getting big now so think they're gone boarding
mounting em aint no thang, you'll get a paper hole pattern online for pretty much any binding and with a bit of care and forethought you'll be able to do it no danger, equally any decent shop should do this for you for very little.
If you got to Ottavalo they'll probably mount the skis for you for as close to nothing as makes no odds if it's for a kid. They're like that.
They also have a range of cheap, second hand tele boots if you get stuck.
The ski tech has also been known to, errr, "magic up" bindings.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
FlyingStantoni, I thought his name was Jeremy til SZK corrected me. He has certainly replaced a whole section of a cobra gratis (the springs and rear wires) and was great with my pesky brood.
still looking for pratical advice o trying to teach a nipper to tele though.
ed123, I saw a group having tele lessons a couple of years ago - mixed ages, but the youngest lad was about 10. They looked as though they were having a lot of fun.
My advice would be to put him in a ski school, and then go and do something nice whilst someone else teaches him!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w, very hard to get tele lessons. So a DIY approach is probably needed and part of the whole deal!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Our local ski school advertises tele lessons but it probably depends on their getting at least 3 people together.
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Where are you? If you're within a reasonable distance of tamworth you might be able to get some initial instruction through http://www.telemark-skiing.co.uk/
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
ed123, we stayed, long ago, at a chalet in Les Houches where the owners specialised in Telemark. Can't remember anything about it, however!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
ed123 wrote:
still looking for pratical advice o trying to teach a nipper to tele though.
Are you looking for a teaching progression for you, or suggestions about someone to take them to?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FlyingStantoni, tips on teaching him myself I think.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
My preferred teaching progression is based on the an American approach, rather than BASI's:
1) Straight run on flat terrain to telemark "position" (omit if good terrain not available)
2) Telemark traverse to stop
3) Parallel turns with telemark "traverse" in between turns
4) Repeat (2) focussing on weaker telemark side 2:1
5) Parallel turn and bring a drop into telemark "position" into the last third of the turn - stand tall - parallel turn, etc
6) Repeat (2) focussing on weaker telemark side 2:1
7) Telemark traverses with repeatedly "stand tall, drop to telemark" to build stance
Parallel turn with the objective of dropping into telemark at the fall line
9) Traverses, this time lead changing across the slope
11) And more lead change traverses - building quickness
12) Stick is all together:
- set off in telemark "position"
- monomark turn across fall line (edge change)
- lead change down / into fall line
...and you're there.
If you've got mixed terrain (i.e. shallow pitch, steep pitch), then use the steeper pitches for traverse drills.
I like this approach because it teaches edge change before lead change from the "off". It also gives people a nice lazy way of telemarking - i.e. parallel into fall line, telemark, parallel into fall line, telemark.
Edited to better explain step 12. Which needs a diagram really...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Noooooo. As my teenage son once remarked "Why would you ruin a good pair of skis by putting those daft bindings on them?"
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
FlyingStantoni, ^ 5, 6 and 7, specifically the "stand tall" parts - the kool kids aint standing too tall these days it seems, been trying this recently (ie staying relatively crouched through the "transition", and it feels good if maybe not technically or classically correct(?)
barry, there's a couple of issues here:
- how low/mid/high is the telemark "stance" and how compact/long
- do you move from that position at lead change
My view is that if you want to be great skier then you need to be able to do all of these.
But, the point of "standing tall" in the teaching progression is that few beginners motor awareness or strength to go straight into telemark to telemark lead change without going through parallel. And that's what the "stand tall" is about.
I'm sure you'll realise this, but flexion and extension in telemark are way more important than the are in alpine as it's much harder to put pressure through a telemark binding and into the ski. Flexion and extension are really important in this respect - even though, when you progress, you can generate pressure in other ways.
As a teaching principle, it's better to instil flexion and extension and then remove it than not teach it and try to add it later.
Edited to completely reword as previous version was done in a hurry as a bus stop.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Staying crouched in a low position is fine on groomed trails. It will feel great & frankly it works fine. The challenge comes when the terrain is varied. Once you're in that low stance it's hard to control the weight on the rear ski. You can't put more pressure on it because you're already 'down there.' 'Standing tall' allows you to control the rear ski weighting better & therefore change leads more efficiently. The low stance isn't "technically" incorrect, but it's definitely inefficient. When I began telemarking I did that low stance because I found it easier to weight my rear ski. I was told this is a "classic Norwegian" style of the turn. I guess with long heavy skis & leather boots it was how the turn was done. I guess plastic boots & lighter shaped skis have changed that
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
farlep99, I largely agree, but I'd differentiate between "low and long" (classic Norwegian style) and "low and compact"...
...which I think we can all agree is pretty damned good.
(And, my, how I wish I could telemark like that.)
I'm told that in (the original) classic Norwegian form of telemarking all weight was kept on the front foot and the rear foot was used to "rudder" because the skis didn't have any sidecut - so the bio-mechanical inefficiency wasn't an issue.
The modern "ideal" of being closer to 50-50 weight distribution (except for racing) requires a more compact stance - low or tall (but not so tall that you're skiing alpine!).
For me, the key thing is that you become a one-dimensional skier if you don't have a vertical range of motion. You certainly can't absorb terrain pressure changes effectively.
But, the point of "standing tall" in the teaching progression is that few beginners motor awareness or strength to go straight into telemark to telemark lead change without going through parallel. And that's what the "stand tall" is about..
Just to be pedantic you have to be fairly special to lead change without going through parallel momentarily?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
maybe it is a necessary step in the learning progression, but i certainly found the "standing tall" a bit awkward - ie dropping back down with back ski getting totally unweighted the first few (several!) times i did it. As I learned a bit more and started getting it, I found it easier to pressure the rearfoot ball and so the ski if a bit more "compact" before the drop (exactly as farlep99 describes). I dont generally drop down that low in the turn, but do keep a fairly compact/"low" stance generally. Maybe it was just that i struggled with the "exagerated" stand tall in terms of the up-transition-drop that's the main teaching progression. Must deconstruct it again actually now I can ski a bit with "my way" and see if it comes a bit more easily.
ed123, best to mostly ignore the discussions after FlyingStantoni's point by point guide!!
Main thing is that low or high, tall or short, the fandan just cant get enough of telly! (maybe keep that great news back from the nipper for a few years yet!)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
fatbob, superb!
After all it is free
After all it is free
^ lol, "make sure you recycle that"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Is the sort of telemarking you're all talking about done on ski touring (ie stiff plastic) boots and normal width skis?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
fatbob wrote:
FlyingStantoni wrote:
But, the point of "standing tall" in the teaching progression is that few beginners motor awareness or strength to go straight into telemark to telemark lead change without going through parallel. And that's what the "stand tall" is about..
Just to be pedantic you have to be fairly special to lead change without going through parallel momentarily?
Good point, well made *
What I mean is:
- tele position...slide in that position...stand to alpine parallel...slide in that position - re-centre - re-balance - pluck up courage...drop to tele...slide in that position, etc.
* Although subject to much more discussion at Interski that you might imagine.
In some national telemark teaching systems they talk about the "alpine phase" of the turn. In the American system they apparently teach that you should momentarily "rebalance" in an alpine parallel halfway through the lead change. In the BASI system the objective is that the feet are never momentarily static next to each other - so the lead change is smooth and continuous. Apparently, the emerging consensus is that, to be "telemark" both heels must be up as the feet pass each other.
Personally, I think they should all get out and ski more
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
Personally, I think they should all get out and ski more
Agreed!!!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
pam w wrote:
Is the sort of telemarking you're all talking about done on ski touring (ie stiff plastic) boots and normal width skis?
pam w, telemark-specific boots, telemark-specific bindings and normal skis.
The heel lifts on touring bindings and, in principle, you could "sort of" telemark on them, but the bindings aren't designed to handle the forces by doing a telemark turn.
In addition, telemark boots have a "bellows" (picture here -
www.telemarktips.com/Resources/NTN100days12.jpg) between the toes and the instep, which allows the boot to bend so that you can get more pressure into the ski.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
FlyingStantoni, thanks. I have some new cross country skis and was looking at a few videos about XC technique, prior to getting some private lessons next week. They do "telemark" turns on those skis though only the most able could possibly contemplate such a thing, on narrow skis and boots with virtually no ankle support. I shall be very pleased if I can attempt a few gentle stepping turns or even do a competent snow plough.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
^ I've tried it on XC skis, not a pretty sight! Seen it done well though too. Love the XC for pre-work quick skis around the woods or on stormbound days up high or whatever.
there's some "middleground" too, for instance "XCD" (cross country downhill), wider than XC, with metal edges, bigger boots but generally not the big stiff boots that pair with the "normal" big skis these days. The equivalent really of a pure AT setup, only tele.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Of today to experiment with all the above discussions. Will be back to let you know how much fun I had later!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I think telemark is one of those areas where trying to reach an international consensus on correct form or style or even specific elements is likely to be like nailing jelly to a plate. So much of modern telemark has been driven by equipment developments and to a certain extent newcomers to the discipline just coming in and developing their own style that it feels a bit of a backwards step to try and impose straightjackets on it.
For instance although he's very talented I don't consider the insanely fast style of Prevost above particularly aesthetically pleasing. Equally the totally strung out old school dog leg just looks dated and inefficient. I think it's always going to be just a bit of fun on the side for me as I've neither got the knees, snowtime nor discipline to go through the full reconstruction including wide separation between my legs. I guess this means in telemark terms I'm beginning to recognise that I'm just a low intermediate plateau gaper and that's sort of ok.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
fat bob wrote:
...I'm beginning to recognise that I'm just a low intermediate plateau gaper and that's sort of ok.
The important question is "are you having fun when you do it?" though
Personally, I like Prevost's style (which is why I keep re-posting the clip) - it's his sheer fluidity I wish I could get somewhere close to.
I find Dufour a bit too "scrappy" and bordering on "dog leggy". Although, head to head, does his skiing kick my sorry back bottom? Hell yes!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
summer, don't have too much fun. Not when I've got the work I've got to do today. It wouldn't be fair.
FlyingStantoni, I have fun when it goes, when one of my knees issues a "refusal" on the first turn I know its not going to be too enjoyable. I got to the stage of taking alpine boots to Hemel as backup so I didn't waste a 2 hr ticket last summer.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
^ I always try to make right turns exclusively if anyone is filming, snapping or gettin all giddy whilst watching me (funnily enough the opposite side was/is my weaker side with fixed heels ). It's good fun, though not too precious about it - just another way to enjoy getting out on the hill (about to get a tech/dyna setup to, so not completely fully married to tele)
check out the Worst Crew, gettin it on lurky style and seem a fun bunch given the name
I have fun when it goes, when one of my knees issues a "refusal" on the first turn I know its not going to be too enjoyable. I got to the stage of taking alpine boots to Hemel as backup so I didn't waste a 2 hr ticket last summer.
Why? If I'm knackered or my body is not up to doing tele turns I just do parallel turns on telekit, I don't find doing 'alpine' turns on telekit any harder than doing alpine turns on alpine kit - if you get my meaning.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Don't particularly like the teleboot slop when skiing alpine and getting forward on them I find difficult as the cuff is very soft.
After all it is free
After all it is free
barry, that vid just makes me smile. Nice find
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
Don't particularly like the teleboot slop when skiing alpine and getting forward on them I find difficult as the cuff is very soft.
Have you tried NTN's yet? Very powerful, way less slop when parallel turning. I actually don't use them but I've demo'd them & was really pleased with how easy the parallel turns were.
Quote:
So much of modern telemark has been driven by equipment developments and to a certain extent newcomers to the discipline just coming in and developing their own style that it feels a bit of a backwards step to try and impose straightjackets on it.
Defintely agree with this (see NTN above). Gets back to what I was told when I started- "there's no right way to tele, but there is a wrong way." Kind of makes sense
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
farlep99 +1 in both respects.
I get waaaaaay less thigh burn skiing my NTNs parallel than I used to get skiing my T2Xs on Hammerheads.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Parallel turn with the objective of dropping into telemark 
(funnily enough the opposite side was/is my weaker side with fixed heels 
). It's good fun, though not too precious about it - just another way to enjoy getting out on the hill (about to get a tech/dyna setup to, so not completely fully married to tele)
