 Poster: A snowHead
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I haven't seen this posted anywhere. It is in the daily mail but seems quite a well written report. Nothing too sensational. Although Alleghe is consistently misspelled in the article.
The article is here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13448631/brit-skier-accused-killing-ex-mayor-skiing-crash-court.html
From the sound of it, the skier hit the ex-mayor and president of the local ski club at high speed and he died in the helicopter while being transferred to hospital. Very sad all round.
The accident was a couple of years ago and the court hearing has been adjourned until later this year when the skier will give evidence.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Gosh -what a very sad story. And what a total twit his girlfriend is, insisting "it was just an accident". Nobody's suggesting it was murder! We have all had incidents on the road when a cyclist, or a pedestrian, or even a car "just appeared in front of us" and realised with a jolt that we hadn't been paying attention! Interesting that his own social media postings will be used in evidence against him......
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Origen, isnt it his lawyers who are insisting it’s an accident, which is what they are paid to do
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Yes it was, sorry, but whoever is insisting on it, it's surely irrelevant. If I fail to see a cyclist coming round a roundabout and knock him off his bike and he dies of his injuries, the fact that I had no intention of killing him is hardly the point, as the cyclist already on the roundabout had right of way, like a downhill skier does.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Article suggests it happened "on the Fertazza slope". There's a wide open spot at the top which has a couple of reds, a black and a very chargey blue run, which all merge briefly and then split into narrow runs, effectively a big crossroads. Can easily see how someone could be motoring in that spot and not paying enough attention to where others are coming from or may be crossing their path....although that's not to excuse it, should always be aware of surroundings, especially when going at speed
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| Origen wrote: |
| Yes it was, sorry, but whoever is insisting on it, it's surely irrelevant. If I fail to see a cyclist coming round a roundabout and knock him off his bike and he dies of his injuries, the fact that I had no intention of killing him is hardly the point, as the cyclist already on the roundabout had right of way, like a downhill skier does. |
Just a general comment here. It's not really irrelevant when they are talking about liability for it no. And prosecution for causing the death (which is what I assume is happening, not read the article as it is not relevant to this point) does look at what type of actions led to the incident. Whether is was purely an accident or if was the result of dangerous actions by the skier.
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| Arno wrote: |
| @Origen, isnt it his lawyers who are insisting it’s an accident, which is what they are paid to do |
Surely they can only say that if he says its so. If he told them I was skiing too fast , wasnt paying attention and mowed him down they couldn’t then run a defence of a simple accident
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The article does say the skier believes it was an accident and told police he 'hadn't seen' Mr Ongaro and that he 'just appeared' in front of him. It could well be at the junction that @SnoodyMcFlude mentions. I guess we'll just have to hear what the witnesses say in the full hearing later this year.
I'm glad to see that the Daily Mail has now corrected their spelling of 'Alleghe'.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@olderscot, the Paltrow defence?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Surely the point is whether an ""accident" can really exist in a person on person collision in skiing? I prefer to think no, though I do have some sympathies in fringe cases like a skier loses their edges on unforeseen ice and as a result slides into someone else or a binding shatters. If they are coming in far too hot for the traffic on the slope etc I lose that sympathy anyway.
The vast majority of things painted as accidents are a result of someone having insufficient observation, skill or control to avoid someone else ahead of them. The real problem* piste skiing has is far too many people who just accept that "accidents happen" and it's all just a bit of a laff. Until it isn't.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If I knocked down a cyclist on a roundabout (as I nearly did, one dark evening last winter) I would be reluctant to confess that "he'd just appeared" and I "hadn't noticed him" as that definitely suggests driving without due care and attention.
If I'd been approaching the roundabout at a high speed, so that even when he did appear, I couldn't avoid hitting him, I'd be scared of being done for dangerous driving. On that occasion the cyclist did fall off his bike, as he thought (reasonably) that I was going to hit him and he had a huge heavy black bag of something on his handlebars, totally obscuring where his light would have been, had he had one. I stopped my car where it was, with hazard flashers on in case anybody else swept round the roundabout and got out to see whether he was OK and help him up. He said he was fine and was very keen to get back on the bike and pedal off, muttering something about "being on his way to the tip" which was so desperately unconvincing at 8pm that I decided it was a bag of swag from a robbery. Had he had the classic burglar's black and white stripes on, instead of being dressed head to toe in black, I'd probably have seen him sooner and not had to jam the brakes on so fast.
I felt terribly guilty and it was the nearest I've ever come to a RTA but I think he felt guiltier....
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@olderscot, hmm. That's pretty damning, isn't it? A "beginner" who posts his mighty exploits on the internet. In my limited experience of Italian skiing they aren't bad with the "pericoloso" signs at junctions. You can't help feeling sorry for the bloke though, how terrible to have killed anyone, especially a local hero.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Origen wrote: |
| If I knocked down a cyclist on a roundabout (as I nearly did, one dark evening last winter) I would be reluctant to confess that "he'd just appeared" and I "hadn't noticed him" as that definitely suggests driving without due care and attention. . |
the SMIDSY defence works quite well in the British courts though
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Origen wrote: |
| If I knocked down a cyclist on a roundabout (as I nearly did, one dark evening last winter) I would be reluctant to confess that ... I felt terribly guilty and it was the nearest I've ever come to a RTA but I think he felt guiltier.... |
In my own case I was run down, whilst on my bike not in my fancy car, by a car driver from behind.
The police refused to attend the scene of an attempted murder, and failed to prosecute the driver.
I had been using the "advanced stop lane", which my failed murderer and David Davis no doubt think is "woke".
I even went to my MP to force the police to look at the case as I had some appalled witnesses.
They were not appalled enough that the police couldn't dissuade them from standing, which they subsequently did.
My remaining option was a private prosecution, and at that time I didn't have the cash for that.
The next violent car driver to try to murder me may be successful, but if he's not then the law's not going to help.
I suppose I could steal their car from them in "self defence" next time: they can't run me down again if I disarm them.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ster wrote: |
| @olderscot, the Paltrow defence? |
For that the Brit guy would also need to claim that the dead guy did some sort of pervy grunting/frottage and buy off a ski instructor to testify on his side.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@phil_w, Anyone on the road, or the ski slope, who hits anyone else from behind is generally at fault. The fancyness of the car is irrelevant, of course, unless you have a particular axe to grind. My very unfancy car could have done no end of damage to a cyclist, had I made contact with him. Which I didn't.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| phil_w wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
| If I knocked down a cyclist on a roundabout (as I nearly did, one dark evening last winter) I would be reluctant to confess that ... I felt terribly guilty and it was the nearest I've ever come to a RTA but I think he felt guiltier.... |
In my own case I was run down, whilst on my bike not in my fancy car, by a car driver from behind.
The police refused to attend the scene of an attempted murder, and failed to prosecute the driver.
I had been using the "advanced stop lane", which my failed murderer and David Davis no doubt think is "woke".
I even went to my MP to force the police to look at the case as I had some appalled witnesses.
They were not appalled enough that the police couldn't dissuade them from standing, which they subsequently did.
My remaining option was a private prosecution, and at that time I didn't have the cash for that.
The next violent car driver to try to murder me may be successful, but if he's not then the law's not going to help.
I suppose I could steal their car from them in "self defence" next time: they can't run me down again if I disarm them. |
DO you mean attempted murder? He actually intended to kill you?
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@jedster, I would guess it is somewhat hyperbolic but without a plug in to someone's mind how can one tell the differences between negligent disregard, angry "I'll show them"actions and murderous intent.
If I point a loaded gun at someone and then "accidentally" pull the trigger I'd probably expect to be charged first with murder even if my intent were simply posturing. Just we don't regard cars and, indeed, skis as weapons with the same potential lethality.
Elsewhere and in another potential case, a coroner didn't seem to find it hard to classify a skier collision as homicide.#https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/local/skiers-death-ruled-a-homicide/article_4c17691c-03f0-11ef-981f-7b1e31b644cf.html
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Origen wrote: |
| Yes it was, sorry, but whoever is insisting on it, it's surely irrelevant. If I fail to see a cyclist coming round a roundabout and knock him off his bike and he dies of his injuries, the fact that I had no intention of killing him is hardly the point, as the cyclist already on the roundabout had right of way, like a downhill skier does. |
It could be the difference between causing death by dangerous driving (max sentence life) and causing death by careless driving (max sentence 5 years) or maybe even no charge at all
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But they're all "accidents" if nobody set out with the intention to kill?
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Does there need to be intent for "murder" which is the word @phil_w used? My initial point was the lawyers' suggestion that this was a "tragic accident" in no way excuses the action of the Brit whose actions gave rise to it. Those actions might, depending on how the case goes, be deemed to have been "careless" but it sounds as though it was more culpable than that, and if it's true that his lawyers initially suggested he was a beginner and had been skiing slowly etc etc then......the game is probably up? The "plea bargain" he turned down was probably his best bet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Origen, I don’t think we know enough about the incident to reach a conclusion. The article is pretty light on exactly what happened
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No, obviously we don't. I just took a dislike to the "it was just an accident" line!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Interestingly the UK police refer to road traffic incidents or collisions
The accident word not used
They establish the circumstances of the incident and establish who if anyone is at fault so a tyre blow out may excuse or not depending on the standard of maintenance of the vehicle
They also consider degree of culpability and apportion between those involved
Charging descision follows on
I guess the Italian magistrate system will follow a similar ie logical process
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Origen wrote: |
| Does there need to be intent for "murder" which is the word @phil_w used? |
Yes, in the UK. I can't quite remember my A-level Law well enough to be certain but I believe the standard is "malice aforethought", i.e an intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. Most other killing without intent (i.e not cause serious harm) falls under the crime of manslaughter
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@SnoodyMcFlude, yep. Mens rea, to use the technical term.
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You know it makes sense.
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Whilst it is clear Phil W was wronged by the driver who hit him and the police treatment of it all by the tone of his post, 'murder' in the UK has to be intentional. You have to intend to kill (or seriously injure) the person that has died. It is not a charge that is virtually ever brought in an RTA as the most serious is normally death be dangerous driving.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Legend.,
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murder' in the UK has to be intentional. You have to intend to kill
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Yes, already confirmed twice above.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
@Legend.,
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murder' in the UK has to be intentional. You have to intend to kill
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Yes, already confirmed twice above. |
Can't quite be certain does not equal confirmation...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Legend., sorry? What was uncertain about my contention that you need mens rea for murder?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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One thing to consider is when Ayrton Senna died in the crash in Italy.
The designer and mechanic were on manslaughter charges with potentially long jail sentences.
Italian law is weird that way and this is a possibility here.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
One thing to consider is when Ayrton Senna died in the crash in Italy.
The designer and mechanic were on manslaughter charges with potentially long jail sentences.
Italian law is weird that way and this is a possibility here. |
Thats my reference too, from the sporting interest in observation.
Apparently things like "death by misadventures, accidental cause" type court proceeding and conclusion are not a path within Italian law. There has to be a responsibility definitive conclusion at the end of case there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Legend., sorry? What was uncertain about my contention that you need mens rea for murder? |
Ok so we had ‘uncertain’ and then a foreign language (Latin) term that 99% of people on here and most other places will not understand. That is your ‘confirmed twice’…?!
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@Hurtle noted that mens rea was the technical term. I think most of us can grasp that..... I managed it, despite never having studied Latin or the law. I can understand sub judice too. And bona fide and carpe diem. 
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Not sure what carp fishing has to do with anything.
Anyways, sounds like an accident.
Randos sliding around on ice with big metal planks is always going to have accidents.
Acquit, and move on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This thread really has taken a very odd turn.
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| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
One thing to consider is when Ayrton Senna died in the crash in Italy.
The designer and mechanic were on manslaughter charges with potentially long jail sentences. |
Diverting completely off track, a friend of mine used to work at a place that did shot-peening. They had a rush job the week before Imola to do some suspension parts for Williams, so in the aftermath of the incident Ian was absolutely terrified it was his work that had contributed to the death of Senna 
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