 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
I have recently had my Black Crow Camox skis serviced at Snow and Rock Chill Factore to fix a small amount of base and edge damage.
It looks like they have set re-ground the base and edge angle to 1 degree even after I request that the factory angles (1.3* base, 3* edge) be maintained.
Is it possible to restore the factory angles ?
What impact will this have on the skis?
What would the snowheads recommend I do ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Go skiing and don’t worry about it
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As the World Cup season is over unlikely to have any impact.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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How you know the angles have been set to 1?
Was it specified on the documentation they be set to 1.3, 3?
If you have strong evidence per the above then I would imagine you can go back to the shop to remedy it. And yes, afaik, it can be remedied. In fact as you increasing the angle, it wouldn't be difficult.
A lot/most shops grind rather than simple hand service - one of the advantages of DIYing, which is what I do. If I took to a shop I would look for somewhere that did it by hand. Grinding afaik will reduce the life of the ski. Other than that no impact I believe.
Personally I think you would notice a difference in edge angle between 1 and 3 on hard pack. That is why I set all the families skis to that regardless of the factory setting.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@cav0, welcome to SH.
If its as you say, then quite a bit will have been removed, but as long as there is enough material left in the edge, then yes it should be recoverable.
Once you recut the angles, ski should be back to how you remember it, although obviously the more you remove, the less there is to work with in the future.
What would I do about it? Well the obvious thing is complain to SnR but the best they'll offer you is to rectify the issue - and do you want that? Probably best to chalk it up to experience, and get your kit together to service them yourself then you always have the final say on what your angles are.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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that sounds like a big regrind to get it back in Spec, you would loose some longevity of the edges due to the regrind. Presumably, they'll already taken off quite a bit of edge to get it from the manufacturer's spec to 1 degree.
https://support.black-crows.com/hc/en-us/articles/12380419076626-what-are-the-tuning-specs-of-my-skis
I guess that they were a little careless and picked up the std settings for the Jr or freebird versions.
If you have clear evidence that you specifically instructed 1.3/3, they really should compensate or replace as it is clearly their error.
And yeah, you are going to notice a difference when you ski on them.
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@cav0, a run-of the-mill ski service machine that you're likely to see in the UK isn't capable of putting anything other than 1 degree on the side edge and I'm also surprised that you think you got 1 degree on the base - they're not usually capable of that either. Or by a grind, do you mean that it's actually flat, which is what I would expect? You only normally get any base angle at all if it's hand-finished by the tech after it's gone through the machine but you still won't get a full one degree, maybe 0.25 to 0.5 degree.
There's a two sided mistake here - you for thinking S&R (or anyone else in the UK) are even capable of servicing to that spec, and whoever accepted the skis with that request without clarifying or rejecting it. Only a high quality hand service would get anywhere near what you want but I wouldn't trust that either.
Your best solution to get it back to factory spec is to take them somewhere in a resort that has a Wintersteiger Scout or similar servicing machine. These are laser guided machines capable of varying the base and edge angles in quarter and half degree increments with ceramic polishing discs to ensure a perfect finish. They can definitely do 1 degree base and 3 degree side, I think they can do 1.25 base but would have to look it up.
These machines are upwards of €250k to buy; I haven't checked but I sincerely doubt that anywhere in the UK can justify that expense on a ski servicing machine so you're wasting your time even looking. I know of at least 3 Winterstigers in Courchevel/Meribel, if you're further afield I guess you'll have to do your own research. I'm not affiliated with them - just utterly delighted that my local shop was one of the first in France to get one. 
https://www.wintersteiger.com/en/Ski-Service-Rental-and-Lockers/Ski-Service-Machines/New-Machines-Ski-and-Snowboard-Service/Automated-Machines/260-Scout
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| There's a two sided mistake here - you for thinking S&R (or anyone else in the UK) are even capable of servicing to that spec, and whoever accepted the skis with that request without clarifying or rejecting it. Only a high quality hand service would get anywhere near what you want but I wouldn't trust that either. |
I manage ok without a Wintersteiger! Why do you not trust a hand service? Moreover, why shouldn't I trust my hand service!?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Je suis un Skieur, if you want it done really properly you need a jupiter
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@Thomasski, Because he has no idea what he is talking about.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Thomasski wrote: |
| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| There's a two sided mistake here - you for thinking S&R (or anyone else in the UK) are even capable of servicing to that spec, and whoever accepted the skis with that request without clarifying or rejecting it. Only a high quality hand service would get anywhere near what you want but I wouldn't trust that either. |
I manage ok without a Wintersteiger! Why do you not trust a hand service? Moreover, why shouldn't I trust my hand service!? |
I mean a hand service from somebody I don't know.
Edit - If the OP's willing to put all the time and effort in to buying the kit and learning how to use it, that's fair enough. But I'm going to make the assumption that someone who took their skis to S&R to get them serviced to "factory spec" probably isn't in that category.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 28-03-24 17:58; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| CEM wrote: |
| @Je suis un Skieur, if you want it done really properly you need a jupiter |
Hence why I said "Wintersteiger Scout or similar"! They're both Wintersteigers; you just might find it even harder to find a Jupiter.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| @Thomasski, Because he has no idea what he is talking about. |
Oh, pray, do tell how so, exactly?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Thomasski, I've edited the original post to make it clearer.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| @Thomasski, Because he has no idea what he is talking about. |
Oh, pray, do tell how so, exactly? |
As far as I can tell you don't live in the UK. And clearly have no idea what servicing capabilities exist. There is at least one poster here who could do a very professional job to those specs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Je suis un Skieur, are there many Jupiters in the field (in Europe)?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@zikomo, I do live in the UK and have never seen a Wintersteiger anywhere. Perhaps you could enlighten me, and more importantly the OP, where I might find one?
And I assume you are referencing Spyderjon - again, instead of just making baseless comments, if you have personally had skis serviced by him and were happy, why don't you recommend him to the OP?
Or is it just more important to you to score points on this forum instead of actually offering constructive advice and answering an OP's question?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Je suis un Skieur, are there many Jupiters in the field (in Europe)? |
Absolutely no idea. I'd have expected you to have a better idea than me with your Chamonix contacts?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
@zikomo, I do live in the UK and have never seen a Wintersteiger anywhere. Perhaps you could enlighten me, and more importantly the OP, where I might find one?
And I assume you are referencing Spyderjon - again, instead of just making baseless comments, if you have personally had skis serviced by him and were happy, why don't you recommend him to the OP?
Or is it just more important to you to score points on this forum instead of actually offering constructive advice and answering an OP's question? |
Nope. Just that you are factually wrong that there is only one machine in the whole wide world that could deliver the desired result. And that there are no other options. And definitely none in the UK.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@zikomo, I gave a recommendation to the OP that will solve his problem.
What's your recommendation?
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So according to S&R a service will be:
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Our ski & board services will incorporate 4 major processes of which each machine plays a role.
Belt - In general terms, to properly tune a Ski it is first put over a belt to help remove some minor scratches, oxidation, and reveal fresh material. Then any deep scratches or holes are filled in using industrial P-Tex which is extruded onto the base using a specially heated machine.
Stone - Once the P-Tex has cooled and set, the ski is scraped by hand then run over a "stone" which helps embed a structure on the ski base. This structure helps optimise the level of water needed under the ski for the snow conditions at hand.
Edge - Following the stone grind, the ski is edged using a rotating ceramic disk to sharpen and polish the edges.
Wax - Finally the skis are hot waxed by using a heated roller saturated with wax and then polished. For the ultimate finish, hand waxing is also an option, so speak to your workshop technicians for more details and options. |
The edging will be done by something like this I would imagine (which is a £500 piece of kit). Which can do side edge angles of 85 to 90 and base edge of "up to 2 degrees". Or am I missing something?
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
| @Je suis un Skieur, are there many Jupiters in the field (in Europe)? |
Absolutely no idea. I'd have expected you to have a better idea than me with your Chamonix contacts? |
No, not something we’ve talked about.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I can't imagine a Jupiter making sense outside of a hire shop or manufacturer?
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
@cav0, a run-of the-mill ski service machine that you're likely to see in the UK isn't capable of putting anything other than 1 degree on the side edge and I'm also surprised that you think you got 1 degree on the base - they're not usually capable of that either. Or by a grind, do you mean that it's actually flat, which is what I would expect? You only normally get any base angle at all if it's hand-finished by the tech after it's gone through the machine but you still won't get a full one degree, maybe 0.25 to 0.5 degree.
There's a two sided mistake here - you for thinking S&R (or anyone else in the UK) are even capable of servicing to that spec, and whoever accepted the skis with that request without clarifying or rejecting it. Only a high quality hand service would get anywhere near what you want but I wouldn't trust that either.
Your best solution to get it back to factory spec is to take them somewhere in a resort that has a Wintersteiger Scout or similar servicing machine. These are laser guided machines capable of varying the base and edge angles in quarter and half degree increments with ceramic polishing discs to ensure a perfect finish. They can definitely do 1 degree base and 3 degree side, I think they can do 1.25 base but would have to look it up.
These machines are upwards of €250k to buy; I haven't checked but I sincerely doubt that anywhere in the UK can justify that expense on a ski servicing machine so you're wasting your time even looking. I know of at least 3 Winterstigers in Courchevel/Meribel, if you're further afield I guess you'll have to do your own research. I'm not affiliated with them - just utterly delighted that my local shop was one of the first in France to get one.
https://www.wintersteiger.com/en/Ski-Service-Rental-and-Lockers/Ski-Service-Machines/New-Machines-Ski-and-Snowboard-Service/Automated-Machines/260-Scout |
Firstly, you’re way off to suggest that a “run-of-the-mill” service machine in the UK can only do side edges to one degree. Most machines are easily adjustable.
Secondly, the location where the OP had their skis serviced has a Wintersteiger Trimjet ceramic disc machine. This is just as accurate (and uses the same ceramic disc technology) as the Scout automated variant that you’ve referred to. Like you say, base edge angles of 1/1.25/1.5/2 degrees are possible. Obviously there will always be a small calibration tolerance, coupled with the possibility that new out of the wrapper, the skis in question might never have been 1.3 degrees anyway.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 29-03-24 10:56; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Layne wrote: |
The edging will be done by something like this I would imagine (which is a £500 piece of kit). Which can do side edge angles of 85 to 90 and base edge of "up to 2 degrees". Or am I missing something? |
Yeah, you’re missing the extra £30k+ to buy the actual machine in question…
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@crosshatch, yes, fair enough looks like S&R's (theoretical) servicing capabilities have improved since I last went there. I note that their small print does say they will do angles other than 1 degree if requested.
So it's down to whether the individual ski tech can reset the skis to the factory angles. It's possible but if they missed it the first time, would you trust them to put it right?
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@Je suis un Skieur, said machinery isn’t new and has been there many years.
I don’t know the whole chain of events that the OP experienced from start to finish. The issue could be miscommunication between sales person and tech doing the work, maybe? Everyone deserves a second chance.
I do love how this site is seemingly full of people who know best, when in actual fact, they know very little. Typical internet/Google folk that get a bit trigger-happy because they own a file guide.
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You know it makes sense.
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| crosshatch wrote: |
I do love how this site is seemingly full of people who know best, when in actual fact, they know very little. Typical internet/Google folk that get a bit trigger-happy because they own a file guide. |
100% accurate but don't forget the youtube posters as well
| cav0 wrote: |
What impact will this have on the skis. |
If you need to ask this then there is zero chance you'll even notice a difference
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@crosshatch, well I am going to take issue with those comments. I stopped getting skis serviced in the UK years ago precisely because I wanted the factory settings kept and nobody I approached could do it so I empathise with the OP's predicament.
I had the same issue in France for a long time and it was a French ski tech that told me the machines couldn't do it. The introduction of the Wintersteiger Scout (around 2017?) was the gamechanger as far as I was concerned. I've had crap services all over the place but never from a Scout.
The Trimjet looks like the budget version of Wintersteiger's servicing options so I'm not surprised that that's what you get in the UK. And all for the bargain price of £70. I know I'm a local so get looked after but I pay €45 for my full services.
I would hope we can agree that changing the side edge from 87 to 89 and back to 87 isn't going to do the OP any favours on the life of those edges. I wonder if S&R will compensate him for that? Says I, knowing full well that they will just blame it on a misunderstanding, offer to put it right and that'll be that. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Whitegoldsbrother wrote: |
| 100% accurate but don't forget the youtube posters as well |
And your brother.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Je suis un Skieur, you can take issue with my previous comments all you like. Replicating factory angles isn’t particularly difficult in most cases.
Whilst the Scout is a fantastic machine, you should be aware that it is an entry level automated service option for smaller, low-mid volume rental/service shops. Many different automated machines existed before the Scout and these were actually more complex and expensive. Similarly, more complex machines are currently also available.
As I’ve already said, the technology on the Trimjet is perfectly capable of delivering a finish just as precise as the Scout, which you insist on referring to. I’ve actually seen better work done on a Trimjet versus a Scout on one occasion. The main reason the Trimjet is cheaper than your overly-exaggerated Scout price is because it is solely a compact ceramic edge machine and does not include a sophisticated stone grinding unit with autofeed.
The correct prior steps need to be taken (stone grinding the base for re-setting base bevel and planing of the sidewall material) to allow the ceramic discs access to the side edge. This is where it comes down to operator knowledge and skill, which can sadly be lacking anywhere in the world.
Changing from 87 to 89 and back to 87 isn’t ideal but it would take a barely-noticeable amount of edge material removal to do so if required. This is also relative to each pair of skis - Black Crows tend to ship skis with thicker edges than many brands, such as Atomic, Blizzard, Elan, Salomon and many more.
To the OP, I would suggest you go back to the shop if possible or at least call them to discuss your requirements. Was your request noted? If so, how do you know it’s been ignored? Were you told on collection that the edges have been done to 1/1?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Je suis un Skieur,
tu es un autre plein de merde
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FAQ
No that's not my scene either. 
